3 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Given how Leopold ran that whole thing through smoke and mirrors? No. They accepted it because they'd been tricked.

Probably derailing the thread a bit too much but your talking about the Conference of Berlin where Leopold got his mandate on the Congo (with still undefined borders to the east)

I'm talking about him, a bit later, taking Katanga. (in short, a replacement in the GB diplomatic corps accepted his proposal by accident. By the time they realised it, it was a done deal)

Now that I think about it, do we have any reason to assume the Lion did, in fact, wish for the marriage, and did not deliberately set unacceptable terms so as to keep the war going without losing face by doing so?

I think the Lion may well have been gobsmacked when the Unicorn accepted- it's certainly possible.

2 hours ago, shosuko said:

@Shiba Gunichi

USA has been near Mexico and Canada both for 200 years and many American's don't know the holidays of these nations. Even delegates to foreign countries do not always know the customs of those they are seeking to interact with, and this includes modern technology and resources...

Eight hundred years of learning to deal across cultural and linguistic divides, two hundred in direct contact with this specific culture living right across the border, and your best argument is "buyer's remorse after phoning in the negotiations around the single most important person in their entire clan"?

You're... really proving my point for me.

41 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Eight hundred years of learning to deal across cultural and linguistic divides, two hundred in direct contact with this specific culture living right across the border, and your best argument is "buyer's remorse after phoning in the negotiations around the single most important person in their entire clan"?

You're... really proving my point for me.

Actually my best argument is that the Unicorn haven't spent 800 years of "learning to deal across cultural and linguistic divides." Do you think they were a roving UN or something? The biggest divergence of the Unicorn - Meishodo - was the invention of the Qolat which specifically targeted the Kirin for take over as they left Rokugan from the very beginning. The Unicorn aren't different because they absorbed other cultures and adapted - The reality is they had 1 culture that infected them. Meishodo takes power away from the Kami, and Shinjo knew it, but she wasn't in power enough to set aside the alliances she had forged in the foreign lands (which the Qolat concocted to trap her and her clan)

The Unicorn aren't known for adapting to other cultures - they are as stuck in their ways as the rest of Rokugan, the ways are just different. Its even spelled out in this fiction with the entire curved blades analogy - the Unicorn aren't changing or adapting. They still rule openly with their hearts without an understanding of Honne and Tatemae. Alternasty agreed without fully understanding or considering what she was agreeing to, a common situation. Being an ambassador or leader doesn't make you immune to bad decisions. The Phoenix and Crab have been next to the Scorpion and Crane for a 1000 years! And still get made the fool at times. Even the Crane and Scorpion get the best of each other at times.

I think the Unicorn are getting a lot of flak as if this entire situation is unimaginable, when the problem is that the fiction just sucks. The fiction doesn't sell us on the situation. This is the same issue I had with the Lion fiction - Arasou dies, and it was unbelievable - literally - you can't read that and believe it the way they said it. Arasou dying to 2 arrows when wearing full armor? It is absolutely ridiculous. The writers needed him to die the same way they needed Alternasty to be engaged and then throw it in the Lion's face to make a war... The writer just sucked at doing it. The situation (dying on a battlefield / agreeing to an engagement then finding it was a trap) is fine, the problem is the crap fiction that fails to convey that situation to us.

It also seems weird that nobody knew the Ikoma daimyo was married. There should be some ambassador to the Lion who knew all about the clan's movers and shakers, who could have told Altansarnai what's up. The fact she didn't know speaks poorly of either Unicorn diplomats (if they didn't know what they ought to have), or Altansarnai herself (if she didn't ask). Either way, somebody in the Unicorn fumbled bad.

Not letting anyone get me down. Loved the fiction. Thought it was good.

36 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Ihink the Unicorn are getting a lot of flak as if this entire situation is unimaginable, when the problem is that the fiction just sucks. The fiction doesn't sell us on the situation. This is the same issue I had with the Lion fiction - Arasou dies, and it was unbelievable - literally - you can't read that and believe it the way they said it. Arasou dying to 2 arrows when wearing full armor? It is absolutely ridiculous. The writers needed him to die the same way they needed Alternasty to be engaged and then throw it in the Lion's face to make a war... The writer just sucked at doing it. The situation (dying on a battlefield / agreeing to an engagement then finding it was a trap) is fine, the problem is the crap fiction that fails to convey that situation to us.

I'd think you would be suprised how easily you can die from having things shot into you. Especially the eye, I believe one was.

1 minute ago, Shu2jack said:

I'd think you would be suprised how easily you can die from having things shot into you. Especially the eye, I believe one was.

He is no xiahou dun, it seems.

The lack of a specific consequence from an event doesn't mean there is no risk. Just means you lucked out.

22 minutes ago, Shu2jack said:

I'd think you would be suprised how easily you can die from having things shot into you. Especially the eye, I believe one was.

I think you'd be surprised how difficult it is to be shot in the eye without actually looking UP into the arrows. It is very unusual for a soldier charging forward to be looking up... Even without being trained, try looking up while running, let me know how well that works for you. It certainly doesn't help you move faster considering you're leaning back to look up...

Charging forward a samurai in full armor is practically immune to arrows.

59 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Actually my best argument is that the Unicorn haven't spent 800 years of "learning to deal across cultural and linguistic divides." Do you think they were a roving UN or something?

No.

I think they were a people who managed to survive eight centuries of traveling through lands often claimed by hostile or opportunistic cultures, and they didn't pull that off by constant warfare. They have to have learned how to read others across vast cultural and linguistic gaps. Your resistance to that is truly incomprehensible since you yourself go on to cite Shinjo's alliances in foreign lands when discussing her inability to uproot the Qolat infiltration

And you grossly mistake my intent if you think I'm ragging on the Unicorn rather than the fiction. My contention all along has been that as written, the fiction does the Unicorn's talents a grave disservice by making them out to be grossly incompetent at something they have no business being grossly incompetent at under the circumstances we are given for this tale.

I think it's important to remember that the Unicorn are not foreign diplomats trying to make deals with a neighboring nation. It's people who, after traveling for 800 years, have come home and intend to stay.

This isn't USA/Canada, it's Montana/Wyoming. And since Rokugan is "home," 200 years is a veeery long time to get comfortable with the traditions of "home," even if you insist on retaining some of the foreign culture(s) you adapted to previously.

29 minutes ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

I think it's important to remember that the Unicorn are not foreign diplomats trying to make deals with a neighboring nation. It's people who, after traveling for 800 years, have come home and intend to stay.

This isn't USA/Canada, it's Montana/Wyoming. And since Rokugan is "home," 200 years is a veeery long time to get comfortable with the traditions of "home," even if you insist on retaining some of the foreign culture(s) you adapted to previously.

To be fair though, from Shinjo Altarleaver's response, they have NO interest in getting comfortable with the old traditions, they're more interested in changing everyone else. Ironically, they're big on not leaving behind their ways, even when that's exactly what they seem to be doing with their Rokugani ways.

5 hours ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Now that I think about it, do we have any reason to assume the Lion did, in fact, wish for the marriage, and did not deliberately set unacceptable terms so as to keep the war going without losing face by doing so?

Thank you. This was even addressed in the story. If only offhand.

If the Lion want to fight they will find a reason to fight. So will any other clan that thinks they have the upper hand and something to prove.

14 hours ago, WHW said:

Uh, I'm pretty sure divorces were a part of the setting in the AEG game too. I remember some of the RPG books reminding the leader that marriages have been called off due to many things, including war and diplomatic shenanigans.

They were part of the Old5R for sure. There was even a word, Demodori, for divorced women (it means returnee ). I don't understand why everybody is going nuts about this.

6 hours ago, shosuko said:

The fiction doesn't sell us on the situation.

Nail on the head.

In a world without Ide Tadaji... the Unicorn get stomped on politically...

The problem with most of the stories so far has been a lack of understanding of the setting, from most of the new writers and a the same old having to create a reason for conflict from the old ones. Which they have never been good at.

The Crane story comes across as an soap-opera episode with the writers swapping Doji He for Doji Her.

The Lion story showed a lack of understanding for how arrows work. They are not guns and do not have that shallow of a arc. Add to this that the Yumi is a shortbow not a compoundbow and you get the issues.

The Dragon, Crab and Phoenix stories where will written. And show at least some knowledge of the setting by the authors.

Then we come to the Unicorn. First off the idea that the Unicorn don't understand Rokugan has never been an issue in the stories before, they understand it they just don't care. The whole well we did not know that a wife would be divorced and lose her family is just BS. Add to this that there is a child being separated from her mother and it gets even worse in a culture where family is everything. That's what I have problems with their.

On to the Curved blades issue. The problem here is not the Scimitar used by the Unicorn since they are using a weapon that works well from horseback. In truth from the picture and stories we have, We know that the use of weapons other then Katanas on the battlefield is common. Armies mostly use Yari, Yumi, Naginata, and No-dachi when fighting do to reach. The problem would be with carrying and honoring a Scimitar over a Daishō. Which has never been an issue in the story since the Unicorn have always carried a Daishō for appearances along with there Scimitar.

The whole meishōdō thing is laughable. First off The Iuchi attempt to hide this from their xenophobic cousins as much as possible. So they would not be giving demonstrations of it in front of possible enemies. Second when use the Iuchi cast it in such away to make it seem like Rokugan magic. So a non-shugenja courtier would have not idea that they where not just seeing a magic display.

The main issues that most of rokugan have with the unicorns is there use of furs and leather, and that they consume red meat. This is a far cry from they use curved swords or use a magic that we don't like even though we can't tell they'er using it.

On the land issue, when the Unicorn returned the Crane Champion spoke for them in the Imperial court. The Emperor granted them all lands that had belonged to the Kirin, so there should be no disputed over that lands unless the lions have found a new claim to them. it would not be some old claim be cause The Emperor had already ruled in the Unicorns favor.

And finally the idea that a Clan Champion would marry down and give up her Title to stop a war against an enemy that they have beaten multiple time is the past is at the very least laughable. I understand what is being portrayed here. The writer is using an old Japaneses tradition of marring off one of your children to secure the loyalty of another great house, but you would never marry the lord of your house off to another house vassal unless they where far superior to you on the battlefield.

5 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

The whole meishōdō thing is laughable. First of The Iuchi attempt to hide this from their xenophobic cousins as much as possible. So they would not be giving demonstrations of it from of possible enemies. Second when use the Iuchi cast it in such away to make it seem like Rokugan magic. So a non-shugenja courtier would have not idea that they where not just seeing a magic display.

If meishodo is a religious crisis in Rokugan, wait until the Unicorn start worshipping the Shi-Tien Yen-Wang again.

7 minutes ago, tenchi2a said:

And finally the idea that a Clan Champion would marry down and give up her Title to stop a war against an enemy that they have beaten multiple time is the past is at the very least laughable. I understand what is being portrayed here. The writer is using an old Japaneses tradition of marring off one of your children to secure the loyalty of another great house, but you would never marry the lord of your house off to another house vassal unless they where far superior to you on the battlefield.

I feel like this is trying to recreate the whole Naleesh-Shikei tension, and it has no business doing so. And even then, that conflict was over who joins who's house; As Shikei was the Mirumoto heir(I don't know a lot about the dragon clan, but leaving his position he would destroy the Mirumoto) and Naleesh was the reincarnation of the Kami Shinjo, which would be absurd to have a clan's Kami leave to join another house.

Other than that, Unicorn do use marriage as a bargaining chip in negotiation, because this is how the Unicorn survived and adapted when in the Burning Sands. A lot of the clan values they developed they learned through marriages. A clan champion or daimyo would never find themselves in such a position though... unless something was arranged before they took the mantle. I'm not 100% sure, but I don't think Naleesh nor the clan was aware of her divine presence when the idea of marrying her off to Shikei was brought to the negotiation table.

@tenchi2a While I sort of understand most of your complaints, it's probably worth making the point that a line must be drawn under the AEG fiction.

Although Old5R and Nu5R have a lot of common elements, the Nu5R canon is distinct. All we can base our understanding of the Clans on is the very small body of FFG fiction.

I'm as guilty of it as anyone, but we should probably stop looking at these stories through an Old5R lens.

The Unicorn now may is not totally like the Unicorn in old (i.e. maybe they don't care about hiding the meishodo nature). I was hoping for stepping far away from Moto Horde but we will see...

Anyway, so Daiyu is father to Shono, Haruko and Yasamura. Still had time to father Shahai? No more Shahai? Shahai is now someone else's daughter?

7 hours ago, shosuko said:

I think the Unicorn are getting a lot of flak as if this entire situation is unimaginable, when the problem is that the fiction just sucks.

I think the real problem is that the fic is written in a way that is quite different from your "standard" L5R writing. It is a lot more straightforward with its storytelling and leaves a lot to the reader while not trying hard to be overtly complicated, dramatic or deep (a thing that is essentially a key feature of the L5R fics - I mean, the trying hard). I can see why people who like the "standard" L5R stories would dislike this one.

For example, I dislike the Old5R fics and hate "standard" L5R writing, but I love this fic and I think it is the single best one so far (the Dragon is a solid second, then comes a rift, the Crab, a small rift of mediocrity, the Crane, the Phoenix, another rift, then the hot pile of the Lion). I'am rather picky and hard to appease, but even after several re-reads, I still can't find anything that is wrong with the Unicorn story. Really, my only problem is that some paragraphs feel like space fillers, the editing with the small pics is horrendous, and I personally dislike Kamoko being portrayed as "brash" (this character trait must die in fire in general IMHO).

5 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

I think it's important to remember that the Unicorn are not foreign diplomats trying to make deals with a neighboring nation. It's people who, after traveling for 800 years, have come home and intend to stay.

This isn't USA/Canada, it's Montana/Wyoming. And since Rokugan is "home," 200 years is a veeery long time to get comfortable with the traditions of "home," even if you insist on retaining some of the foreign culture(s) you adapted to previously.

It's closer to compare it to Texas and California. Both are near each other geographically, share some cultural background, but are two drastically different places that would never adopt each other's ways despite being the same country.

The problem is when adapting to "home" means giving up your cultural identity, can you really adapt?

1 minute ago, RandomJC said:

The problem is when adapting to "home" means giving up your cultural identity, can you really adapt?

On something as fundamentally important as marriage? In 200 years? Absolutely yes.