53 minutes ago, WHW said:

The thing is, there is no need for religious tolerance in a world where religion has observable, provable beyond doubt effects comparable to our own experience with laws of nature. It's not about tolerance or intolerance. In Rokugan, religion is hygiene of the soul, and abandoning it not only dooms you, but spreads the bad to the others. Forget the modern nature of religion (basically, a bunch of equal philosophies that have nothing that makes one more true than the other), and instead look at it like it's modern medicine - and these "other religions" are anti-vaccinners, creating major health risk for the entire Empire. And it's Phoenix job to take care of Empire's soul.

Basically, if in your setting your "religion" is proved to be true, you can't really look at competetive religions like you do with in our modern world.

I don't think that analogy quite works since the Unicorns practices also have provable effects.

This is just using different methods to get to the same answer.

Anti-Vacciners thing is more for Pure Land Sect, which is for now 100% harmful.

Meishodo and Phoenix Magic, here is another analogy:

Imagine that Phoenix are a relatively good standing country, which has earned it's wealth using non-green energy sources, but abandoned them after becoming strong enough to not rely on it. Instead, they switched to pro-green energy that might be more technologically demanding than the previous massive blood-coal burning, but also doesn't pollute the environment, and overall might not offer the same short term benefit, but is much better for everyone long-term.

Then, imagine Unicorn as a country that had to do everything to survive, and one of these things was basing it's power production on heavy, environment-unfriendly sources and production methods. However, this allowed them to not only survive, but actually catapult themselves from poverty and it became one of the pillars of Unicorn's country, giving it the edge that allows it to remain competitive.

Now, imagine that Phoenix and Unicorn met, and Phoenix can't believe how short-sighted Unicorn are, destroying the planet for something so immediate and pointless, while Unicorn can't understand how Phoenix can value planet more than hundreds of Unicorn that could go starving if they decided to yeah, shut down Meishodo and start the costly process of totally switching to the Isawa-approved green maho plants.

...I mean, Shintao plants.

That presumes Meishodo is harmful to the environment and there's been no compelling evidence of that.

The Phoenix stance on meishodo boils down to this: the Phoenix want know every thing, they are the keepers of knowledge. They don't know meishodo or how it works, it creates anxiety. The phoenix believe they should know what is best for the empire, but if they relax their stance and meishodo turns out to be a bad thing, they will lose face.

They think meishodo is like maho, when we know its just another eay to do things.

7 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Phoenix fans are just leery because at no point whatsoever during AEG's run did our guys really get to be heroic as a whole- the closest would be the end of the Khan's March, and even that boiled away into a pretty tepid scene where Naizen tells them to piss up a rope and they just take it- while enduring decades of, "you're just closeted bloodspeakers," or, even worse, "you're always either wrong, irrelevant, or evil."

The Clan War narrative really left some unfortunate scars, and it's hammered the importance of a strong beginning for a faction people are supposed to root for into us.

I understand this position, but at the same time I feel that the Black Scrolls (and items of that ilk) are integral to the Phoenix archetype. Isawa created those scrolls. It only made sense that the council attempted to find them. They are, after all, the clan of arcane knowledge and mysticism. Who but them could explore such an avenue?

Tadaka is the iconic Phoenix character. He defined the clan for me. His story demands a redemption of sorts. Without the negative elements you speak of, Tadaka cannot become Tadaka, so they are necessary.

On religion as a reason for war: This would be a great topic to explore for the Phoenix, if done right. There are so many ways this could elevate their story to a place it has never been before. Every player wants to see his or her clan shine and be 'heroic', but having a more meaningful story line will serve them more. They need purpose and definition. Phoenix have always lacked there. The heroism should naturally flow from exploring those areas of the clan first.

7 hours ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

Anyway, my overall point of this whole thing is just to say that I don't think ANY clan coming out of the gate swinging as the "bad guys" would be good for the game, as it could stain them for the rest of the card game's existence.

I completely disagree with this sentiment. In the early days of the game, the Scorpion were very popular. They were the villains and it was great for the game. If anything, that beginning made them even more interesting. It's all in how it's handled. You could tell early on that the Scorpion were John Wick's favourite clan (more than even the Dragon). His plot wheeled on that clan's machinations.

Another example: The Crab and Kisada. Kisada was ruthless in his original incarnation. Yakamo was brash and uncaring. These two characters were the most popular members of their clan. Was their depiction as 'villains' a detriment to their popularity? I would say definitely not. If anything, that depiction cemented an archetype in the minds of many. It defined the Crab.

Lastly, the Unicorn could have been categorized as "good guys" during the early stages of clan war. They were squeeky clean, and nobody cared about them. The spotlight stayed away from this clan up until the Kolat and Chagatai.

Bad or Good, the more important concern = Is the story well written. That's what matters, IMO.

33 minutes ago, Anemura said:

Tadaka is the iconic Phoenix character.

This was a mistake tho. Tadaka was pretty much everything what was wrong with the Phoenix, from being an arrogant idiot to practicing maho and having no real qualms about it. Him becoming the iconic Phoenix character ruined the clan's reputation. Changing this and, say, offing Tadaka would be a big step to the good direction.

7 hours ago, Anemura said:

Stuff

Well, then it's a good thing we're not talking about a 25 year old, and now dead, game and story, huh?

Turns out, not everyone likes Scorpion nor thinks them being the "bad" guys is good for the game. They have forever just been the throw away, mustache twirling, terribly written clan to me, and I think they're very detrimental to the game. I was very much hoping they'd get a "facelift" this go around, but so far all signs point to that not happening.

Does it have to be that way? Of course not, but that leads me to my point that I think you missed.

Antagonists are good for the story, obviously. That doesn't mean they can't be taken too far. Going too far is what makes for bad writing and storytelling (which the old game had in droves), and I think setting up a clan to be little more than an antagonist out of the box is bad and lazy writing/storytelling.

This is mostly my opinion of course, but I have had three new Lion players in my store switch their clan after the Unicorn fiction because "Lion are a bunch of warmongering asshats", so clearly it's not just me.

33 minutes ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

Turns out, not everyone likes Scorpion nor thinks them being the "bad" guys is good for the game. They have forever just been the throw away, mustache twirling, terribly written clan to me, and I think they're very detrimental to the game. I was very much hoping they'd get a "facelift" this go around, but so far all signs point to that not happening.

I think Shoju being alive is a good starting point. What made the Scorpion bad was Kachiko being a bitter, bitter character in Clan Wars and beyond. Shoju was developed in the fiction to be a more noble, "underhand of the emperor" type Scorpion leader which may allow us to explore more of the "we did this dishonorable thing for a reason" not just "we did this because we're honorless dogs."

It would be refreshing for the Scorpion to admit they believe in honor and bushido like the other clans do, but that their priorities are different. Rather than holding their own honor with such high regard, they see loyalty as the supreme goal and would sacrifice their own honor for their duty to their clan and empire.

No clue if this is the Scorpion we will see... but with Shoju alive and possibly no SCC things could be quite different. If the Scorpion clan fiction is done as well as the Phoenix, Crab, or Dragon then we'll know very well what Scorpion will be going forward. Sadly, the Crane, Unicorn, and Mantis fictions don't really sell me on them or their identity. Yoritomo was only a brief mention in his fiction... At least the Shadowlands are in full force, being pushed back by Hotaru in the Crane fiction, and the Unicorn are marking their stand against their villainous influence as well. /sarcasm

3 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Much better stuff.

That would be fantastic and more or less what I was looking for. I understand FFG won't drastically change any clan, but I feel all of the clans need(ed) something.

16 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Hida spits on the ground, then, in turn, he stares Mirumoto and Shinjo each in the eyes and says "If the both of you don't shut the **** up I'm gonna shove this tetsubo straight up both yer asses"

Quote

"yer"

Hida are Dwarves, confirmed.

10 hours ago, WHW said:

The thing is, there is no need for religious tolerance in a world where religion has observable, provable beyond doubt effects comparable to our own experience with laws of nature.

This, I think, is where things get iffy.
The elemental kami, and the magic they provide, are clearly obvious when a shugenja casts an illusion or causes fires to instantly die, etc.

Speaking with the spirits, or ancestors, etc. is not something anyone else gets to be a part of; only the shugenja do. So when it comes to the actual religious bits of Rokugani religion, it's very much, "the shugenja say so, therefore it is so."

I think a good way to look at the Phoenix is somewhat similar to the Catholic Church, and this cult is the very beginning of Protestantism. Or something similar.

8 hours ago, Anemura said:

I understand this position, but at the same time I feel that the Black Scrolls (and items of that ilk) are integral to the Phoenix archetype.

They were integral to an identity that never really gelled over more than twenty years of attempting to make it work. The Phoenix are a clan of contradictions, not a clan of "woo-hoo, maho!" but that was not what people took away from the old narrative. Once again, if you're trying to get someone to root for them, it's a terrible way to start, as can be demonstrated by existing history- the Phoenix fanbase under AEG's tenure was small, rabid, and divided against itself. Almost every other fanbase was categorically more likely to be on the same page about what they liked and disliked seeing their Clan do.

8 hours ago, Anemura said:

Tadaka is the iconic Phoenix character. He defined the clan for me. His story demands a redemption of sorts. Without the negative elements you speak of, Tadaka cannot become Tadaka, so they are necessary.

Redemption stories only work if people buy them- and when you have to keep tarnishing a clan so you can keep redeeming it because you've decided that's their thing, you have thoroughly screwed up the basic duties of ongoing storytelling. The Phoenix never got out from under the shadow of the Clan War- and that is why I'm nervous on behalf of the Lion, Unicorn, and others whose debuts have been... less than stellar.

I actually think the Phoenix are rolling in clover so far, in terms of portrayal this time around*. My worries are based upon what happened to the Phoenix last time around, but are vested in other clans.

7 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

This was a mistake tho. Tadaka was pretty much everything what was wrong with the Phoenix, from being an arrogant idiot to practicing maho and having no real qualms about it. Him becoming the iconic Phoenix character ruined the clan's reputation. Changing this and, say, offing Tadaka would be a big step to the good direction.

They don't even need to kill him- to my mind, they've already basically fixed this problem, because the first Phoenix we get to know this time around is Tsukune.


* The Masters are presented as distant Ivory Tower types convinced they know better than everyone else, which is fitting, but Tsukune is downright awesome, the Asako in this Unicorn story is, if not the greatest samurai, at least relatably human in her motivations, and so forth.

One of things I'm championing is giving each clan some version of heroic archetype that their POV character tries to embrace their Clans ideal of Honor, while also providing us with villains from each Clan that showcase the darker side of that Clan.

Basically, give me more what everyone hype Shoju to be; a multidimensional hero.

EDIT
We don't know if Meishodo is "green-friendly". Phoenix claim it isn't. They believe they have evidence. Again, try to look at these conflicts without preassumptions from the older incarnation of the game; this time around, it might be really that Meishodo was slowly building up enough disturbances in the harmony of universe that it's symptoms are showing just now. Or maybe Phoenixes are barking at a wrong tree altogether.

Both sides have their reasons and neither is really right or wrong, which is why the conflict is interesting to me.

15 minutes ago, WHW said:

One of things I'm championing is giving each clan some version of heroic archetype that their POV character tries to embrace their Clans ideal of Honor, while also providing us with villains from each Clan that showcase the darker side of that Clan.

Part of why I'm so happy with the Phoenix thus far- Tsukune is clearly heroic, while the Masters are shown to be calculating and convinced of their primacy.

16 minutes ago, WHW said:

We don't know if Meishodo is "green-friendly". Phoenix claim it isn't. They believe they have evidence. Again, try to look at these conflicts without preassumptions from the older incarnation of the game; this time around, it might be really that Meishodo was slowly building up enough disturbances in the harmony of universe that it's symptoms are showing just now. Or maybe Phoenixes are barking at a wrong tree altogether.

Both sides have their reasons and neither is really right or wrong, which is why the conflict is interesting to me.

Yep. As I've said (repeatedly) elsewhere, this is a good version of inter-clan strife.

It's also worth noting that Masters will be probably easily hateable, but I hope that they will have a reason for their actions and in the end, they will be acting in a way they perceive to be the best for (them, their Clan, their loved ones, or other priorities they pick).

Of course, the Meishodo conflict might easily turn out to be badly handled - if Phoenix are 100% right, Unicorns will be pretty unhappy. If Phoenix are clearly wrong, Phoenix will be unhappy. If truth is in the middle, some people might consider it to be boring; and if truth is kind of Schroedingers Story Prize Truth, I will be personally sad, because I don't want story prizes to retroactively "justify" positions of story-players (I don't want to say "Clans", because I really want Clans to be little less unitary and monolithic in their agendas).

3 hours ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

This is mostly my opinion of course, but I have had three new Lion players in my store switch their clan after the Unicorn fiction because "Lion are a bunch of warmongering asshats", so clearly it's not just me.

This is alarming to me. The old guard Lion will surely stick with the clan, but if the faction can't attract new blood it'll be in a really terrible position.

3 hours ago, Bayushi Tsubaki said:

Hida are Dwarves, confirmed.

Pretty sure at one point, TV Tropes had the Yasuki War listed as an example of Elves vs Dwarves.

13 hours ago, shineyorkboy said:

That presumes Meishodo is harmful to the environment and there's been no compelling evidence of that.

I dunno: those tendrils of magic were dark...

22 hours ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

I'm hoping, more than anything, Unicorn and Phoenix become staunch allies soon after release. Shugenja cavalry? Yes please...

Oh man. This is why aeg nerfed us. But yes, those were the days. I ran a City of Tears water shugs deck for most of celestial edition. It had an answer for everything and kill actions to spare. And naval. Mmmm, naval. And two Masters of water. Best military deck ever.

7 hours ago, Isawa Kioshi said:

Well, then it's a good thing we're not talking about a 25 year old, and now dead, game and story, huh?

Turns out, not everyone likes Scorpion nor thinks them being the "bad" guys is good for the game. They have forever just been the throw away, mustache twirling, terribly written clan to me, and I think they're very detrimental to the game. I was very much hoping they'd get a "facelift" this go around, but so far all signs point to that not happening.

Does it have to be that way? Of course not, but that leads me to my point that I think you missed.

Antagonists are good for the story, obviously. That doesn't mean they can't be taken too far. Going too far is what makes for bad writing and storytelling (which the old game had in droves), and I think setting up a clan to be little more than an antagonist out of the box is bad and lazy writing/storytelling.

This is mostly my opinion of course, but I have had three new Lion players in my store switch their clan after the Unicorn fiction because "Lion are a bunch of warmongering asshats", so clearly it's not just me.

The base of that 22 year old story is being redeveloped here for a reason. That lore made the game what it was. It will never truly die, just change.

The Clan War era Scorpion were "terribly written"? Please explain your opinion here. What clan was 'well written' in the old lore then?

Not every clan has to be liked by every player. This is not the function of good or bad story telling. I liked the Unicorn, but their good stories were few and far between. Shoju was a traitor and Kachiko was a schemer, the Scorpion were ruined, and still they were one of the more popular clans in the CCG... Your point does not follow. Creating an antagonist "out of the box" is in no way "bad and lazy writing/storytelling" in of itself. Bad and lazy writing is bad and lazy writing. Whether that applies to an antagonist, or a protagonist. The strength of the story is not tied to either path.

On "Going too far": This is a matter of perspective. Some of the most iconic characters and clan moments were created from extremes. Chagatai's march on the Lion was phenomenal. A pure conqueror. Shoju and the Scorpion _were_ the pre-Clan War story line. A traitor and his devoted followers. Kisada is beloved by most Crab players. A disgruntled lord that made dark pacts. Did they go too far? They made extreme choices, sure, but their actions made for great story line.

14 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

This was a mistake tho. Tadaka was pretty much everything what was wrong with the Phoenix , from being an arrogant idiot to practicing maho and having no real qualms about it. Him becoming the iconic Phoenix character ruined the clan's reputation. Changing this and, say, offing Tadaka would be a big step to the good direction.

Tadaka was an excellent example of the price of knowledge. He embodied what it meant to be Phoenix. That with all of his power and drive, a few wrong choices could lead to catastrophic ruin. Only in his case, that ruin surrounded him instead of consuming him. He actually withstood the taint long enough to be able to take down Tsuke and perform his duty on the Day of Thunder. It was actually Tsuke that represented the more negative aspect of what could happen. He actually turned on his people.

IMO: Tadaka is a necessary and integral element of the Phoenix archetype.

Lastly, I don't think there's any one character or incident that could be said to have "ruined a clan's reputation". YMMV

7 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

They were integral to an identity that never really gelled over more than twenty years of attempting to make it work. The Phoenix are a clan of contradictions, not a clan of "woo-hoo, maho!" but that was not what people took away from the old narrative. Once again, if you're trying to get someone to root for them, it's a terrible way to start, as can be demonstrated by existing history- the Phoenix fanbase under AEG's tenure was small, rabid, and divided against itself . Almost every other fanbase was categorically more likely to be on the same page about what they liked and disliked seeing their Clan do.

Redemption stories only work if people buy them- and when you have to keep tarnishing a clan so you can keep redeeming it because you've decided that's their thing, you have thoroughly screwed up the basic duties of ongoing storytelling. The Phoenix never got out from under the shadow of the Clan War - and that is why I'm nervous on behalf of the Lion, Unicorn, and others whose debuts have been... less than stellar.

I actually think the Phoenix are rolling in clover so far, in terms of portrayal this time around*. My worries are based upon what happened to the Phoenix last time around, but are vested in other clans.

I think the Phoenix "never got out from under the shadow of Clan War" because their stories outside of Clan War were never strong enough to pull them out. Clan War became clan defining for Phoenix. Where as Chagatai's reign became the predominant vision for the Unicorn. Phoenix never got that push. I had hope with Rich Wulf's treatment of Shiba Aikune, and a few characters like Isawa Hochiu and even Isawa Nakamuro, but their arcs fell well short of their potential.

I'm not sure any lead writer wanted the Phoenix to be perpetually tainted and then redeemed. Maho may have been his/her vehicle to show that that the price of knowledge should always be tied to the clan in some way. Do you find that position unjustified?

Last, I'm unsure on what you mean by "[Black Scrolls] were integral... to the identity of the Phoenix"? Isawa created those scrolls. Who else but the Phoenix would be better suited to studying them in an attempt to stop the Shadowlands? To me, the Black Scrolls themselves were never the issue in terms of fan popularity. There are a multitude of reasons why the Phoenix have never been the most popular clan (We can discuss them in the Phoenix thread if you would like?). I don't think it can all be attributed to the Black Scrolls, or even Maho.

As a looong time Phoenix member (I'm playing them as well as Crane in the LCG), I know what you mean by the "small fanbase divided against itself". My previous handle on the older Phoenix forums was "Isawa Kaneda". It was quite difficult getting a consensus on anything there. That said, there were various reasons for this (we can discuss this too). I believe I remember you from there, and another user by the name of Isawa Kousei.

idk - I'm not a Phoenix clan player

One of the things I always liked about the Phoenix was their conflicted passed. They are The Shugenja clan, but they are also the clan who's human leader took control of the clan, not their Kami. The Shiba has the Champion but the Isawa are the ones who really run things.

What is so fun about this is that the reason they did is that they already had power, and knew how to use Maho which was particularly strong against the Kami. It's like Meishodo - the Kami Shinjo was unable to use it, and it kinda took power away from her that her clan used it too...

Now here we are with Meishodo being looked down upon by the Phoenix - I think they're just jealous they can't openly use Maho. In my RPG's I often use the Phoenix as a secret-maho-cult clan. They have the open face of observing the Kami and the elemental balance, but secretly they know blood is thicker than water-kami...

4 hours ago, Anemura said:

I think the Phoenix "never got out from under the shadow of Clan War" because their stories outside of Clan War were never strong enough to pull them out. Clan War became clan defining for Phoenix. Where as Chagatai's reign became the predominant vision for the Unicorn. Phoenix never got that push. I had hope with Rich Wulf's treatment of Shiba Aikune, and a few characters like Isawa Hochiu and even Isawa Nakamuro, but their arcs fell well short of their potential.

I think when they did get a partisan on the ST, it was always in the form of individual tales like Isawa Mizuhiko's tango with Handan. The Clan as a whole was generally conspicuous by its absence.

4 hours ago, Anemura said:

I'm not sure any lead writer wanted the Phoenix to be perpetually tainted and then redeemed. Maho may have been his/her vehicle to show that that the price of knowledge should always be tied to the clan in some way. Do you find that position unjustified?

Clearly.

4 hours ago, Anemura said:

Last, I'm unsure on what you mean by "[Black Scrolls] were integral... to the identity of the Phoenix"? Isawa created those scrolls. Who else but the Phoenix would be better suited to studying them in an attempt to stop the Shadowlands? To me, the Black Scrolls themselves were never the issue in terms of fan popularity.

Allow me to have someone else answer this for you:

4 hours ago, shosuko said:

idk - I'm not a Phoenix clan player

[...] In my RPG's I often use the Phoenix as a secret-maho-cult clan. They have the open face of observing the Kami and the elemental balance, but secretly they know blood is thicker than water-kami...

The popular perception of the Black Scrolls in particular, and maho in general as the Phoenix go-to identity directly stems from the uneven rollout they experienced.

And thus, once again, I remain leery of subjecting anyone to a slipshod debut. It's pretty hard to recover from.

5 hours ago, Anemura said:

Tadaka was an excellent example of the price of knowledge. He embodied what it meant to be Phoenix. That with all of his power and drive, a few wrong choices could lead to catastrophic ruin. Only in his case, that ruin surrounded him instead of consuming him. He actually withstood the taint long enough to be able to take down Tsuke and perform his duty on the Day of Thunder. It was actually Tsuke that represented the more negative aspect of what could happen. He actually turned on his people.

Tadaka was an excellent example of the price of blind hubris. I can't remember if he could extract any meaningful knowledge from any of his awful deeds - and now I mean knowledge that didn't lead to even more awful deeds. Tsuke has nothing on him, that poor guy only got "Tadaka'd" on the way.

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

Tadaka was an excellent example of the price of blind hubris. I can't remember if he could extract any meaningful knowledge from any of his awful deeds - and now I mean knowledge that didn't lead to even more awful deeds. Tsuke has nothing on him, that poor guy only got "Tadaka'd" on the way.

Tadaka's main motivation to fight the Shadowlands was based on revenge, not hubris. He hated the Shadowlands because of what happened with his ancestor Akuma. That incident fueled his passion to find new ways to defeat the Shadowlands. Here's an excerpt from the source material about it:"[Tadaka] had seen more evil and danger than most any Elemental Master could ever dream -- and has been the source of more destruction towards the denizens of the Shadowlands than even the Kuni know " (Page 76, ***). Meaning, he used what he learned in the Crab lands and in the Shadowlands against the Shadowlands itself -- to a measure that few could hope to match. Awful deeds without meaningful knowledge indeed...

Even later on, when he opened the Black Scrolls, it was all to defeat the Shadowlands. His rationale did not change. It was a mistake, yes, but he learned from it and never surrendered his mind to the Shadowlands. That's a stalwart character. That's a character set up for redemption, which happened during the Day of Thunder.

2 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I think when they did get a partisan on the ST, it was always in the form of individual tales like Isawa Mizuhiko's tango with Handan. The Clan as a whole was generally conspicuous by its absence.

Clearly.

Allow me to have someone else answer this for you:

The popular perception of the Black Scrolls in particular, and maho in general as the Phoenix go-to identity directly stems from the uneven rollout they experienced.

And thus, once again, I remain leery of subjecting anyone to a slipshod debut. It's pretty hard to recover from.

Maho is tied to the Phoenix because it represents the dark half of Shugenja magic. You're right, it remains the "go-to" descriptor to highlight the negative aspect of the clan. The key question is: Would this be the case if Maho was highlighted during the Clan War, only to fade away? Or, would this still be the case had Maho remained out of the spotlight during Clan War, but became more prevalent afterwards? I think a negative remains a negative regardless. It persists in either case. It's no different than viewing Lion as myopic bullies with little else to do, but fight. That's their negative aspect (among many). Meaning, if one wants to look for the negative aspect to any clan, there's plenty of source material to find it and exploit it.

Given that the original story was building towards the Day of Thunder, it made sense to introduce dark magic to the Clan War environment -- and to the Phoenix in particular. Great power, greater responsibility. I suppose it would have helped to have 2-3 Masters remain untainted, but there was only Kaede. I think that's a debatable point for sure.

As to the entire Clan receiving more stories of collective heroism: These are generally not as frequent as those stories where clans are villified, or portrayed as conquerors. Strange... I too would like the Phoenix to do good work as a collective. I just hope that doesn't translate to a squeeky clean, tepid depiction of the clan. Because that doesn't move the needle in any significant sense.

I think it's good to have a duality of the positives and negatives of the clan - but I guess the biggest take away I have about the Phoenix here is that the goods weren't as prominent as the bads.

I was thinking about this earlier because there was a time where the Scorpion Clan had their fracture with the Shadowed Tower. I sided with the "good Scorpion" side which was seeking to shut down the Shadowed Tower side. It was great to have a stronghold that represented that "bad Scorpion" but I can see how, if that were the only real Scorpion stronghold, and if that was the only meta available for Scorpion that I would be upset. I prefer to envision the Scorpion as more noble, a true Underhand of the Emperor who are willing to sacrifice their honor for the greater good, rather than people who simply don't care about honor and willingly kill people in cowardly ways for their own ends... I imagine the Scorpion really contain both of these types (of players and fictional characters) and having an embodiment of these are good, especially if it is something we can represent in our deck.

It would be cool if FFG devised a better way to represent these fractures - perhaps creating a Sensei type card that can show which side of that battle you endorse when you play that clan. Are you the Crab that are pissed off enough that they'll nail a boy to a standard and march the Shadowlands into the empire? Or are you the Crab who is a stalwart defender of the wall whether the Empire gives you enough support or not, because you know you must uphold your duty or the Empire is lost...