(it's entirely coincidental that I can never remember this rule anyway)

With dice creep, this would all but push out 3-dice secondaries (Tractor Beam, Mangler, Tracers, etc.).

Three red dice just isn't enough any more unless you've got jank, Gunner, or at least two other three-dice attacks each turn.

What's your objective undoing so? This de-buffs all secondary weapons - Missiles and Torpedoes have just found their feet. Cannons are not a problem. In the Turret world people only complain about TLT.

Secondary weapons are the biggest problem in the game, not just TLT. The top meta lists the last two weekends only 1 of the top 13 squads uses primary weapons, and that's Fair Ship Rebels the squad that's successful because it's the only thing really able to live with secondary weapons.

I mean, Talonbane would be happy!

18 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

With dice creep, this would all but push out 3-dice secondaries (Tractor Beam, Mangler, Tracers, etc.).

Do you only fire them at R3?

26 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Do you only fire them at R3?

Dash does. But personally, I try to make most ordinance encounters at range 3 for just this reason - no agility buff for the defender and on reprisal, the ordinance ship gets a range bonus (v. primary) and a chance to avoid jousting.

7 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

Dash does. But personally, I try to make most ordinance encounters at range 3 for just this reason - no agility buff for the defender and on reprisal, the ordinance ship gets a range bonus (v. primary) and a chance to avoid jousting.

Hence changing the rule!

Noticed @SOTL is short for @Stay On The Leader and sorry for asking this... but are you one and the same reallife person? If so, do you ever argue with yourself on these forums?

1 hour ago, SOTL said:

(it's entirely coincidental that I can never remember this rule anyway)

My group was convinced this would be the fix back when wave 8 was released and deadeye scouts were ruining the game.

It's still a relevant and easy fix.

4 minutes ago, RedHotDice said:

Noticed @SOTL is short for @Stay On The Leader and sorry for asking this... but are you one and the same reallife person? If so, do you ever argue with yourself on these forums?

Sand people always ride single file to hide their numbers

4 minutes ago, RedHotDice said:

Noticed @SOTL is short for @Stay On The Leader and sorry for asking this... but are you one and the same reallife person? If so, do you ever argue with yourself on these forums?

I am one and the same, and it's not unheard of but usually I think I'm talking a lot of sense.

(it depends which device I'm using for which account is cookied in, and I'm not smart enough to know how to switch them all to the one account)

1 hour ago, Stay On The Leader said:

Secondary weapons are the biggest problem in the game, not just TLT. The top meta lists the last two weekends only 1 of the top 13 squads uses primary weapons, and that's Fair Ship Rebels the squad that's successful because it's the only thing really able to live with secondary weapons.

The biggest problem? I say FINALLY they got value! Fire some missiles/torpedoes with your ship is totally flavour with the game theme, and in fact I love to buy some munitions for my ships as well.

Ordnances were useless until Guidance Chips comes in. They must be better than the primary attack, or they will be simply useless.

The game is way more interesting with Ordnance weapons.

PWT shooting out of arc need to grant an extra defense die at any range before this would ever be acceptable.

I'd also sooner consider changing all instances of the word "the" to "a" rather than this proposed "fix".

36 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Hence changing the rule!

Haha not where I was going with that...
I'm saying, if your proposed change were in effect, range-3 shots with anything but HLC or Cruise Missiles would mostly be negated or reduced to one hit. See: Every ship in the meta.

Reinforce, LwF, Autothrusters, etc. ****, this would even buff the Jumpmaster, allowing them 3 greens when fired at with ordinance from range.

I disagree with the OP. It gives more flavor to the secondary weapon and something become stupidly good. Prockets would be throwing 6 dice, Dorsal Turret would throwing 4 dice at range one 360 degrees for a mere 3 points. The autroblaster cannon would be throwing 4 unstoppable points.

Major portions of the game have been designed around that rule and it would throw off many aspects.

11 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

I disagree with the OP. It gives more flavor to the secondary weapon and something become stupidly good. Prockets would be throwing 6 dice, Dorsal Turret would throwing 4 dice at range one 360 degrees for a mere 3 points. The autroblaster cannon would be throwing 4 unstoppable points.

Major portions of the game have been designed around that rule and it would throw off many aspects.

He's only proposing changing the Range 3 bonus to not ignore Secondaries, not the Range 1. You're still not wrong that things have been built around that rule; part of what makes things like the HLC and torpedoes worth their points is that they ignore the bonus die for range 3. Removing that penalty just to ping TLTs and alpha strike lists is massive overkill.

I agree that this is something that could be changed which would give us a better game. The only things that really suffer are ordnance, which, now that we've had a taste, I think a majority of players would say it is better off as a fun mechanic instead of a prominent one, and TLT and Cannons. Cannons would be unfortunate, cuz you really pay for those pretty fairly as is, but maybe a future mod or something (similar to guidance chips) would allow them to add range bonuses and disable range 3 bonuses for the defender.

If they ever do a second edition with revised costs and game texts, I hope they do change this, because I don't think it makes fluff sense (and it's an extra rule to remember). I would be very fine with them making the change now, but with a second edition they could update any costs that might be rendered inaccurate in the process.

(Perfect verisimilitude would probably have the cannon getting the Range 1 bonus as well. ...)

3 hours ago, ViscerothSWG said:

PWT shooting out of arc need to grant an extra defense die at any range before this would ever be acceptable.

Have you ever seen episode IV? Why the heck would it be harder for someone sitting in a gunner seat to shoot up, left, and right than to fire down? Also applies to YT-2400, k-wing, y-wing, HWK-290, and decimators (all of these have devoted gunner positions). Extra defense die out of arc would only make sense against tie aggressor and JM5K, which don't have devoted gunner positions, they are operated by the pilot.

3 hours ago, Cerve said:

The game is way more interesting with Ordnance weapons.

I have to admit that @ficklegreendice is starting to make more and more sense.

Accuracy Dice (4 hits, 2 focus, 2 blanks)

Damage Dice (4 single damage, 2 critical damage, 1 double damage, 1 damage + critical damage)

Defence Dice (3 evade, 2 focus, 3 blanks)

Big ships = high health, low defence.
Small ships = low health, high defence.

Primary attacks = medium-high accuracy, low-medium damage.

Torpedos/Cannons = low-medium accuracy, medium-high damage or medium accuracy, low damage & special effect.

Roll accuracy dice, compare with defence dice, then if you hit roll for damage. Evade tokens can be used to cancel damage results, not accuracy.

Dammit he's got into my head

13 minutes ago, GLEXOR said:

Have you ever seen episode IV? Why the heck would it be harder for someone sitting in a gunner seat to shoot up, left, and right than to fire down? Also applies to YT-2400, k-wing, y-wing, HWK-290, and decimators (all of these have devoted gunner positions). Extra defense die out of arc would only make sense against tie aggressor and JM5K, which don't have devoted gunner positions, they are operated by the pilot.

Have you played any flight simulator games? When a turret ship is at full stop, it's not too difficult to hit anything. When the ship is moving and turning and rotating, it's extremely hard to track your target outside of the flight path.

So I'll add a clause that if a PWT ship did any maneuver other than a full stop, the defender gains 1 defense die. That solves all the issues.

31 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

I have to admit that @ficklegreendice is starting to make more and more sense.

Accuracy Dice (4 hits, 2 focus, 2 blanks)

Damage Dice (4 single damage, 2 critical damage, 1 double damage, 1 damage + critical damage)

Defence Dice (3 evade, 2 focus, 3 blanks)

Big ships = high health, low defence.
Small ships = low health, high defence.

Primary attacks = medium-high accuracy, low-medium damage.

Torpedos/Cannons = low-medium accuracy, medium-high damage or medium accuracy, low damage & special effect.

Roll accuracy dice, compare with defence dice, then if you hit roll for damage. Evade tokens can be used to cancel damage results, not accuracy.

Dammit he's got into my head

I respectfully hope they don't add a second dice-rolling step, just to save work while playing. I think a simpler way to achieve a similar effect would be to use 'ordnance dice' with one or two double-damage faces that can be negated by only a single evade result. So if I roll blank, hit, double-hit, you only need to roll evade, evade to negate it all. This results in the ordnance being potentially more damaging but easier to evade, as in your breakdown above, without having to roll a second set of dice.

57 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

Have you played any flight simulator games? When a turret ship is at full stop, it's not too difficult to hit anything. When the ship is moving and turning and rotating, it's extremely hard to track your target outside of the flight path.

So I'll add a clause that if a PWT ship did any maneuver other than a full stop, the defender gains 1 defense die. That solves all the issues.

Why would it be easier to shoot down though? The gunner seats in most of the ships listed are either facing above or below the ship, or pivot 360 on the x-axis and at least 180 on the y-axis, not straight forward. And the falcon wasn't sitting still, Chewie was flying. And when Dash guns in the Outrider, "Leebo" is flying through an asteroid field! The same one the Falcon flies through in episode V, only a few minutes to a half an hour behind the Falcon. Can't stop in there! And Dash had no problems shooting behind the Outrider, and that is STRAIGHT from a flight sim. The same person isn't flying and shooting the turret, generally someone who is somewhat experienced is gunning (Luke was already a GREAT shot, and Han had already done this many times before).

edit: Also, PWT ships don't have the full stop on their dial. The only way to stop would be SPENDING inertial dampeners.

literally the only "fix" i see from this is related to TLTs
Which, ironically, are still the least affected by it since they only need 1 hit to go through to do anything.

Everything else would be needlessly shafted.