32 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Because I can do something else and rake in inherent 2nd player objective advantage. That makes you need to DO SOMETHING to counter ME.

So you better use your activation advantage.

Because then once it comes Push-to-Shove..... You get to do *ONE* thing first before its my turn, and if I've invested properly, I have weight of strength there, waiting.

Thats why some people say that Flotillas are an advantage come the first couple of turns. But after that, they're little advantage in activation - because the Dirty Deeds needs to be done NOW - delaying doesn't necessarily help.

And that is no different from other Activation games. Once the first few rounds are over, I'm likely activating my biggest pieces first, and leaving the slough to fend for themselves, maybe plaink a shot here or there, but ultimately, they've been used for what they were meant for, to force your big pieces to do/go somehwere I wanted them to go, and allow me to react instead of guessing.

So what's the problem?

I'm reaping an advantage in the meantime being second and letting you twiddle your activational thumbs... Its up to me to make that advantage count, right?

20 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

So what's the problem?

I'm reaping an advantage in the meantime being second and letting you twiddle your activational thumbs... Its up to me to make that advantage count, right?

I'm starting to wonder if you are are on the same side of the argument here?

I'm all for activation control i.e. out activating my opponent. Isn;t that what you are saying too?

Probably.

Wouldn't put it past me, anyway.

I was more commenting on the fact that the comparison wasn't really a solid one, because Armada is virtually unique in the fact that it not only accepts it, it rewards the second player as a compensation.

No you are correct not many games out there that still rewards the second player, but to bring in a pass mechanic and change the first player bid would necessitate rebuilding the rules from the ground up.

How great would the reward be if players started building and playing lists to go as first and second?

4 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

How great would the reward be if players started building and playing lists to go as first and second?

You mean, like the Nose Punch?

Great while First, has stupid advantages while Second...

7 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

How great would the reward be if players started building and playing lists to go as first and second?

I think the difficulty with that is having the correct bid. It's fairly easy to go all in on first player and bid 20 points, or the equivalent in ultra bid metas. But finding the balance of bidding against lists you want to go first against, and allowing the ultra bid to have first against you, is difficult. Because different areas have different bids, it's really hard to anticipate what is too much and what is too little. I think that's why people go all in on 400 points or a huge bid.

8 hours ago, thecactusman17 said:

How great would the reward be if players started building and playing lists to go as first and second?

With the exception of lists that are clearly bidding for first (usually for last+first) and those that have a modest bid for second (usually with Strategic squadrons, sometimes bomber fleets that desperately want to play one of their objectives), I'd say most fleets are built for going first and second. I'd put it at a solid 2/3 of fleets I encounter meet that description, depending on the meta.

The main problem those types of fleets tend to have (again, in my experience purely) is that the players of those kind of fleets haven't usually given the fleet as much deliberative thought as the players with a clear bid strategy and so the objectives in particular aren't usually as punishing as a fleet designed to be second player's objectives are and thus they can struggle a bit against a first player bid fleet; similarly, the fleet won't be designed to take sufficient advantage being first player against a second player bid fleet.

This doesn't mean they're doomed to be that way, mind you. I've seen good players make quite good "I'll take whatever player order" fleets*, but they need to give their builds and particularly their objectives at least as much consideration as a fleet that bids for player order. It's been my experience that bid fleets have a certain amount of serious consideration built in because they're operating at a points disadvantage to execute some kind of plan that gives them a game advantage. "Whatever" fleets don't require the same base level of consideration but it absolutely pays off when they do, and when that is the case I don't see them functioning at a disadvantage.

*One of our better locals named Mike won the Sunday Adepticon tournament with such a fleet, for example.

The players that are taking flotillas to allow for their larger ship(s) to be able to activate when they want are still paying for that ability. Flotillas can be picked off fairly easily, which directly reduces the effectiveness of their stalling ability, the trick is to not allow them to also use their flotilla as bait traps that move you into position.

1 hour ago, Archangelion said:

The players that are taking flotillas to allow for their larger ship(s) to be able to activate when they want are still paying for that ability. Flotillas can be picked off fairly easily, which directly reduces the effectiveness of their stalling ability, the trick is to not allow them to also use their flotilla as bait traps that move you into position.

That's very easy to do. You set up the flotillas with Comms Net and deploy to they will move behind your main ship. Scoot at speed 1 and you won't have to worry about ramming. I do this all the time with 2 flotillas.

I disagree that flotillas are easy to kill. When a ship is loaded correctly to kill they they certainly can, however, flotillas often do not need to be any where near weapons range to contribute their non-sensical benefit of activation padding to the fight (Relay only make this worse). Ships only get to fire a max of 12 shots in a game, realistically only 10 time since turn 1 is usually a non-combat turn. every time a ship fires at a flotilla they are using resources. Flotillas should never have been given a scatter token that way all ships have a good chance of swatting them, not only the specialized ones.

It is super hard to win a game by killing enough flotillas. they are way to cheap for what they allow.

40 minutes ago, Space_Cowboy17 said:

I disagree that flotillas are easy to kill. When a ship is loaded correctly to kill they they certainly can, however, flotillas often do not need to be any where near weapons range to contribute their non-sensical benefit of activation padding to the fight (Relay only make this worse). Ships only get to fire a max of 12 shots in a game, realistically only 10 time since turn 1 is usually a non-combat turn. every time a ship fires at a flotilla they are using resources. Flotillas should never have been given a scatter token that way all ships have a good chance of swatting them, not only the specialized ones.

It is super hard to win a game by killing enough flotillas. they are way to cheap for what they allow.

>INB4 this argument gets started for the umpteenth time

see

https://community.fantasyflightgames.com/search/?q=flotilla&type=forums_topic&nodes=402&sortby=relevancy&search_in=titles

A completely different way of curbing the activation abuse of flotilla's, is to make a rule that says:

You can only activate a Flotilla before another friendly Non-flotilla ship in your fleet, that hasn't activated yet, if the flotilla is at distance 1-3 of a friendly Non-flotilla ship.

That means you can't have one or more flotilla's in the background out of harms way, activating before your other ships, unless they are "indirectly" close enough to the fight, by being near a larger friendly ship.

Anyway just an idea

54 minutes ago, Kiwi Rat said:

A completely different way of curbing the activation abuse of flotilla's, is to make a rule that says:

You can only activate a Flotilla before another friendly Non-flotilla ship in your fleet, that hasn't activated yet, if the flotilla is at distance 1-3 of a friendly Non-flotilla ship.

That means you can't have one or more flotilla's in the background out of harms way, activating before your other ships, unless they are "indirectly" close enough to the fight, by being near a larger friendly ship.

Anyway just an idea

That's not really a solution though, it kinda limits what players can do strategically.

What happens to players who use GRs to push fighters? What if the strategy is to split the opponents forces between your ships and squads or force them into a pincer maneuver? It would make sense for the bombers to be able to activate first. With this rule the GRs would not be able to leave distance 3 without risking getting alpha'd.

Flotillas are fine.

If anything, and I'm not saying I believe there's anything mechanically wrong with Armada (because empty activations are trash), the flotillas are just a means to an end. The real Issue people have is the activation mechanic of this game. Adding a phase for flotillas doesn't stop large activation fleets dependent on 1st/last as a "gimmick". It would be a band aid, if anything.

In my opinion, players who want to get away from this system of activation to avoid "gimmicky" 1st/last fleets would need to change the system.

I outlined a possible solution in this post, where the ship phase is broken into two sub phases similar to the x-wing system. It's not as free as Armada, but I believe for individuals too upset about activation problems, it could be a good solution.

Well know that I'm "Brain Storming"...

Which of two suggestions is best?

1: The first ship activated can't be a Flotilla, unless there is only Flotilla's left to activate in the fleet.

Or

2: The last ship activated can't be a Flotilla, unless there is only two Flotilla's left to activate in the fleet.

Sorry double post, slow systems is such a pain in the wookie.