So...when my game group first got this game we thought that the OL player got cards on every players turn. This made for a crushing game everytime. Now we have learned that he only gets 2 cards on his turn. After this, the game has turned into a cake walk. The heroes get so many abilities and items that the amount of damage they deal kills even some of the toughest monsters in the game in one shot. It isn't so much a matter of the OL never winning, as it is he has no chance.

Is the game really designed to be like this? I have written to the rules experts for specifics but they are not responding, like are the heroes really allowed to be able to take "battle actions" and spend fatigue to move around the board, drink a fatigue potion move some more then attack twice. But, honestly, is this common for everybody that the OL is really there just to reveal the dungeon and offer token resistance while the heores nearly stroll through the map. The other night one player nearly solo'd map 3 in the basic game. Need to know, because if it isn't like that we are seriously playing the game wrong and need help.

Heroes turn, open door shoot, 2 others shoot twice, last player shoots then closes the door. ummmm.....really? OL spends tons of his threat to spawn less monsters back in room than was just nearly cleaned out.

Hope we can get some advice....thanks.

Napoleon

Yes, the overlord only gets 2 cards per round, not 2 cards for each hero turn. Yes, the heroes can really make 2 attacks with a battle action and still spend fatigue to move, drink a vitality potion and move further, all in the same turn. Yes, even powerful monsters frequently die in one hit. Yes, it's pretty typical for the heroes to open up a room and kill many or all monsters in it before the overlord gets a turn with them. Descent tends toward rocket-launcher-tag.

But that doesn't mean it's a cakewalk, it means you need to evaluate your tactics in light of those facts. Monsters generally make suicide charges, for example, and you don't usually spawn monsters unless they can attack right away. The overlord should save up resources so they can pile on more hurt when the heroes falter, rather than throwing cannon fodder at them while they're secure. Wear down the heroes resources, chip away at their conquest, find the easiest hero to kill and kill him over and over. Use traps to disrupt the heroes plans so that they can't kill as many monsters as they expect. Those hero tactics that may seem like cheap shots now usually end up being essential to the heroes' survival.

The first two scenarios are there to teach the heroes tactics, and are quite easy. The third one should be a step up, but still not one of the harder scenarios. Quests 4 and 5 get significantly more difficult, and quest 7 is generally considered the hardest in the base game.

But if a hero was anywhere close to literally soloing quest 3, you're doing something very, very wrong. Teamwork is essential for the heroes, and with the lousy scaling mechanisms, the game is virtually unplayable with two heroes under the official rules. A two-hero team needs a lot of experience and some significant luck to survive quest 3. One hero, alone, should be an unmitigated slaughter. You'll drown in spawns. Unless that was extreme hyperbole, you should maybe revisit the rules and see if you made any other mistakes, or try posting a detailed report of a game to see if anyone here can find any mistakes, whether mechanical or tactical.

You could also consider trying out The Enduring Evil , my homebrew mod, which features monsters that can survive a lot more punishment (among other things).

napoleonWilson said:

I think this might be the problem. The OL can do a lot of tactical maneuvering if the heroes advance too slowly, by placing (ranged) monsters behind the heroes, or in side alleys - out of reach of the heroes and ready for a massed attack later on. Don't let it trickle, rather wait a turn and let it pour.

In one-shot quests (not advanced campaigns if the group of players is balanced) it can happen that one hero is a lot more powerful than the others and does most damage to monsters or something. Still, he can't at the same time go and open chests and get keys and kill all the smaller monsters beside the big ones as well.

In my games, the OL always had the upper hand. If I do a non-campaign game again, I'll add the spawn marker from RtL or SoB to make spawning more difficult for the OL.

napoleonWilson said:

Closing the door is something heroes almost never want to do. That blocks LoS and allows the OL to spawn directly on the other side. In this situation the OL could just keep spawning things for the heroes to kill on the other side of the door (but don't open it for them!) The heroes open the door, kill them and close the door, lather, rinse, repeat. Eventually the OL will wear down their CT by cycling the deck and win.

Also, every time they open the door is another chance for the OL to spring a door trap on them, and heaven forbid they move in and out of the room to find targets, since then they get space traps too. And of course, if the OL is spawning Beastmen he can pull the same stunt in reverse; spawn beside door, open door, attack attack attack, close door. The way you describe it here the heroes aren't holding back for Guard orders, which is foolish.

Generally speaking, the last thing the heroes want to do is stop moving. If this strategy is working for them, then it's only because the OL is missing some good opportunities to wear them down. No offense, it sounds like you're still learning the game, but give it some more time and you'll teach those pesky heroes that this sort of thing is not tactically viable in the long run.

Lastly, as I believe others have already said, don't cry too much for your dead monsters. They are cannon fodder being lead to the slaughter and once you get the hang of OL-dom, the fact that most of them get one-shotted shouldn't slow you down.

I am actually not the OL. I am colour blind and the game is not what I would call colour blind friendly. The guy who does play the OL has MANY years of consistant exp playing boardgames, rpg's, strategy, etc. We are just learning the game and going in order we just finished map 3, and one player killed the named end guy in one shot, with a basic store bought weapon only to prove the point that it is not balanced. The heroes had so many conquest tokens he would have had to totally wipe the party 4 times to get rid of them all. In some instances, dying is a great thing cause you pop back up with full stats and only loose 100 bucks. Honestly though, I don't see what you are all saying as true. The door thing...monsters can't open doors so the OL can spawn all he likes behind us, we aren't going to back track. He can't spawn where the heroes can see, or where they have not seen yet. So it simply becomes a matter of the heroes setting up into positions where he cannot spawn or in locations behind that are cut off by doors. Spawning monsters is seemingly utterly useless. Once the group is ready to move forward just push into next room and close the door, rinse and repeat. I don't get what is so threatening about a dungeon, filled with monsters that are in already explored, empty areas that will not be returned to. Are there adventures where repeat visits to rooms are required? That would DEFINATALY change things. Is the OL just meant to not do anything till nearly end game and then in the last room start blasting and hope for the best?

I feel badly for the OL player because in either instance, he is hopelessly neutered or has to sit there and do nothing for the whole game to finally get a chance of a win in the last fight. At this point it is really boring, But if map 7 is the toughest map in the core game, I think we will skip to that next and give it a whirl with the same rules. Then, if that is a cake walk too, we may just adjust the game.

Thanks for the responses though, I very much value them and appreciate. My gaming group and I really want to like the game, but it has to be challenging and fun for all. So far, it isn't.

Thanks,

Napoleon

napoleonWilson said:

Monsters can open doors, though. Regular monsters cannot open rune-locked doors, but they can open (and close) regular doors.

You might want to reread the rules, to see if you've missed anything. I know that when I play a new games, after my first couple tries I reread the rules and learn that we've been playing something wrong. I don't think there's been a game where we did everything right, and once you're familiar with the basic gameplay, rereading will let you spot some minor details you've missed (like how monsters CAN open doors).

For example, we tried Pandemic last week, a very simple game rules-wise compared to Descent, and even then we screwed up one rule (we thought you could only *give* cards to other players, not give and/or receive. That really changed the dynamic of the game).

-shnar

Forum mangled the post. Going to try again.

napoleonWilson said:

It's pretty classic Descent for the boss to die in about one round , and maybe one turn from a gold weapon (the overlord rarely wins in the last room, and had better be stockpiling dodge cards if he intends to try), but one attack from a shop weapon sounds rather excessive. That can't have done more than 10-12 damage, even with with a perfect roll, unless you stacked on a ton of bonuses from other sources; I don't remember the exact stats of the boss in quest 3, but that's barely enough damage to kill an ordinary master naga, and bosses usually have increased armor and health. Admittedly, most of the fighting in the quest 3 boss room is probably to reach the bells, not to slay the boss afterwards, but maybe you ought to run the numbers on that again. Descent combat is deadly, but it's not that deadly.

napoleonWilson said:

As Mahkra said, monsters CAN open doors. The rules specifically allow both heroes and monsters to open doors on page 4, and again on page 13.

Monsters can't open a door that leads to an unrevealed area (so heroes are always in control of when they want to tackle the next area), and only named monsters can open or close rune-locked doors , but regular doors to revealed areas are fair game. When I'm playing overlord, I'll frequently have monsters close doors in mid-battle in order to force the heroes to spend more movement points opening them again, or so that I can hide (and spawn) behind them if they don't.

Are there any other tools at the overlord's disposal that you think are rendered largely worthless by some basic mechanic? They may be worth checking into...

Firstly, I do suggest trying quest 4 as soon as possible. It is significantly harder than the first three (indeed it's one of the tougher original quests). It features areas with turns that block line of sight and that the heroes need to backtrack through, making spawning easier. In fact spawning is easily the key to an overlord victory, as, unless the heroes are very careful, the overlord will be able to spawn a ton of monsters blocking the boss room before the heroes are actually able to enter it.

If you're still walking all over the overlord, try quest 7. That one is *very* tough. And if even that doesn't help, and you don't mind buying an expansion, "A Small Problem" from Well of Darkness is basically impossible for the heroes unless they are very skilled and lucky, and the overlord has no idea what they're doing.

If you can be bothered, a more careful blow-by-blow account of a game would make it easier for people on the forum to check if you are doing anything seriously wrong, but the first two quests are pretty easy for the heroes, so you may not be.

Do remember that monsters can open doors, though, for a start.

I'll just say this, don't judge Descent until you played all the core quests from the main game. By the time you finish those, you will finally know the rules.

When I first started playing Descent, I thought it was weak compared to Warhammer Quest. By the time I played all the Journeys in the Dark missions at least once, I felt the gameplay/combat was far far superior.

Make sure you keep re-reading the main rule guide over and over in your spare time. You'll be amazed at how many rules you are missing or mis-interpreting.

Just noticed another thing...

napoleonWilson said:

That's... almost impossible. And certainly extraordinarily unlikely.

Even assuming your party only includes 3 heroes and that each of them is only worth 2 conquest, wiping the entire party 4 times would net 24 conquest; a typical 4-hero party would lose more like 48 conquest. I don't remember exactly how much conquest is in quest 3, but it's probably something like 5 starting conquest + 3 * 6 glyphs (18) + 4 from chests, which is about 27 total, barely above the minimum the party would lose, assuming there were no deaths at all up until that point.

So I suspect there's another error buried there. Maybe you're distributing conquest separately to each hero, instead of just using one pool of conquest tokens for the entire party? That would make quite a difference.

napoleonWilson said:

1. Quest 3 boss cannot be harmed until you get to all the bells, but then is only a normal Master Naga. SO she starts invincible, but after you fight/maneouvre for a bit she becomes quite killable with even a shop weapon.

2. Others have covered this, but here are the actual quotes.
DJitD pg4
Both heroes and monsters may open and close normal doors , but only heroes may open a rune-locked door,
DJitD pg13
It is possible for both heroes and monsters to expend movement points to open or close doors, but only if their figure is located in a space adjacent to a door’s closed position...
Important: Monsters cannot open any door leading to an unrevealed area ...
Important: Monsters can never open or close a runelocked door (changed by FAQ ruling)
FAQ pg2
Runelocked Doors and Named Monsters
Named monsters may open and close runelocked doors , whether or not the heroes have the runekey to that door. However, named monsters still cannot open any door leading into an unrevealed area.

3. He can spawn where the heroes have not seen yet, just not into an unrevealed area. The two might sound the same, but are not, so make sure you understand the difference.
For example, in quest 3 if you open the middle door into area 3, the whole of area 3 becomes 'revealed' and the OL can spawn in any part of it the heroes can't see. Initially at least, that would include both parts of the area close to the other doors, even though the heroes have not yet seen those particular parts - they are revealed, but not yet seen.

Antistone said:

Since I'm looking at the quest guide...
Best 2 bronze chests + best 2 silver chests + best gold chest (for conquest) nets 11 CT.
6 glyphs nets 18 CT.
5 starting CT
So maximum before killing the boss is 34CT.
No deaths at all is not that uncommon, to be fair, especially since a bunch of other rules seem to be being played wrong.

So a 3-hero party worth 9CT (4/3/2 or 3/3/3) could have to TPK 4x.

But it is definitely possible that you are playing CT wrong as well.

I've played in several quests where the heroes had 20+CT going into the final room and finally won with only 1 or 2 CT left (ie any more deaths and the OL wins.
I've also played in several where the heroes had 20+ CT and didn't lose any killing the boss.
I've also played in a game where the heroes were down to 1CT at the start of the OL's turn in a crowded final room and the OL rolled 5 misses out of 6 attacks. Then the only hero that could reach the boss pulled out a super-weapon (the gold stealth blade, ~~ = 5 damage but rolls a stealth dice) and a Feat to put all the non-red dice on any face he chose and did 28 damage with one swing, killing the boss in one shot from full health!
The game can have wild swings of luck and wild swings of power balance depending on skills and items drawn.

no death is not uncommon? i really think you should get to the rulebook. there must be some major mistakes in your group. are you choosing heroes? starting skills? using the correct monstercards. overlord gathering the right amount of threat. one potion per round.

what expansions are you playing with? revised monster cards included?

the quest however is very simple, it should not be a problem to beat it on the first try. but no hero death?

Turric4n said:

Often (not always) no hero death in the first 1/3 - 2/3 of the quest, sometimes even until the final room.

Heroes are smart, play well, work together, make use of a runner, lots potions (especially invisibility and dodge combo, but mainly fatigue) and feats.

We usually use the draw three pick/one method (did before RtL was released) for heroes, so tend to have relatively strong parties - always 4 heroes regardless of number of hero players.

OL experience is that holding and hitting hard is more useful than dribbling power.

napoleonWilson said:

I can empathize with the colour blind thing. Sadly it seems there are a lot of board games that are not designed with colourblindness in mind.

Your OL may have plenty of experience with other board games, but Descent is, shall we say, somewhat unique. This game and the rules it uses make a lot of decisions you might not expect from a game like this. For example, the idea that the heroes are expected to win. Most games of this nature (like HeroQuest, an oft quoted "similar game") are designed in such a way that the heroes will almost always come out on top. This is not true of Descent, but if your OL player is working on that assumption he might be holding back on a few cards that he thinks are "too powerful." If the OL holds anything back, the heroes will most certainly win, but that is not how the game was designed to be played.

Others have already covered the boss in quest 3. That's a bad example since the boss is invincible to start but not at all special once the invincibility is shut off. Even other regular bosses can be quickly killed by heroes who know what they are doing, but not in one shot. At least not without some very lucky card draws throughout the game. The OL definitely needs to land a few kills BEFORE the heroes get to the end boss if he wants to win the match.

napoleonWilson said:

This chunk of text leads me to believe you're probably doing a few things incorrectly.

Are you resetting the heroes' CT to 5 each dungeon, or are you letting the CT from the last dungeon carry over to the next? That's a common mistake for new players. CT does not carry over. The final reward of 4 CT for beating the boss is more thematic than mechanical. Gaining CT means the heroes have made progress towards they ultimate goal, and killing the boss certainly qualifies as making progress, so they get CT. Those CT are immediately lost when the dungeon ends, so they only really serve a purpose if you're keeping track of high scores. Nothing carries over except the heroes and their initial 3 skills. All CT, treasures, training tokens and additional skills are discarded at the end of each dungeon. If you want a continuous campaign experience, that's what the Road to Legend and the new Sea of Blood expansions are designed to give you, the base game is a series of one-shot dungeons.

As others have covered, monsters can open doors as long as the areas on each side have already been revealed. Also remember there's a difference between "revealed" and "the heroes can see it."

I would suggest you and your group re-read the rules to make sure you haven't missed anything else. Also, check the FAQ online here at FFG's webite, there are a number of important errata and corrections you should probably be aware of. Errata such as each hero is only allowed to drink one potion per turn, of any type. Skeletons have Pierce 1 since they have bows (masters have Pierce 2 IIRC). Beastmen do +damage instead of having Pierce, which is a subtle change but it can make a difference in certain situations.

napoleonWilson said:

There are some dungeons that require back-tracking, but not all of them. The OL is definitely NOT meant to wait until the last room before trying to win. If he does this he will almost certainly lose. The OL needs to wear the heroes down in a death-by-papercuts fashion throughout the dungeon.

napoleonWilson said:

Hopefully we can help you guys get set up properly. As I said above, Descent is somewhat different from other games of this genre. New players often misread things or apply logic to the scenario and this ends up tipping the balance of power one way or the other. Descent is a very well balanced game in my opinion, but that balance is a house of cards that can be toppled easily if things are changed inadvertently.

Steve-O said:

And that's if you're using the basic campaign rules printed on the quest guide, which I'd recommend against. Normally you generate an entirely new party for each quest that has no connection at all to the last game.

I just wanted to add to the the OP that i just recently started playing the game myself and at first i had the same issues. However after about a good dozen dungeon plays through my wife and i have a really firm grasp of the rules. I would highly suggest getting the RTL and SoB campaign expansions for the game. They help streamline the game and provide for you a way to continue your journey with your groups charcaters. They also have some great rules additions for dungeons and the outdoor encounters.

One thing from RTL that helps your OL become a better player is the spwn marker. It forces the OL to either pay a hefty cost to flood the board or make them start using all the cards they have beyond summonings. Once your OL figures out the combos and setups they can get by using all the cards it gets rough on the party. Adding the treachery deck into the mix makes it even more insane on the party. As an example i was recently hit with a Dance of the Monkey God and wow did my group get pulverized. The monsters in the campaigns also start out a bit better than a normal one shot game and the OL has the option to upgrade them to even better.

Give the game a few more plays through and see how it goes. Again i had the same basic issues to begin with until i realised i was playing a few things wrong. Played correctly the party has to stick together and work as a team. The minute you try to be a hero the OL should basically be able to take you out no matter how powerful you think you are. Now i am enjoying the game immensly with a few buddys and they all think my wife is an evil sadistic ***** who gets great pleasure in killing us all repeatedly. Which of course she has told us she does.

Sorry all that I have not written anything more since my initial post, (got stuck grading papers).

The door issue is going to be big. We missed the wizard lock part and see now that monsters can open regular doors. Our group is somewhat divided on the ultimate outcome this will cause but we will definatly use it in next game. Other than that however, the other rules mentioned previously are exactly how we play. We do not continue conquest tokens from quest to quest, neither do we keep treasure or skills that were aquired during the course of an adventure. We do allow some picking of characters,.. we deal out 3 to each and pick one rather than dishing out one character and having to deal with it. During the game which was the primary subject of the initial post there was over thirty conquest tokens only including the initial five starting, and those we get from opening portals and the occasional chest.

We have yet to try another game since our last, but I will post the results as soon as we do. Personally, think monsters opening doors is gonna be big. Our OL isn't so sure. we shall see....

thanks all who respond.

Napoleon

Given that the bulk of the heroes' strategy appears to be "hide behind the door" I don't see how it can help but have a major impact.