Just looking back on my old upgrades and wondering how they could be used in this wave. Main problem for EL is that its attacks after the first must be worth the 10 points over ER, which is quite hard to achieve?

So for EL, one idea may be to plant it on an mc30c. Same no. of dice on front and side plus mc30c can equip h9 to bypass the brace. Really expensive points sink though.

Thoughts?

In what I have witnessed of gameplay and what little I have played myself, I don't see the value in EL when you have ER. If a ship survives after three attacks from an mc30c, for example, either the big ship is getting some serious buffing from others (Regen Death Pickle by @Vergilius ) and missing all his attacks against you, or... well... I don't know what else. If the other player plays poorly, you might get four shots out of the front with gunnery team. That might be a scenario where you get the value out of launchers.

It's still usable on Gladiators and MC30s, both of which can expect to get 2+ turns of use out of it when played well and combines well with H9s (MC30) and/or Intel Officer (both, potentially), but the combination is very expensive and therefore the Launchers have become less appealing (but not altogether unappealing) with External Racks around.

I can't recommend even considering Expanded Launchers on anything other than MC30s and Gladiators, though. External Racks all the way there.

I'd go further than snipafist. MC30s tend to get one good shot and then zoom off, and so ER seem like a good buy there if you're not going ordinance.

I think EL has a place on Demolisher, where you get the two extra black dice on each successful Demolisher attack. And I think the pricing on the upgrade reflects that it will be used for exactly this reason.

7 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

I'd go further than snipafist. MC30s tend to get one good shot and then zoom off, and so ER seem like a good buy there if you're not going ordinance.

I think EL has a place on Demolisher, where you get the two extra black dice on each successful Demolisher attack. And I think the pricing on the upgrade reflects that it will be used for exactly this reason.

funny to think EL was thought solely for demo if that's the case.

Just now, Sybreed said:

funny to think EL was thought solely for demo if that's the case.

With the exception of Demo, I've always found the upgraded to be extremely overpriced on everything else. And that was well before External Racks came along. Expanded Launchers was included in the Gladiator pack and both units were released fairly early on, so my thinking is that they looked at the ships/upgrade costs together and weren't entirely clear where they'd eventually end up 2+ years later with new ships and upgrades.

1 hour ago, Vergilius said:

With the exception of Demo, I've always found the upgraded to be extremely overpriced on everything else. And that was well before External Racks came along. Expanded Launchers was included in the Gladiator pack and both units were released fairly early on, so my thinking is that they looked at the ships/upgrade costs together and weren't entirely clear where they'd eventually end up 2+ years later with new ships and upgrades.

I think there's an issue with just how FFG priced their upgrades during the first year of the game, where some of the stuff are grossly overpriced for what they do. Probably due to inexperience with the game honestly. Too bad they can't errata these stuff, otherwise the game would open up a lot more.

Imagine how useful point defense reroute would be if it didnt have that "at close range" limitation.

Well maybe lets not get ahead of ourselves.

2 minutes ago, BrobaFett said:

Imagine how useful point defense reroute would be if it didnt have that "at close range" limitation.

Well maybe lets not get ahead of ourselves.

At least now, no Squadron is going to be attacking you from outside of that Range.

2 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

At least now, no Squadron is going to be attacking you from outside of that Range.

True, but I was thinking how maybe PDR on a quasar with that red AS dice mighe actually be worth it if there wasnt a range requirement.

Just now, BrobaFett said:

True, but I was thinking how maybe PDR on a quasar with that red AS dice mighe actually be worth it if there wasnt a range requirement.

If it made the Crits count as Hits, probably... But with just a 1/4 chance of a reroll that results in only 3/8 chance of doing anything to a Squadron...

... Points are better invested in Ruthless Strategists and a Tanky Squad (TIE Bomber?) you don't give a Squat about... Especially since the II has double Gunnery anyway.

2 hours ago, Sybreed said:

I think there's an issue with just how FFG priced their upgrades during the first year of the game, where some of the stuff are grossly overpriced for what they do. Probably due to inexperience with the game honestly. Too bad they can't errata these stuff, otherwise the game would open up a lot more.

Well they did do a mass errata right before wave 6 came out. But I don't think it is in their marketing strategy to make old cards better. Might as well release better cards to make more money? Xwing also has alot of expired upgrade cards that are rarely seen on the table. But I'm thinking ffg has thought well ahead gor many other components of armada so why not this one? Unless perhaps EL was well costed for that period it first came out(not alot of ships to cram in a list yet) and now not.

Ffg still hasn't done a points errata though. I believe that may allow for easier solving of problems sometimes

3 hours ago, Vergilius said:

With the exception of Demo, I've always found the upgraded to be extremely overpriced on everything else. And that was well before External Racks came along. Expanded Launchers was included in the Gladiator pack and both units were released fairly early on, so my thinking is that they looked at the ships/upgrade costs together and weren't entirely clear where they'd eventually end up 2+ years later with new ships and upgrades.

This.

It's still a viable pick for the Demo x3 w/IO.

7 hours ago, Sybreed said:

I think there's an issue with just how FFG priced their upgrades during the first year of the game, where some of the stuff are grossly overpriced for what they do. Probably due to inexperience with the game honestly. Too bad they can't errata these stuff, otherwise the game would open up a lot more.

Better to be cautious with point costing early on than to release something that ends up super broken.

After all, Rhymer, Rieekan, TRCs, and Demolisher were all released in the first two waves.

I feel EL has a place in Demo, the only ship with is likely to consistently use 2 big front arcs, EL is a safer and much cheaper bet though.

Realistically, I don't think EL will every be used again. It's best home is on Demo, but even then it's subject to Brace where APT or ACM is not. So you get +2 dice, an average increase in 2 damage, Brace to 1, where as APT is just a net +1 face up. If you take IO and EL, that's 20 points. An extremely effective 20 points, but it paints an even bigger target on Demo. I'd suggest to only do that if you can get last/first.

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Realistically, I don't think EL will every be used again. It's best home is on Demo, but even then it's subject to Brace where APT or ACM is not. So you get +2 dice, an average increase in 2 damage, Brace to 1, where as APT is just a net +1 face up. If you take IO and EL, that's 20 points. An extremely effective 20 points, but it paints an even bigger target on Demo. I'd suggest to only do that if you can get last/first.

Which is kind of hard to do reliably these days

An as you say, it paints an even bigger target on the (nerfed) Demo, making it even less attractive.

9 hours ago, Vergilius said:

I'd go further than snipafist. MC30s tend to get one good shot and then zoom off, and so ER seem like a good buy there if you're not going ordinance.

I think EL has a place on Demolisher, where you get the two extra black dice on each successful Demolisher attack. And I think the pricing on the upgrade reflects that it will be used for exactly this reason.

I will admit that the Expanded Launchers argument is stronger on a Demolisher Gladiator than the MC30. The MC30 is the only other place I can imagine wanting to spend the points and even then it's rare. A black crit upgrade is often superior there.

9 hours ago, Vergilius said:

With the exception of Demo, I've always found the upgraded to be extremely overpriced on everything else. And that was well before External Racks came along. Expanded Launchers was included in the Gladiator pack and both units were released fairly early on, so my thinking is that they looked at the ships/upgrade costs together and weren't entirely clear where they'd eventually end up 2+ years later with new ships and upgrades.

Agreed. 13 points for an upgrade usable from one arc at close range is a bit of a hard sell but in the right circumstances it can be all right. I would also agree that it feels like as time has gone on, FFG have realized that people don't want to drop a lot of points on upgrades unless they're extremely good. Wave one (and to a lesser extent, some things from wave 2) upgrades overall tend to be quite pricey and generally not seen very much on most ships. The VSD titles alone are staggeringly expensive for what they do. Lately, we've been seeing cheaper upgrades with more moderate effects and people overall seem to be happier with those.

Man, when I get a Rebel Officer that lets my drop an Ordnance Upgrade on any ship I feel like, I'll Expanded Launcher Salvation at least a few times.....

39 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Man, when I get a Rebel Officer that lets my drop an Ordnance Upgrade on any ship I feel like, I'll Expanded Launcher Salvation at least a few times.....

Sato sort of gives you that already. Just make sure to continue our local tradition of never rolling HitCrits on Salvation.

On an MC30 it does make for fine double-arc little ship eater. Paired with xi7s it'll munch Arqs and anything smaller easily.

As you can double side arc an MC30 on a medium and large base ship, its less useful compared to APTs etc.

Someday I'd like to put the fear of ordnance into my opponent again with an OrdExp VSD-I using Expanded Launchers. Sadly until VSDs can get the speed they need...

I rather have APT with OE

22 hours ago, Vergilius said:

I'd go further than snipafist. MC30s tend to get one good shot and then zoom off, and so ER seem like a good buy there if you're not going ordinance.

I think EL has a place on Demolisher, where you get the two extra black dice on each successful Demolisher attack. And I think the pricing on the upgrade reflects that it will be used for exactly this reason.

I think it depends on the build.

If you're running Mothma with Admonition and Foresight, your Torpedo Frigates are able to stick around a little bit longer, or at the very least, engage another target after unleashing the first volley.

I wouldn't take Expanded Launchers without Intel Officer, so it's definitely an investment, but can be worth it despite the introduction of External Racks.

13 hours ago, GammonLord said:

On an MC30 it does make for fine double-arc little ship eater. Paired with xi7s it'll munch Arqs and anything smaller easily.

As you can double side arc an MC30 on a medium and large base ship, its less useful compared to APTs etc.

I would prefer h9s otherwise flotillas will just scatter you. Xi7s are are strong but getting a cfm acc for the brace is even more important imo with such a large double payload(I often see ECm only on Afs)

And while mc30 can double side arc I feel it is not easy to do. Although large base has longer side profile it is not easy to plant the mc30 such that the large base has no choice but to line up nicely for your double side arc. Approach from the front is more certain, but narrower front profile means you have to get really close without overlap, and the mc30 is more a suicide run at that point if the large base is an isd.

I think the more important question is what can EL do here that ER can't do. Granted if you are indeed able to setup double side-srcs regularly then ER is also more flexible here as you can add those 2 blacks to your(already manly-muscle big guns) side arcs, while EL is stuck to front.....