So, when first Tom O' Seven appears with Lord Beric's outlaws, he eventually says that he had some troubles in... Riverun or the Frey's palace? I don't recal...

Anyway, after Lord Beric's (look out, here goes a spolier of the fourth book) passes his life strenght to Cat, Tom remains with the Freys. So he wasn't there when the Red Wedding occured.

So when Edmure (ops... here goes another spoiler) meets Tom at the siege of Riverun, and Jaime orders Tom to play for Edmure, the latter says exactly:: "No. Not him. Get him away from me." So... has this two met before? On what circumstances?

Catelyn mentions at some point that Edmure doesn't like minstrels/bards largely because of an episode where he was sweet on a girl who was "wooed away" (cough cough) by a singer. I always kind of assumed, with Tom's reputation, that we know who said singer is.

ktom said:

yeah, that could really be it. thanks for reminding me! poor Edmure...

but what is Tom O' Seven doing with the Freys? I thought that maybe he wasn't so inclined to follow Cat as he was to follow Lord Beric... but... it could also be part of a larger plot. He would be a very well placed piece, that's for sure...

Oh, Tom O'Sevens is definitely the one who woed away Edmure's lady he "sang a song about a floppy fish," if I remember the quote. And, honestly, who knows what exactly Tom and Edmure talked about while Jamie left the two of them alone. And the fact that Tom sticks around with the new Frey lord can only mean trouble in the future.

I can honestly see Tom aiding in the retaking of Riverrun. Possibly opening the gates for Cat's group for justice.

There is no justice in Cat's group, only revenge. She went from a character I liked to one I hate.

tomato...tamoto....potato....patato...you know the rest

By Catelyn's water-logged reasoning, it is justice. Lord Frey took all her sons. She's doing the same. She's evening up the percentage, not the absolute value.

Waaay back in the first book, you knew something like this was going to happen when Frey kept going on about "matching" people son-for-son and coming out ahead.

Cat's "Justice" is simply vengeance, and completely back and white/for or against. She has no tolerance for those who won't support her cause, as Brienne learns, and is willing to exact that "justice" on people only peripherally related to her decisions.

I want to see Walder Frey get his come-uppance, and I'm sure he will he betrayed Guestright, after all. But I can't agree with with Cat is doing after what she has become.

JerusalemJones said:

we can see a reason behind any act. we are imaginative people, after all.

I do prefer to balance someone's actions with their own way of seeing things, instead of balacing it with my way, or the actions of others. and I do think that Cat's actions became utterly cruel, for her own standards.

do you remember her behaviour right before she got her throat sliced? do you remember the description Martin gave us? there were one in Cat's chapter, when something just cracked inside of her... and other in someone else's chapter, when they said she laughed and laughed...

it is all explainable, I'm sure. when we look at someone's behaviour and mach it with his own way of looking at things, with his own values and importances, we always find explanations. it sure helps to connect with people... but it does not make their actions less tragical...

I do think Martin is very brave. He turns lovable characters in ones we hate. the way he does it, we cannot just hate them... we can see what they went through... it is a cruel world, with many cruel things happening... and justice won't be found in any actions that are not balanced openly. Danny's actions seems different... even when she does "cruel" things, she balanced them with the ways of seeing from others. she just do what she thinks she must...

I feel sad when I read what Cat's doing. I fell kinda angry with the people who are following her, because they are becoming what they seek to destroy. Toro is pointing just that. I just hated Lem wearing the Hound's helm, for instance... and I liked them all when the Lightning Lord was leading them...

I felt grief when they hanged Brienne. I'm not sure she will be dead, though. poor Brienne... if she lives, she will have scars that will make her the ugliest woman in Westeros.

do you think she will live? what was the last word she shouted? "Jaime"? "Renly"? or "yes"?

I think ktom called this correctly when he said the word was "Sword." Though my favorite answer was the person who said it started with B and rhymed with "Itch."

JerusalemJones said:

bwahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

ahem...

]

maybe she called the name of the sword... or it's opposite.

"Oathbreaker" could be a possibility after all, when Brienne swore her oath to Catelyn, Cat did say she would never stop Brienne from getting her vengence on Stannis for killing Renly. But, as Ktom pointed out a long time ago, Cat gave Brienne two choices sword or noose. Brienne refused to choose, and they gave her the noose, but if she screamed "sword" it is likely that she would be cut down (and possibly Hyle and Pod) to do what Catelyn demands (I won't use ask) of her.

JerusalemJones said:

yes, that do seems the most likely possibility. Brienne would be really upset when seeing Pod being hanged. I wouldn't expect her to choose the sword for her own safety.

I keep hoping she hadn't said that, though. even if it's a lost bet. as you said, JJ, that B word would make me happier. :]

JerusalemJones said:

Cately swore she would never ask anything of Brienne that would tarnish her honor, something that her demand is A Feast for Crows clearly contradict. By her own harsh standards of 'justice' she is guilty of a pretty monstrous crime.