With all the Sloane out there, it seems stacking as many dice into squadron killing as possible is the way to go. I thought about mixing the two, but A-wings can't counter if escort is taking the heat. I'm trying to figure out which way is better to go given, say, 75 points. I am played a game today and a Sloane list had Interceptors tossing like 6 dice my way. Glass cannons? Absolutely, but I wasn't prepared. I had a couple A-wings and Shara, but the counter didn't seem to stem the tide. It made me wonder which way model would be better against the hoarde. I am kind of liking the versatility of X-wings, but you can squeeze in an extra A-wing for the points or even Jan Ors.

Thoughts? Looking for both objective and subjective.

Thing is, if you're taking Escort, you're not using Counter, as you said.

If you're taking Jan Ors without Escort, you're paying for a very expensive A-Wing that can't scatter and will die first, probably without ever given a Brace to anyone else.

So you take Escort.

... But then you're not Countering, because your Escorts are being shot up...


So you can compromise and try both as a generic option... But if you're doing that, then YT-1300 all the way... Get Counter and Escort.

6x A-Wings for 66 pts. Top stuff.

Sneak a flight controllers out there.

9 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

So you can compromise and try both as a generic option... But if you're doing that, then YT-1300 all the way... Get Counter and Escort.

I thought so as well since the price was right, but you lose out on the versatility of bomber.

7 minutes ago, Geodes said:

I thought so as well since the price was right, but you lose out on the versatility of bomber.

If Toryn Farr is about, its on Par, if not better, anyway.

(And she should be, to help those Counter-Rolls in the first place, in said build)

I've spent a lot of time on this problem, and it is very difficult to get X-wings to do what your A-wings can do. You seem to be talking of a light to medium squadron screen.

One of the keys to playing a light squadron set-up well is using your ship flak. Toryn is great for boosting both A-wing main attacks and counters, and any blue flak you put up.

Your light squadron screen is 4 A-wings and around 50 points.

Your medium squadron screen should really start looking to have a strong anti-ship component if it can win the squadron game. After 4 A-wings, you'll find that the next two may not have anything shoot at them, because the opponent would rather focus on your first few A-wings. So if you're really looking to be the most effective in the squadron game, then 2 YT2400s are your next buy. That can take you to the 80s, with a flexibile, but largely defense first squadron set-up. The X-wings start to get interesting at this point because it becomes feasible to bring Jan along and use her braces. A long time ago, I also ran Jan/1X/4As. The X protects Jan, and Jan can brace everyone, including the A-wings. You then just have to watch the positioning on the X-wing. The X likely dies, and if you position well, you can tie a few squads up without getting them caught in X-wing's escort range. Jan is a bit vulnerable with only one X, but I think you take the risk here. There's no perfect squadron set-up. The only question is whether you can get your particular set-up to fulfill its objectives.

38 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

There's no perfect squadron set-up. The only question is whether you can get your particular set-up to fulfill its objectives.

This is true. Objectives really change the dynamics. If you are playing a heavy squadron game, you are sacrificing not only a heavy ship, but an activation. Or maybe two light ships and two activations.

22 minutes ago, Geodes said:

This is true. Objectives really change the dynamics. If you are playing a heavy squadron game, you are sacrificing not only a heavy ship, but an activation. Or maybe two light ships and two activations.

Maybe objectives is the wrong word because my intent could too easily be confused with the game objectives. Maybe purpose is a better word. If I'm playing 50 points of squads, the purpose is to harass, annoy, pick off some points and maybe a key unit. A-wings in particular tend to spread around a lot of damage, and therefore you need to back them up with some good AS. If you're playing 134 points of squads with 4 bombers, there is a different objective to that list---you just put a lot of your anti-ship power into your squads, so everything about the list should maximize that potential.

On sacrifices and activations, maybe you sacrifice an activation. It depends upon how heavily one upgrades the ships, and what ships. Take Rieekan Aceholes, for example, an AF2, Yavaris, and 3 flotillas. Only two combat ships with a tiny boost to anti-ship damage, but 5 activations nonetheless. To get 7 activations, you practically have to go squadronless. I've seen 6 with around 30 points of squads. I run 5 in my Madine list, but I get two very hard hitting ships out of it. Now what I do see is that a heavy squadron game might make it easier to go 4 activations. Squadrons are pretty maneuverable and mobile damage units, and a strong activation can change the game state rapidly.

So that takes us back to that light A-wing screen. you can go back and answer a question after every game. Did I really deploy my squadrons to harrass, annoy, and otherwise make it difficult for my opponent's larger squadron force to hit my ships? If the squadron game went heavily against you, the answer is most of the time, no. Which takes you back to how you deploy, where you place, and even how and when you activate the squads. There's a fine art here.

my usual logic is that A-Wing can handle not being activated all the time, while X-Wings prefer being activated. So, if I go with a low squadron value fleet, I'll stick with A-Wings. If I have a dedicated carrier, X-Wings it is.

X-wings and here's why:

For the following A-wing vs X-wing comparison I am going to assume competently played fleets with builds designed to support a Squadron fight. I am looking at this from the perspective of the Rebel player wanting to survive against a TIE swarm. I am not going into detailed mathematical statistics as everyone's eyes just glaze over and it makes for awful, dry reading and you all get the basic idea.

Points cost:

1st off, the A-wing is cheaper than the X-wing but not by enough to significantly impact the number of Squadrons that can be fielded. Taking a horde of A-wings may allow you to field one more squadron or perhaps squeeze an ACE in there instead of a normal squadron, but that's it. The TIE swarm will still have numbers on you: it's what they do.

Special Abilities:

The A-wing has Counter 2, which allows the A-wing to strike back when attacked but with only 2 Dice it can't kill a TIE fighter unless it was already damaged.

The X-wing has Escort and Bomber. Escort allows the X-wing to take the heat from other Squadrons making it good when paired up with other high value Squadrons (like Jan Ors). While the A-wing has the better basic Die for attacking ships, Bomber gives the X-wing nearly the same chance to cause damage BUT it also has the chance to do either double damage or cause a Crit, which the A-wing can not.

Normal Stats:

The A-wing is fast, significantly faster than an X-wing but only slightly faster than a TIE and on par with a TIE-Int. This allows better positioning for the A-wing and a better chance to get the first attack (the Alpha Strike) off on the TIE swarm. The problem is that most TIE swarm builds will also include TIE-Ints, so really the A-wing's speed is simply bringing you close to parity with your enemy, NOT giving you a decisive advantage. However, it is a strength that the A-wing has over the X-wing.

The X-wing has better anti-squadron firepower and more Hull and that's what's really important here, as we are about to see...

The dogfight:

Time to put it into action: Unless the Imperial player has really done something dumb, the TIEs are going to get the Alpha Strike. The Rebel play may be able to pull it off but assuming two equal and competent opponents, the advantage goes to the Imperial's TIE swarm.

So, the TIEs come screaming in. They've got Flight Controllers and Swarm and Howlrunner and sometimes Mauler Mithel and even Ruthless Strategists. It's a mean mess of extra dies and re-rolls and auto-damage. Dengar is probably around somewhere too, bandages flapping in the space-wind like the Red Baron. Lets say that big ball of Imperial hate slams into a flock of A-wings. With only 4 Hulls point vs the TIEs throwing 5 Blue Dice plus a re-roll or a TIE-Int tossing 6!, each TIEs has a believable chance of totally destroying an A-wing in the very first volley. The only shots the A-wings are probably going to get to make this game are those 2 Counter dice, which is not even enough to pop a single cheap TIE fighter. If you survived and got to activate, sure maybe between the Counter damage and the attack you can pop that TIE, but it's nearly a sure thing that the Imperial player can take out all your A-wings while only needing to commit 1:1 onto your Squadrons and he will outnumber you so he's got any extra squadrons he needs to seal the deal (remember there's Mithel, ship flak and possibly Ruthless Strategists to contend with too!). Sure, you can cause some damage, but ultimately the A-wings have simply not reduced the number of Dice coming back again next round. A TIE with 1 Hull remaining still throws as many dice as a full health TIE. You just lost 11 points to damage, but not destroy, an 8 point Squadron.

Let's try this again, with X-wings! The same TIE cloud comes screaming in, only this time they need to score 6 hits, not 4. Can the TIE kill the X-wing? Not alone. The TIE can't score 6 hull damage on your X-wing without using a special ability like Ruthless Strategist or Mauler Mithel or throwing a 2nd TIE at the same X-wing. It's the same way he kills all the A-wings but the difference here is the Imperial play HAS to do this to kill your X-wings, not just mop up the remaining lucky few. Here's the thing; while the TIEs outnumber the X-wings, they don't outnumber them by 2:1! Sure, you're going to lose some X-wings and the ones you have left are likely hurting, but you're also going to have some still left on your turn. The X-wings just edge the A-wing out but that tiny edge makes the difference between being removed for the board, or getting to take your own turn...

Now, the X-wings get to activate. The A-wings never made it this far. When the X-wings go, they get their own Flight Controller bonus and Toryn Farr and whatever else, so the X-wings are throwing at least 4 dice each, probably more and possibly with a re-roll. That should be enough to pop a TIE fighter each in return. Still not a fair trade but now you've cut down the number of Dice coming at.

At some point during all this you have the big ships tossing in their flak and picking off all those fighters that thought they could limp off with only 1 Hull point left. Honestly, It doesn't look very good for the Rebels but the point is you're trying to cut down that massive swarm to a meager handful that your capital ships can handle. It's going to be a mess but it'll be decided by the end of turn 2 or 3 if it really drags on. Worst case: your Squadrons got their faces bloodied to save your fleet. If you didn't face a fully committed and supported TIE swarm, then it's likely you've now achieved Squadron Superiority and that nice Bomber ability on the X-wing is about to come into play!

Now fair is fair, so let's say you took A-wings and got the Alpha strike. The A-wings face the same problem against the TIEs that the TIEs do vs the X-wings: Not being able to bring enough dice to reliably seal the deal on a 1:1 basis. So even with supporting buffs, the A-wings will be not able to reliably destroy an equal number of TIEs. Did we mention Dengar? Yeah.. now the A-wings get to eat some Counter dice which is going to do enough damage right there to pretty much seal the deal when the TIEs activate, because you couldn't kill them all. In either scenario the A-wings are paste without even being able to kill their own number in return.

So let's talk about Aces!

I know some of you are dying to chime in about so-and-so doing such-and-such. Well, time to pop some fantasy bubbles. It's going to take on average two TIEs (and/ or other supporting things) to bring down a generic X-wing. Interestingly enough, it's also going to take the same amount of resources to bring down an ACE. Why? Because those TIEs are throwing down a truckload of Blue dice and Blue dice have accuracies. Those tokens probably aren't going to save your Aces. What was slightly overkill to take down a single normal X-wing is exactly what they need to take down an Ace, which cost significantly more. Too many Aces in your list means too few hulls and the TIE swarm becomes even more effective.

That doesn't mean don't take any aces, just be very picky on the few you do take. Jan absolutely shines in this. The X-wings with Escort will keep her safe, at least through the initial Alpha strike, and the TIEs can't accuracy her brace tokens, making the Imperial player devote even more resources to killing 1 or 2 of X-wings. Biggs is good to help spread the damage around and keep some X-wings alive just long enough to see another turn. Wedge is about guaranteed to pop a TIE. You've got Yavaris and Adar Tallon, right? Toryn and Flight Controllers? Your own Ruthless Strategists?

On the attack, don't go after the Imperial Aces. Target the generic Squadrons first. If you are facing a committed swarm build, it's not going to go well for you (read: Pyrrhic Victory). You need to knock down as many Squadrons as possible and it's a whole lot easier to kill normal Squadrons than Aces. You can kill 2-3 normal TIE Squadrons for what it's going to take to kill one of the Imperial Aces. I know you want to get rid of those buffs but listen, those buffs help them kill your Squadrons (which are gonna die anyways) but those Aces generally don't do a whole lot to your SHIPS. This isn't X-wing, this is ARMADA! Ships matter. Would you rather have 3 squadrons rolling dice at your ships, or one? Let's say you pop Howlrunner: you've eliminated her and all those other TIEs have lost... 1 die each. That's it. For the same amount of effort you could have probably popped all her nameless friends and made a more significant impact on the overall total number of dice that will be coming back at you next turn. Buffs don't work if there's no one left to buff.

It's all about the numbers.

uhh. i spent about 20-30 games playtesting vs mass squadrons in Wave5. If i may offer some insights heres what id do:

1. if you KNOW theyre gonna take mass bombers, just say fk it, and build yourself a mass squadorn build, maybe erring on AA side: ex. Tie Defenders are good AA. Ten Numb, Wedge Dagger + bombers and Jan, is very good. I don't think in wave6 squadrons are the only viable thing: but i tend to find an AA-max-sqadron build soft counters someone going bombers. Go Gallant Haven maybe.

2. Medium 6 squadron under 80 pts will only last you 2 turns vs max fighters. You do want 90-100 with some reasonable anti-ship if you go this route.

3. Doing the above medium 6sq build is really pointless vs mass squadorns. And youll constantly lose a free 80 points to him.

4. AWINGS. not xwings: you wont get alpha strung by Sloane ties, you don't need to screen as hard, theyre speed 5. And counter 2 is better than being alpha struck out for 0. Also, toryn farr is beast.

Just now, Dameon13 said:

I know some of you are dying to chime in about so-and-so doing such-and-such. Well, time to pop some fantasy bubbles. It's going to take on average two TIEs (and/ or other supporting things) to bring down a generic X-wing. Interestingly enough, it's also going to take the same amount of resources to bring down an ACE.

The rest of your post notwithstanding, this piece in particular very much depends on the specific matchup, and varies from true under some circumstances to just inaccurate .

I appreciate all the thought that clearly went into Dameon's post.

I would make a few quibbles with it. First, it is about the numbers, but it is also about how you fly it. And some of my quibbling is that most of the post speaks in terms of generalities, whereas we could look at these match-ups at specific price points.

Most of the assumptions seemed fair enough (damage to kill an A and X, Ties getting the alpha jump, difficulties in the return alpha). But I had trouble seeing where the constants and the variables where. The post jumped from a Tie alpha strike on an undisclosed point value of squadrons to mentioning Yavaris and Jan at various points.

I took the post to mean light versus medium squads, and if you fix a price point and compare what you can get in As and Xs, you get pretty different results.

At light squads (50 points), nothing compares to A-wings. This is too cheap to have a lot of squadron supporting upgrades in your fleet, and too cheap for the X-wings by comparison to have Jan with them. At 52 points, you have 4 X-wings and that's it. Let's agree with Dameon's assumptions: the alpha strike kills X-wings at 2 to 1 for the Ties. That's 3 dead X-wings. One of them returns 4 blue dice, then dies the next round before firing its own activation. It isn't hard to see that you could take Shara Bey for 17 points and get better performance with her as the one squad than you would out of 4 X-wings. The alpha strike should come in with your A-wings right at your ships, so the A-wings need only knock some squads down for the ship AS to finish the Ties.

Once you go to 70-90 points, you're investing so much in squadrons that supporting upgrades make sense, and you've finally got enough points to throw Jan in there, and possibly Biggs. You're also looking to do things other than merely ward off attacks on your ships. You need some of those points to come around and help in the ship game. Here, I think Dameon's analysis holds much better. You're generally looking for that speed bump out of A-wings. 50 points is alright to pay for that. 66+ starts getting really expensive.

Toryn hwks. A hwk on 1 hull pt escapes.

18 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Toryn hwks. A hwk on 1 hull pt escapes.

ive been thinking about hawks lately, even with speed 5 imps tend to want to alpha strike, hawks are 1 pt more but are all pretty much mini tychos

Y wings can do just as good also. Have plaed against max y wing list and it is not a joke. Through in flight controlers and same at least are also hitting with 3 blue plus god hull

16 minutes ago, Radaeon said:

Y wings can do just as good also. Have plaed against max y wing list and it is not a joke. Through in flight controlers and same at least are also hitting with 3 blue plus god hull

Y-wings are heavy.

Go A-wings or Z's. If they are gonna one shot your fighters anyway (which is super probable with Sloan, lower investment on fighters on your part, and Mauler) bodies mean more than stats. It's better to lose a Z to one shot than an X-wing and if you're facing a Sloan ball with a smaller fighter screen, you're trying to buy time and not fighter kills.

It really depends on the rest of your fleet and what kind of squadrons you're most worried about. A-Wings are superior if you're running support-light (no Bomber Command Center, for example, or other squadrons that want to be Escorted) and they're superior against other fighters without Intel coverage due to Counter 2. X-Wings are superior if you're running more support (BCCs help, as do other squadrons that want to be Escorted, like Jan or bombers) and they're superior against bombers with Intel coverage because their regular anti-squadron attack is superior to A-Wings and their lower speed isn't a problem when the bombers are coming to you.

If you're currently worried about Sloane, I'd go A-Wings based on those qualifications.

Dameon pretty much covers everything in his post. But an easy way to look at it is this.

A wing's are best vs Tie fighters and Tie bombers and rubbish vs everything else. Why? because of their hull 4. Against Tie interceptor's an Interceptor has a good chance to one shot a A-wing. Same for a Tie defender. That and the odds of shooting first are the same.
Where as with the Tie fighter, the A-wing should ALWAYS shoot first. Due to higher speed.
The X-wing's hull means it will always (unless they have + dice modifiers) survive a shot from an Interceptor or Defender.

A wing's rely on their speed to make sure that the targets are dead before they shoot back. Perfect vs Tie fighters.

17 minutes ago, Sniperbon said:

Against Tie interceptor's an Interceptor has a good chance to one shot a A-wing.

A standalone interceptor has a 6% chance to one-shot an A-wing. That's not very good odds.

In fact, the A-wing has better odds to one-shot the interceptor, at 12.5%. If we give the interceptor the swarm reroll, that puts the two back on parity.

Mainly "a good chance" was a bit misleading. Still, the A-wing suffers because of its low hull. It's speed is what saves it.

Either I must be really unlucky (or my opponent lucky) as interceptor's regularly one shot my A-wings when I fly them

I would say that with the right tactics, a Combo og X-wings and A-wings, would work very nice.

Have the X-wings up front with Jan Ors (throw in Biggs for good measure if you like using him), they will bear the brunt of the first Alpha strike.

Have the A-wings far enough to the rear, that they can't be reached by the Alpha Strike (or lure it to overextend itself). but they are close enough to go to either flank of the X-wing ball to pick off the most isolated enemy sqds on a 2-3 vs 1 engagement.

I think if all you're taking is a small fighter screen then A-Wings are the way to go. Counter 2 and speed 5 are worth more to me than 1 extra hull and 1 more attack die.

For most bang for you're buck then A-wings are probably the best choice. Ultimately its how you use you're squadrons. Positioning,tactics and what you what you're squadrons to achieve in the battle.
What the A-wing makes up for is versatility. Black die for ships is pretty good.
Just don't expect you're A-wing's to take on Tie defenders, leave that for the X's