Clearly, we need to measure in TIE Fighters and Z95s.

MoV is awarded in half healths for anything 13-24pts. 25-36pt ships give out MoV in thirds; 37-48pt ships give out MoV in quarters. This way everything is perfectly fair because everything loses MoV at the same rate as a swarm. Perfect, right? (no)

... or we could just declare it to be any ship worth more than, say, 30pts. Or 25. Pick a number and run with it. It's not the size of the base or the HP of the hull (Remember killing 1HP Whispers, kids?), but that you can load so many points onto a single hull, and that on said hulls you've often invested a lot into making it hard to kill outright.

Why not ships with 8pts?

What's so unfair about that 9th point of hull? Did a TIE Punisher steal your candy?

On 2017-07-30 at 11:29 PM, Chibi-Nya said:

Well, I guess Agility is totally irrelevant in the Nym meta. Only Health can save you!

This is why the OP suggestion makes sense! Nym will bring down a Tie Interceptor to 1 hull if he ever gets to range 1. It's also why Nym design makes no sense if FFG's goal is to avoid power creeps. Bomblet + Auto turret is 3-4 auto dmg at range 1. Thats stronger than Fenn imo. The ships that have the most problem with that type of dmg are also the ones that have been struggling for quite some time now.

5 hours ago, SOTL said:

Why not ships with 8pts?

What's so unfair about that 9th point of hull? Did a TIE Punisher steal your candy?

No I love the Tie Punisher and fly it all the time, Got 3rd in a tourament with two tie punishers and a Palp shuttle a few week ago, before wave 11. Check X-wing Juggler missed 2nd by 17 points. I'm just trying to balance the game, so it forces people to fight again, instead of run and plink

36 minutes ago, Thormind said:

This is why the OP suggestion makes sense! Nym will bring down a Tie Interceptor to 1 hull if he ever gets to range 1. It's also why Nym design makes no sense if FFG's goal is to avoid power creeps. Bomblet + Auto turret is 3-4 auto dmg at range 1. Thats stronger than Fenn imo. The ships that have the most problem with that type of dmg are also the ones that have been struggling for quite some time now.

it's also far easier to kill than Fenn Rau given its utter lack of defensive modification

given the standard of powercrept ships (i.e jumpmaster, miranda, and perhaps this new rebel jank hotness), nym is a very poor example

Shouldn't the MOV thing just be part of the organized play FAQ thing? They always make random changes to that one, it wouldn't even be too devastating to just try stuff in there to mix things up a bit and see what happens. It doesn't involve doing anything except just writing 1 thing in that PDF and letting people know.

6 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it's also far easier to kill than Fenn Rau given its utter lack of defensive modification

given the standard of powercrept ships (i.e jumpmaster, miranda, and perhaps this new rebel jank hotness), nym is a very poor example

Nym survives at least 3 turn vs it's own dmg. If he joust with Fenn and they both start at full health, Nym wins 100% of the time. There is a reason why Fenn is droping in the meta ranking. He went from best pilot (last month before wave 11) to 13th position (wave 11 to today). Meanwhile Nym managed to get a top 3 within a month of release.

He is one of the best option vs rebel jank (do you mean Biggs Lowrisk?) since it's dmg bypass defense and he likes to drop bomblets on that tight ship formation. On top of that hes PS10 and pretty good at arc dodging since he doesnt really care about TL or focus.

Nym is 100% a powercreep and FAR from fragile. Some people were denying that and tried to make him appear fragile before release. The stats are already showing they were wrong.

"Heh" -49-point Corran

12 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Nym survives at least 3 turn vs it's own dmg. If he joust with Fenn and they both start at full health, Nym wins 100% of the time. There is a reason why Fenn is droping in the meta ranking. He went from best pilot (last month before wave 11) to 13th position (wave 11 to today). Meanwhile Nym managed to get a top 3 within a month of release.

He is one of the best option vs rebel jank (do you mean Biggs Lowrisk?) since it's dmg bypass defense and he likes to drop bomblets on that tight ship formation. On top of that hes PS10 and pretty good at arc dodging since he doesnt really care about TL or focus.

Nym is 100% a powercreep and FAR from fragile. Some people were denying that and tried to make him appear fragile before release. The stats are already showing they were wrong.

This. Though I'd love to hear @ficklegreendice's retort.

This should happen, but it should happen to all ships. There's literally no reason to keep it just to the high hp/most points ones. That's just arbitrary limitations that make design harder, are hard to keep in check and add to the rules creep.

Killing Soontir can easily be much more challenging than killing Miranda for many lists.

And the Crackswarm isn't going to die just because your opponent can now score those meaty seven points for dealing 2 damage to a black squadron pilot. Heck, TIEs might actually make a return because killing a ship such as Miranda or even Fenn can be quite a chore for them.

40 minutes ago, Chibi-Nya said:

Shouldn't the MOV thing just be part of the organized play FAQ thing?

The problem with this -- and it already exists to some extent, because of half-MoV-for-Large -- is ... what do you balance for? Do you balance for tournaments, because half-MoV is a tournament rule? Or do you balance for the game itself, ship against ship, because the game rules have no mention of half-MoV, and most people that buy X-Wing don't play tournaments or timed games?

This is one reason -- of many -- that half-MoV-for-Large ships was such a lazy, goofy, non-problem-addressing, yet overly broad kludge of a stupid rule.

21 minutes ago, Elavion said:

Killing Soontir can easily be much more challenging than killing Miranda for many lists.

Yet Miranda is top meta and Soontir is nowhere to be seen. Why? Because Soontir only has 3 HP and his defense is actually not high enough to protect them. Bombs, autoblaster turret, ships with 4-5-6 fully moded red dices... Miranda has a much easier time surviving that than Soontir. In the current meta HP>any other form of defense.

You want to get half of Soontir points because Nym managed to get at range 1 just once?

12 minutes ago, Thormind said:

You want to get half of Soontir points because Nym managed to get at range 1 just once?

Especially 'cause, ya know.. FFG gave Nym no reason to be less than PS 10

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Yet Miranda is top meta and Soontir is nowhere to be seen. Why? Because Soontir only has 3 HP and his defense is actually not high enough to protect them. Bombs, autoblaster turret, ships with 4-5-6 fully moded red dices... Miranda has a much easier time surviving that than Soontir. In the current meta HP>any other form of defense.

You want to get half of Soontir points because Nym managed to get at range 1 just once?

Soontir is currently out of the metagame, but once the bombs stop being such a hard counter (not entirely convinced if advSlam nerf will be enough, but eventually we will go back to a dogfighting meta) he will come back.

Besides, ships like Fenn, Vessery, OL and Quickdraw see a good amount of play and can be really hard to take down when flown well. I see no reason for them not to award half points.

Not to mention Fair Ship Rebels.

Here's hoping they allow people with Auto Thrusters to roll a green die for every bomb token hit. If you roll an evade ignore that bomb completely. Now the game becomes a little more balanced and they sell more Star Vipers.

20 minutes ago, Elavion said:

Soontir is currently out of the metagame, but once the bombs stop being such a hard counter (not entirely convinced if advSlam nerf will be enough, but eventually we will go back to a dogfighting meta) he will come back.

I really hope so but seing them release and unlimited bomb that can be droped pre or post maneuver with Genius, i see no reason to think bombs are getting under control. Like you said Adv Slam wont solve the problem, especially now that we have Nym. Also i dont think the problem is limited to only bombs. 4-5 dices attack, missiles, torp and ability/upgrades that bypass defense are just as bad for a 3hull ship if not worst.w

25 minutes ago, Elavion said:

Besides, ships like Fenn, Vessery, OL and Quickdraw see a good amount of play and can be really hard to take down when flown well. I see no reason for them not to award half points.

Not to mention Fair Ship Rebels.

You got a good point here. But droping Fenn to half hull is just as easy to do for Nym than it is with Soontir. Just need to be at range 1 once.

As for the rebel built, i prefer the name "Biggs Lowrisk". There is nothing fair about that squad :-)

3 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

This. Though I'd love to hear @ficklegreendice's retort.

it'd basically amount to: trading Fenn for Nym is hugely in your favor

or fly differently instead of derping into range 1

using a scout or something as a living wall is a great example, even if Nym bombs it with genius it isn't doing that much %dmg relative to the jump's health and keeps Rau safe from autoblaster

not to mention that, unlike Rau, Nym will fold like wet paper to even 2 dice PWTs

29 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

it'd basically amount to: trading Fenn for Nym is hugely in your favor

or fly differently instead of derping into range 1

using a scout or something as a living wall is a great example, even if Nym bombs it with genius it isn't doing that much %dmg relative to the jump's health and keeps Rau safe from autoblaster

not to mention that, unlike Rau, Nym will fold like wet paper to even 2 dice PWTs

You wouldn't be "trading" Fenn as much as you'd lose him in hopes of getting some meaningful shots into Nym in 2-3 rounds.

But what you're saying is embrace the fact that a majority of ships are now competitively irrelevant because they don't have the hull/shield values to survive this auto-damage, game of Auzitrition.

Scum, Biggs, or bust.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

I really hope so but seing them release and unlimited bomb that can be droped pre or post maneuver with Genius, i see no reason to think bombs are getting under control. Like you said Adv Slam wont solve the problem, especially now that we have Nym. Also i dont think the problem is limited to only bombs. 4-5 dices attack, missiles, torp and ability/upgrades that bypass defense are just as bad for a 3hull ship if not worst.w

You got a good point here. But droping Fenn to half hull is just as easy to do for Nym than it is with Soontir. Just need to be at range 1 once.

As for the rebel built, i prefer the name "Biggs Lowrisk". There is nothing fair about that squad :-)

Why do you keep bringing up Nym?

Yes, this guy* in particular is great at taking down ps<10 glass cannons, but there's a long list of other things that aren't. As a counter-example, just because I've played dozens of lists that mutilate Miranda, doesn't mean she's a healthy design.

*also K-Wings

35 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

You wouldn't be "trading" Fenn as much as you'd lose him in hopes of getting some meaningful shots into Nym in 2-3 rounds.

But what you're saying is embrace the fact that a majority of ships are now competitively irrelevant because they don't have the hull/shield values to survive this auto-damage, game of Auzitrition.

well no, I'm telling you to apply a strategy such that that won't happen or to accept that, if it does, killing Nym (which isn't that hard to do, even with 2 dice pwts) will still put you ahead

ofc if your Rau jousts a bomblett Nym with AC autoblaster, then hey you knew what you were getting yourself into

just put something inbetween the low-health arc-dodger and its hardcounter

32 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

well no, I'm telling you to apply a strategy such that that won't happen or to accept that, if it does, killing Nym (which isn't that hard to do, even with 2 dice pwts) will still put you ahead

ofc if your Rau jousts a bomblett Nym with AC autoblaster, then hey you knew what you were getting yourself into

just put something inbetween the low-health arc-dodger and its hardcounter

Git gud. Got it...

19 minutes ago, Elavion said:

Why do you keep bringing up Nym?

Yes, this guy* in particular is great at taking down ps<10 glass cannons, but there's a long list of other things that aren't. As a counter-example, just because I've played dozens of lists that mutilate Miranda, doesn't mean she's a healthy design.

*also K-Wings

Dash, Miranda and her 6 dice missiles , Fenn, Old Teroch, Asajj (not for the offense but bc of the stress), Stressbot, Scurrg alpha, builds with Jan Ors, almost anything equiped with good missiles/torp, Vader crew, feedback array, black market slicer tool, many bombs, the list goes on. Also if the leacked FAQ turns out to be untrue you add to that scouts and Slam/bomb. Nym is just another brick in a wall that was already thick enough... Problem is the things that are good vs fragile ships are also generally good in most situation so they make top meta and are omnipresent.

37 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

well no, I'm telling you to apply a strategy such that that won't happen or to accept that, if it does, killing Nym (which isn't that hard to do, even with 2 dice pwts) will still put you ahead

ofc if your Rau jousts a bomblett Nym with AC autoblaster, then hey you knew what you were getting yourself into

just put something inbetween the low-health arc-dodger and its hardcounter

There will always be strategies to deal with most ships, even the OP ones. Afterall it is quite possible to win vs triple scouts. What makes a ship/build OP is the fact that they give a player much higher chances of winning and always put more pressure on your opponent than yourself. Basically he needs to play almost perfectly to win while you can make some mistakes and still be ok...

It's almost always like that when you play imperials. You can win but you better be close to perfection :-)

6 minutes ago, Thormind said:

There will always be strategies to deal with most ships, even the OP ones. Afterall it is quite possible to win vs triple scouts. What makes a ship/build OP is the fact that they give a player much higher chances of winning and always put more pressure on your opponent than yourself. Basically he needs to play almost perfectly to win while you can make some mistakes and still be ok...

it's not that simple for nym, as his jousting value is utter garbage especially compared to the actually crazy things out there (see: jumpmasters)

Nym's crap efficiency means he's crutching on his gimmick, which means his effectiveness is 100% predicated on the player putting him in that advantageous range 1 scenario or else he's basically worthless for his considerable cost which is a real pain in the *** against things that are difficult to bomb (esp dash and miranda)

know his strength, exploit his weakness at all other range, and plan your match accordingly

this isn't "git gud" as much as trying to leverage the whole strategy thing in a supposedly strategic game

13 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Well when using hull instead of all hit points you have to take into consideration two things. The first is regenerating shields, depending on an attack or a last turn could mean the diffrence between 1/2 MOV or no points. The only reason this hasn't came up is because large ships don't have that much in regeneration. The closest thing is Chewbacca <crew> which is an extra 2 hit points. R2-D2 <crew> give 1 maybe (assuming it doesn't flip over a direct hit).

Another thing to consider is effects that go through shields. My proposal for small ships rounded down, large ships rounded up (TIE Interceptor 1 hull left, Lambda Shuttle 3 hull left) is that a lucky proton bomb or AHM hit can instantly snag half the ships points. Back to regeneration with the exception of that one unique <astromech> upgrade there is no way of discarding damage cards after they have been dealt.

When this entire "half points for half health" thing started I always believed it should be based on the number of damage cards a ship has taken instead of that mysterious "hitpoint total" that includes Shields. It's pretty hard to clear off damage cards once they land and that "solution" removes Regeneration from the equation.

As for the idea that a luck Proton Bomb or AHM could instantly snag half a ship's points we probably should remember that they can also effectively REMOVE a ship from the game despite it still being at, or even above, half of its starting "hit points."