38 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

That seems like a reasonable possibility to me, except that it's awfully forward-thinking and complex, and FFG fixes have really never gone beyond the simple (which sometimes works, and sometimes doesn't). In this case, there's actually a pretty simple genuine fix for Biggs.

His ability needs to be strong, but allow the opposing player to retain choice, including the possibility of simply overwhelming it: "If another defending ship is at Range 1 of you, you may add 1 defense die to its defense roll."

I've seen this idea thrown around, but it's not really any stronger than Serissu's ability IMHO, which nobody plays (and didn't before Mindlink ate the Scum faction's variety, either)...

3 hours ago, AlexW said:

Radio TCX talks in depth about this list and interviews Tim Sturm, who flew it and won the FFG store championship. Link to Podbean: Episode 76

So Tim took the list from the Internet the night before and won a Store Championship. He a great player? Yes. The list really good? YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

...holy crap man; holy crap!

9 minutes ago, haslo said:

I've seen this idea thrown around, but it's not really any stronger than Serissu's ability IMHO, which nobody plays (and didn't before Mindlink ate the Scum faction's variety, either)...

Because if its not broken, its not competitive.

Fix for Biggs

14 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

So Tim took the list from the Internet the night before and won a Store Championship. He a great player? Yes. The list really good? YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS!

...holy crap man; holy crap!

Not quite the night before, and the list definitely has some significant advantages against a field unprepared for it. It does have the advantage of being a type of formation that people have been flying since Wave 1.

36 minutes ago, haslo said:

I've seen this idea thrown around, but it's not really any stronger than Serissu's ability IMHO, which nobody plays (and didn't before Mindlink ate the Scum faction's variety, either)...

It's slightly stronger than Serissu's ability, even in a vacuum. But (1) people do play Serissu, at least before the FAQ leak; ironically, I almost lost with Fair and Balanced to a Quad-Mangler Serissu Scyk list in the last SC I attended, (2) Rebels have stronger synergies, increasing the strength of the ability, and (3) it's a formation ability, at which Rebels excel.

Also, note that there's no requirement that the attacking ship be able to shoot Biggs ... only that the defending ship be at Range 1.

Finally, it is not supposed to be as strong as Biggs' current ability. If it's bench-marked on that basis, it will lose ... because that's the point. It only needs to be strong enough.

23 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Not quite the night before, and the list definitely has some significant advantages against a field unprepared for it. It does have the advantage of being a type of formation that people have been flying since Wave 1.

Not quite the night before? Well, in Tim's description he stated, and I'll quote him here here: "...not my list; didn't make it; stole it from the internet the night before, and gave it a go." at 04:38 in the interview. Sooooooo?

52 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Not quite the night before? Well, in Tim's description he stated, and I'll quote him here here: "...not my list; didn't make it; stole it from the internet the night before, and gave it a go." at 04:38 in the interview. Sooooooo?

I think he's exaggerating for effect. I know because I sent him the list earlier in the week (after seeing it won a store champ) and a couple of us talked about throughout. He saw it in action during practice earlier in the week. He may have decided on it the night before, but it wasn't completely like it was all that one night.

17 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I think he's exaggerating for effect. I know because I sent him the list earlier in the week (after seeing it won a store champ) and a couple of us talked about throughout. He saw it in action during practice earlier in the week. He may have decided on it the night before, but it wasn't completely like it was all that one night.

I understand, I just usually go by what people say....and it has gotten me into the odd corner every now and again. I guess the point is the same: run a Rebel Joust squad like usual, but it's now on synergistic steroids.

In just a week or so playing against or playing it around here, guys went from saying about the list, "what the h*** FFG, you gave Biggs a buff? Interesting design choice there; I'll try it." to, most recently, "that s*** is a terrible list to fly and to fly against. Nobody better bring that crap to casual nights or they'll be playing with themselves." For a two player game design, the addition of Selflessness and Reinforce is simply toxic, or obnoxious really.

Post-buff and pre-nerf X7 Defenders weren't as objectionable as the new Fairship is; certainly not here.

Pre-nerf Whisper wasn't this fast out of the gate into the abhorrent; but yeah, she and her pal Echo with their massive bid gained this level of ire eventually.

Tripple Jumps took a bit to gain their sick punching powers, but when they finally got going, they too were almost as rotten. But in their defense, they were a big punch and a tough block, but I'm not sure they went into the realm of NPE. Maybe because personally my fun lists were an almost even match. Anyway, I have lots of friends who have branded Fairship as a clear NPE.

Dengaroo gained the title of being really tough and unpleasant to play, but that came on slow, and it never got to this level of loathsomeness in my LGS. Heck, I found it a fairly easy squad to beat, but anyway.

Zuckuss was hated sure, because he was nuts on ships that didn't care. I guess he was just as disgusting, but it took quite a while for him to gain that negative accolade.

Palp did get a lot of salt thrown his way, but was he as reprehensible as this synergy? I'd say no. Heck, Lowhhrick basically dishes out the main Ace powers that Palp gained so much disdain for: free Evade results.

FFG designers sure are an unpredictable bunch; I have no idea what they're up to with this wave's release. I certainly hope they know however, and that this is part of a positive plan, because it's not looking good.

I've played against this list twice and was tabled both times. It's a lot of fun throwing ten dice at Biggs and doing zero damage to him. For me personally I won't play this list and if I get put across the table from someone playing it I will concede. I don't want to spend 75 minutes not doing any damage to a stupid X-Wing.

59 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I understand, I just usually go by what people say....and it has gotten me into the odd corner every now and again. I guess the point is the same: run a Rebel Joust squad like usual, but it's now on synergistic steroids.

In just a week or so playing against or playing it around here, guys went from saying about the list, "what the h*** FFG, you gave Biggs a buff? Interesting design choice there; I'll try it." to, most recently, "that s*** is a terrible list to fly and to fly against. Nobody better bring that crap to casual nights or they'll be playing with themselves." For a two player game design, the addition of Selflessness and Reinforce is simply toxic, or obnoxious really.

Post-buff and pre-nerf X7 Defenders weren't as objectionable as the new Fairship is; certainly not here.

Pre-nerf Whisper wasn't this fast out of the gate into the abhorrent; but yeah, she and her pal Echo with their massive bid gained this level of ire eventually.

Tripple Jumps took a bit to gain their sick punching powers, but when they finally got going, they too were almost as rotten. But in their defense, they were a big punch and a tough block, but I'm not sure they went into the realm of NPE. Maybe because personally my fun lists were an almost even match. Anyway, I have lots of friends who have branded Fairship as a clear NPE.

Dengaroo gained the title of being really tough and unpleasant to play, but that came on slow, and it never got to this level of loathsomeness in my LGS. Heck, I found it a fairly easy squad to beat, but anyway.

Zuckuss was hated sure, because he was nuts on ships that didn't care. I guess he was just as disgusting, but it took quite a while for him to gain that negative accolade.

Palp did get a lot of salt thrown his way, but was he as reprehensible as this synergy? I'd say no. Heck, Lowhhrick basically dishes out the main Ace powers that Palp gained so much disdain for: free Evade results.

FFG designers sure are an unpredictable bunch; I have no idea what they're up to with this wave's release. I certainly hope they know however, and that this is part of a positive plan, because it's not looking good.

To be fair, I didn't know what he said on the cast until after you pointed it out.

I don't disagree with you on the list, either.

FFG: Free evades are OP, we are nerfing Defenders and Palp

Also FFG:

3 hours ago, RIPCity said:

For me personally I won't play this list and if I get put across the table from someone playing it I will concede.

A lot people are saying that, or the only way to get a nerf for it, is if this is the only list at worlds.

The amount of salt in this thread is absurd. Furship rebels dies to Bombs and control hard. There's a solution for everything in X-Wing.

42 minutes ago, Darth Ruin said:

Furship rebels dies to Bombs and control hard.

Not really, no. The only thing it really dies "hard" to is massed TLTs. So yeah, there's a solution, but a hefty percentage of players would say the cure is at least as bad as the disease.

1 hour ago, Stilgod said:

FFG: Free evades are OP, we are nerfing Defenders and Palp

Also FFG:

I still say this is a symptom of the left hand not knowing (or caring) what the right hand is doing, or vice-versa. The left hand being the design team and the right hand being the people in charge of OP. Maybe they are the same people. I honestly don't know. But it seems likely that the rebel elements we have now were added with deadeye scouts and palp shuttle in mind. Those things were changed but the solution is now the problem. Solve this with another nerf, and whatever we get next is just the new problem instead of the solution to the current problem.

I flew against this list for the first time just a little while ago. I lost, but I feel that if the dice had been slightly different it could have been a far different outcome It is definitely a brutal list, but I found that it was nowhere near as annoying as Zuckuss pre-nerf or some of the other monsters that used to dominate. Although I was flying a four ship Imperial list that had a generic Phantom, 2 generic Interceptors, and a Striker. Against 2 ship lists I can see that it is terrible to play against since there is far less red dice being thrown than from a 4 ship build and it is easier to keep track of 2 ships than 4. I think that this list actually has a weakness to swarmy builds and effective blocking against this list can help greatly.

3 hours ago, Stilgod said:

FFG: Free evades are OP, we are nerfing Defenders and Palp

Also FFG:

???

Still requires an action.

40 minutes ago, LifeGain said:

I flew against this list for the first time just a little while ago. I lost, but I feel that if the dice had been slightly different it could have been a far different outcome

That's the thing about the list ... like Parattani, the list doesn't feel like it's unfair. You're still landing damage occasionally, after all, and because of the arcs and formation flying, they can't even shoot you every round.

But it's really, really unfair.

It's a very effective illusion that a game was happening. A game wasn't happening though.

6 hours ago, codegnave said:

Still requires an action.

Unless Biggs prevents shots at anyone else. Then it becomes essentially the same as Palp for Biggs, at a small cost of lower offense.

The list is built for maximal defense, so it will gladly sacrifice an offense focus for that goal.

That's the point he made - Lowhhrick gives you perfect information on when to use the evade. Yes it costs the action, but that action is very hard to prevent because you have to shoot Biggs. Exceptions are flechette torpedoes (which don't work), thermal detonators and e.g. Asajj. So highly specific.

Which brings us back to another point that was made before:

you can go TLT,

you can go bombs,

or you can go home

edit: the full list, I believe, of what can stress Lowhhrick:

Thermal Detonators, Mara Jade, Rebel Captive (easily avoided, shoot first with Biggs), Tactician (if paired with TL ordnance), Kylo's shuttle (but can be moved...), 4-LOM (Pilot), Asajj, Chopper (Pilot)

so you can argue for Tactician and Asajj. Bombs means only certain lists can compete.

But Mara Jade, 4Lom and chopper are no competitive options.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Unless Biggs prevents shots at anyone else. Then it becomes essentially the same as Palp for Biggs, at a small cost of lower offense.

The list is built for maximal defense, so it will gladly sacrifice an offense focus for that goal.

That's the point he made - Lowhhrick gives you perfect information on when to use the evade. Yes it costs the action, but that action is very hard to prevent because you have to shoot Biggs. Exceptions are flechette torpedoes (which don't work), thermal detonators and e.g. Asajj. So highly specific.

Which brings us back to another point that was made before:

you can go TLT,

you can go bombs,

or you can go home

On meta-wing although the Rebels are doing well it's Triple Jumps that are SMASHING IT whenever they get played.

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2017-07-13&ranking_end=2017-08-03&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

Fair Ship Rebels looks like it's better than Paratanni but it's interesting that the Thane version continues to outperform the Lowhhrick version, and the Triple Jumps percentile score is super-strong.

I'm probably switching to triple Scouts at the weekend.

Just now, SOTL said:

On meta-wing although the Rebels are doing well it's Triple Jumps that are SMASHING IT whenever they get played.

http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2017-07-13&ranking_end=2017-08-03&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

Fair Ship Rebels looks like it's better than Paratanni but it's interesting that the Thane version continues to outperform the Lowhhrick version, and the Triple Jumps percentile score is super-strong.

I'm probably switching to triple Scouts at the weekend.

Could be partially because of the players. I'd expect that many use the new hotness list without the ability to fly it to its full potential, which should be more often seen with the Thane version as that one is less publicly declared to be OP.

So I'd expect that the relative performance improves drastically as soon as we have tournaments self-censor to better players.

If I were right, and without having checked metawing as I'm on mobile, we should see several SC wins AND a low percentage.

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

If I were right, and without having checked metawing as I'm on mobile, we should see several SC wins AND a low percentage.

3 minutes ago, SOTL said:

Thanks. To salvage my statement: we should see relatively low percentage compared to SC wins. And more specifically: we should see a wide(r) distribution than other lists that win as often.

Of course the frequent wins will pull the numbers up. So the drop to Triplejumps and to the Thane version is exactly what I expected. Maybe the difference to the low 40s can be explained by more frequent wins?