10 minutes ago, Cr0aker said:

Biggs.

Lowhhrick

Jess

Rex

With some swapping around of upgrades.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

****. i know its around, but what is the exact list?

Wait, you were giving me a hard time for saying your idea wouldn't work without knowing the list??? There are some minor/cheap upgrades that make a big difference, like how Jess pulls off any crits with DTF (or whichever ship has it), which makes it just that much to kill one ship outright because rolling crits makes it harder.

actually - the upgrades are pretty important to figuring out the list... I still have to figure out how Biggs interacts with the action advantage theory of x-wing, likely easiest to count it as one per attack...

In this case, we have 7 + incoming attacks + those granted from upgrade cards - so AA wise, this squad is clearly up there with paratanni, the real trick is in what biggs can do to negate actions... R2D2 adds one per trigger, etc...

2 hours ago, Stoneface said:

True but I got tired typing with one finger on the Kindle.

Biggs has been complained about since day 1. Even after the nerf it didn't stop and as you have mentioned, it is getting worse. But we never hear about the drawbacks of using Biggs in your squadron make-up.

1) Post nerf you don't have to select a weapon that can target Biggs. If you have a secondary weapon that utilises a target lock, Biggs becomes a non-entity.

2) For Biggs to work, he's on a range one tether to the ship or ships he's protecting. That means:

A) The ships' he's escorting are basically tied to his dial. Their maneuvers are fairly limited.

B) His PS level means he will usually be bumping, limiting actions, unless he's placed to one side of the formation. Being in the center or back of the squad works in a head to head joust that will usually give him the R3 green die bonus. If you're controlling the approach you limit his effectiveness.

3) If the other ships in the squad are used to bolster Biggs' ability then they are not being kitted out to take maximum advantage of their abilities. This is in your favor.

4) Control the approach. A little Sun Tzu is helpful here. You can limit his effectiveness by choosing the time and place of the engagement.

1) Lowwrick and Jess with DTF are the correct answer to this - spreading that single-hit damage around, forcing them to spend their secondary weapons with little to show for it. During that first turn, Rex targets your most threatening ship.

2) Jess is already on a R1 tether, and makes a great wingmate for Biggs because of that. Frankly smart thinking. Lowwrick, likewise. Formation flying has been around since the beginning of X-Wing, but mostly for Imperials.

A) Most Rebel ships don't have great dials to begin with, unless they would only benefit from Biggs for that first crucial turn. This squad actually has fairly matching dials, so formation flying isn't a big thing - and the formation just has to be at R1 of Biggs, rather than a tight pinwheel, so not THAT limiting.

B) The PS level of everything in this list is either below or equal to his, making the chances of bumping minimal.

3) Already spoke about how Jess and Lowwrick want that R1 anyway.

4) This, I think, is the one weakness of the list. High PS arc dodgers who are good at outpredicting COULD rip this apart. Which brings us back to Acewing.

Frankly, this list is a marvel of synergy. Every piece works with each other to make sure that your damage is spread around in manageable chunks to all their ships, whereas their fire is maximized to eliminate the proper threats. It 'minds me of Armada's Biggs, where he moves the damage around so that his squadrons stay alive longer. Think of Biggs as having 3 hull and 8-10 shields - is that fair?

The strangest thing about this is that it isn't just a plug-and-I-win list. You'd have to be damned good to predict and win against arc dodgers. It requires skill to unlock its full potential, unlike Dengaroo or U-boats which pretty well flew themselves.

But that skill is there.

11 hours ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

With all that said, would a "once per round" nerf to Biggs even matter? Especially in this 1-2, large ship meta.

Imo, reinforce combined with Lowkicks ability is too strong. Evades for days. Thank god that thing cannot k-turn.

I think we should remove the astromech slot.

3 hours ago, Stilgod said:

You either didn't read or don't comprehend anything in MJ's post.

Didn't read MJs post. My comprehension is usually pretty good but I'm tired of reading about how OP, game bending and any other adjective you want to use when referring to Biggs.

From a defensive standpoint, Biggs is a mid level pilot in a two agility ship, with no EPT and three attack. Offensively you're dealing with, let's say a Lancer with a worse dial and no turret.

Out of the box, Biggs is 25% of your squad points, naked. Everything you do to enhance his survivability detracts from the effectiveness of the remaining squad, usually the two high PS aces.

As I said elsewhere, he's a PITA to deal with and you need to adjust your tactics to deal with the way he's kitted out.

10 hours ago, Hawkstrike said:

I prefer the term Rebel Jankyard. There's nothing fair about it.

I'm reading a lot about this list, but like any other list there's going to be builds that it won't handle as well. Someone's suggested Acewing, what else can we do to counter it? Let's be creative and productive rather than just whine about it

RoV

35 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

Didn't read MJs post. My comprehension is usually pretty good but I'm tired of reading about how OP, game bending and any other adjective you want to use when referring to Biggs.

From a defensive standpoint, Biggs is a mid level pilot in a two agility ship, with no EPT and three attack. Offensively you're dealing with, let's say a Lancer with a worse dial and no turret.

Out of the box, Biggs is 25% of your squad points, naked. Everything you do to enhance his survivability detracts from the effectiveness of the remaining squad, usually the two high PS aces.

As I said elsewhere, he's a PITA to deal with and you need to adjust your tactics to deal with the way he's kitted out.

And Biggs with 8-10 shields and a free Evade is..?

2 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

1) Lowwrick and Jess with DTF are the correct answer to this - spreading that single-hit damage around, forcing them to spend their secondary weapons with little to show for it. During that first turn, Rex targets your most threatening ship.

2) Jess is already on a R1 tether, and makes a great wingmate for Biggs because of that. Frankly smart thinking. Lowwrick, likewise. Formation flying has been around since the beginning of X-Wing, but mostly for Imperials.

A) Most Rebel ships don't have great dials to begin with, unless they would only benefit from Biggs for that first crucial turn. This squad actually has fairly matching dials, so formation flying isn't a big thing - and the formation just has to be at R1 of Biggs, rather than a tight pinwheel, so not THAT limiting.

B) The PS level of everything in this list is either below or equal to his, making the chances of bumping minimal.

3) Already spoke about how Jess and Lowwrick want that R1 anyway.

4) This, I think, is the one weakness of the list. High PS arc dodgers who are good at outpredicting COULD rip this apart. Which brings us back to Acewing.

Frankly, this list is a marvel of synergy. Every piece works with each other to make sure that your damage is spread around in manageable chunks to all their ships, whereas their fire is maximized to eliminate the proper threats. It 'minds me of Armada's Biggs, where he moves the damage around so that his squadrons stay alive longer. Think of Biggs as having 3 hull and 8-10 shields - is that fair?

The strangest thing about this is that it isn't just a plug-and-I-win list. You'd have to be damned good to predict and win against arc dodgers. It requires skill to unlock its full potential, unlike Dengaroo or U-boats which pretty well flew themselves.

But that skill is there.

I wish I could express myself better than I do at times. Maybe I still have anesthesia brain.

The Biggs, Jess, Lowrick is a great build. Synergy without dependence. The point I failed to make was anything you do to increase Biggs' survivability detracts from the efficiency of the remaing ships in the squad. If Biggs were omitted from the squad, are there better EPT's for Jess and Lowrick? Also, DTF's only work vs critical damage.

5 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I wish I could express myself better than I do at times. Maybe I still have anesthesia brain.

The Biggs, Jess, Lowrick is a great build. Synergy without dependence. The point I failed to make was anything you do to increase Biggs' survivability detracts from the efficiency of the remaing ships in the squad. If Biggs were omitted from the squad, are there better EPT's for Jess and Lowrick? Also, DTF's only work vs critical damage.

Jess's EPT is tied to the droid, so without Biggs, she'd probably run her normal M9-G8, which is 1 pt more expensive than the R2-D6+ DTF. Also, her having DTF means that Biggs's droid, R4-D6 is now a good bit better, as she can absorb the crits so R4-D6 can then minimize the hits down to two a turn. Lowrick runs Selflessness, and I'm not really sure what a better EPT would be for him, with how long he's been out.

40 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

I wish I could express myself better than I do at times. Maybe I still have anesthesia brain.

The Biggs, Jess, Lowrick is a great build. Synergy without dependence. The point I failed to make was anything you do to increase Biggs' survivability detracts from the efficiency of the remaing ships in the squad. If Biggs were omitted from the squad, are there better EPT's for Jess and Lowrick? Also, DTF's only work vs critical damage.

Jess has a free TL through her ability, and doesn't need an action to support Biggs, leaving her free to focus or boost. Lowwrick apparently carries Wookiee Commandos, which seems bad, but at 1 point getting some dice mods on a 180-arc ship is solid. Biggs himself can actually deal a fair bit of damage, and Rex is more about avoiding their damage anyway.

Or, to compare it to something else: This thing can outjoust a circa 2016 Triple Jumpmaster build before any cards were nerfed. It can suck down that first-turn damage like candy, with one destroyed/near dead JM5k and another crippled via Suppressive Fire, and Biggs is still alive.

Now, it has weaknesses. Isn't invincible. Isn't even easy to use, like Triple Jumps or Dengaroo or even Palpaces. But it requires outflying the other player near perfectly, always denying them shots, until you wear Biggs out from underneath them. That... seems very hard.

1 hour ago, iamfanboy said:

And Biggs with 8-10 shields and a free Evade is..?

Wouldn't it be like Biggs with four or five shileds? Sixteen to twenty points.

53 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

Jess has a free TL through her ability, and doesn't need an action to support Biggs, leaving her free to focus or boost. Lowwrick apparently carries Wookiee Commandos, which seems bad, but at 1 point getting some dice mods on a 180-arc ship is solid. Biggs himself can actually deal a fair bit of damage, and Rex is more about avoiding their damage anyway.

Or, to compare it to something else: This thing can outjoust a circa 2016 Triple Jumpmaster build before any cards were nerfed. It can suck down that first-turn damage like candy, with one destroyed/near dead JM5k and another crippled via Suppressive Fire, and Biggs is still alive.

Now, it has weaknesses. Isn't invincible. Isn't even easy to use, like Triple Jumps or Dengaroo or even Palpaces. But it requires outflying the other player near perfectly, always denying them shots, until you wear Biggs out from underneath them. That... seems very hard.

It's late, my brain is fried. I'll try reading this later in the day.

Why has no one posted the actual build?

Lowhhrick-

Selflessness

Wookie Commandos

Biggs-

IA

R4-D6

Jess-

R2-D6

IA

Rex-

3pts left over. Often that's Sabines Masterpiece with Jan Ors

23 minutes ago, charlesanakin said:

Why has no one posted the actual build?

Lowhhrick-Selflessness, Wookie Commandos

Biggs-IA, R4-D6

Jess-R2-D6, IA, Draw Their Fire

Rex-

3pts left over. Often that's Sabines Masterpiece with Jan Ors

Forgot DTF on Jess.

But man, it's amazing how OPEN those three points are. I'd actually kinda like BMST and Intelligence Agent on Rex; the list lives or dies based on prediction and knowing if to boost its main combat piece, Jess, would be helpful. But Jyn Erso? Maybe Vectored Thrusters on Lowhhrick? Or just leave it off for an initiative bid, secure in the knowledge that your build simply doesn't need anything else?

15 minutes ago, iamfanboy said:

Forgot DTF on Jess.

But man, it's amazing how OPEN those three points are. I'd actually kinda like BMST and Intelligence Agent on Rex; the list lives or dies based on prediction and knowing if to boost its main combat piece, Jess, would be helpful. But Jyn Erso? Maybe Vectored Thrusters on Lowhhrick? Or just leave it off for an initiative bid, secure in the knowledge that your build simply doesn't need anything else?

Did I?

7 hours ago, AlexW said:

Wait, you were giving me a hard time for saying your idea wouldn't work without knowing the list??? There are some minor/cheap upgrades that make a big difference, like how Jess pulls off any crits with DTF (or whichever ship has it), which makes it just that much to kill one ship outright because rolling crits makes it harder.

There are variations, which do amke a big difference. I haven't yet figured out exactly what the best option is. I'm trying to point out some logic, doesn't mean I think I'm always right and all knwoing.

5 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Didn't read MJs post. My comprehension is usually pretty good but I'm tired of reading about how OP, game bending and any other adjective you want to use when referring to Biggs.

From a defensive standpoint, Biggs is a mid level pilot in a two agility ship, with no EPT and three attack. Offensively you're dealing with, let's say a Lancer with a worse dial and no turret.

Out of the box, Biggs is 25% of your squad points, naked. Everything you do to enhance his survivability detracts from the effectiveness of the remaining squad, usually the two high PS aces.

As I said elsewhere, he's a PITA to deal with and you need to adjust your tactics to deal with the way he's kitted out.

I don't think of you or remember you as being dense or a negative experience. But let me say, anyone who ignores MJ's writing has now had at least one excruciatingly bad idea. Doesn't mean he's right always. Doesn't mean he's some sort of celebrity and you should out of importance. But you can look at what he says, and look at what you know. You might find it wise to consider certain things.

4 hours ago, iamfanboy said:

Forgot DTF on Jess.

But man, it's amazing how OPEN those three points are. I'd actually kinda like BMST and Intelligence Agent on Rex; the list lives or dies based on prediction and knowing if to boost its main combat piece, Jess, would be helpful. But Jyn Erso? Maybe Vectored Thrusters on Lowhhrick? Or just leave it off for an initiative bid, secure in the knowledge that your build simply doesn't need anything else?

My version (Rebel Jankyard 2.1):

Lowhhrick w/Selflessness, Rey, Tactician

Biggs w/R4-D6, IA

Rex

Jess w/R2-D6, DTF, IA

///

It evolves; I've been flying my Jankyard varieties all year:

1.0 (Kashyyyk): Biggs & Jess as above, Rex w/Sabine's Masterpiece & Jan Ors, Wes w/R2, Adaptability, IA (5-4, made day 2 cut).

1.5 (Worlds): Biggs & Jess as above, Rex w/Sabine's Masterpiece & BMST, Wes w/R3-A2, VI, IA (3-4, no cut).

2.0 (Wave 11 Release): Lowhhrick had Jan Ors instead of Rey; swapped to Rey to improve offense.

2.1 (Store Champs): As above, 7-0 for win.

10 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Didn't read MJs post. My comprehension is usually pretty good but I'm tired of reading about how OP, game bending and any other adjective you want to use when referring to Biggs.

From a defensive standpoint, Biggs is a mid level pilot in a two agility ship, with no EPT and three attack. Offensively you're dealing with, let's say a Lancer with a worse dial and no turret.

Out of the box, Biggs is 25% of your squad points, naked. Everything you do to enhance his survivability detracts from the effectiveness of the remaining squad, usually the two high PS aces.

As I said elsewhere, he's a PITA to deal with and you need to adjust your tactics to deal with the way he's kitted out.

Stop *********** and read. Nothing you are saying has any truth behind it. The new list completely changes Bigg's durability and drastically increases his value to a border-line gamebreaking. level

After posting this in the wrong thread....(why is this a seperate thread?)

If it gets too common you could start playing the Ship Deleter(Ghost with accuracy corrector and autoblaster turret). I would despise playing against you, but it would do work against this sort of thing.

8 minutes ago, codegnave said:

After posting this in the wrong thread....(why is this a seperate thread?) I'll explain.

If it gets too common you could start playing the Ship Deleter(Ghost with accuracy corrector and autoblaster turret). I would despise playing against you, but it would do work against this sort of thing. Interesting idea....

I saw @MajorJuggler's analysis of the jousting power of Fair-ship Rebels in another related thread and it really spoke to me in explaining why this crazy synergistic Rebel list was sucking the life out of the LGS room. I simply copied it, gave him credit, and wanted to see what the community thought about his analysis on the subject. Unbeknownst to me, @MajorJuggler was just about to give detailed explanation on his calculus on the jousting efficiencies of the new Rebel hotness which makes this thread have less teeth and honestly, if I knew he was going to post that amazing work, I wouldn't have. But alas, I did; and it's now little more than a shallow homage to his wonderful post.

Biggs with all the new Wookiee toys is incredibly obnoxious, and it's the natural progression from Pre-Wave11 builds that were pairing Biggs with Jess+DtF and Thane, with Jyn and Jan riding shotgun. Lowhrick being PS5 and in the Preview Article's suggestions both seem to indicate that FFG intended this sort of archetype to be possible.

It is the best Rebel Jousting list out there right now, no doubt. And most lists that joust with it head-on are toast. But this is nothing new, and for better or worse jousting has not been a part of the meta-game for many waves now. Many of the other current Top Lists currently have no need to joust (Dengar/Nym, Dengar/Fenn, Dash/Miranda, Dash/Nym, RAC-Kylo, Imp Vets, etc.). So, the way to beat Biggslow is the same old reliable tried and true way to beat any sort of Rebel Salad build from Waves 3-10: simply don't joust them and kill them with flanking attacks as you force them to draw through obstacle fields in order to get any kind of shots. Any of those other lists mentioned are more than capable of doing with the right amount of forethought and patience, and at the last two Store Champs I basically watched PS9 Dengars solo Biggslow lists all day (thanks to that generous dial and PS9 Barrel Roll).

Anyone thought of putting R2-D2 on Biggs? I haven't seen R4-D6 used much in the games I've viewed.

1 hour ago, clanofwolves said:

I saw @MajorJuggler's analysis of the jousting power of Fair-ship Rebels in another related thread and it really spoke to me in explaining why this crazy synergistic Rebel list was sucking the life out of the LGS room. I simply copied it, gave him credit, and wanted to see what the community thought about his analysis on the subject. Unbeknownst to me, @MajorJuggler was just about to give detailed explanation on his calculus on the jousting efficiencies of the new Rebel hotness which makes this thread have less teeth and honestly, if I knew he was going to post that amazing work, I wouldn't have. But alas, I did; and it's now little more than a shallow homage to his wonderful post.

Gotcha, sorry if i was accusing there, i just kinda spat that sentance out without thought lol