I've been watching in amazement of Fairship Rebel 1 and 2; or whatever the names are, I'm stealing from Carolina Kraytes in my terminology. In any event, it is amazingly efficient at not succumbing to mortal damage and is causing many opponents to plan strategies to "not play" and make the game about "final salvo." I don't know the specifics, but @MajorJuggler usually breaks things down logically and mathematically and he had this to say in another thread re the latest alleged FAQ leak, but this thread isn't about that or the validity thereof. Here's Major's analysis as I merely quote it and agree:

"Speaking of Biggs, the combination of Biggs' ability, Selflessness / Draw Their Fire, Lowhrick free evade, and Rex debuff has created a monster. Jess is a perfect fit to add as the DtF carrier with very solid jousting value. I wanted to actually be on the podcast to talk this point myself, but here’s the cliff notes anyway. This squad's ability to spread damage around fundamentally breaks the focus fire assumptions that apply to all other ships and squads, which gives it a huge advantage. [Warning: some sort-of-complex math to derive exactly how big that advantage is. We’re skipping that part here!] The individual pieces already have good jousting value, so spreading around incoming fire makes the squad worth around 115 - 120 points of total jousting value. The previous record holder was pre-nerf Parattanni at around 115 points, and we all know what that did to the game. To be fair, Parattanni has some other things going for it: PS9 arc dodger, stress control, and turret / auxiliary arc. But no squad should be worth well in excess of 100 points of jousting value unless it’s all shuttles with terrible dials. This new Biggs squad is so ruthlessly efficient that it's quantifiable power creep, and extraordinarily difficult for most lists to fight."

With all that said, would a "once per round" nerf to Biggs even matter? Especially in this 1-2, large ship meta.

Imo, reinforce combined with Lowkicks ability is too strong. Evades for days. Thank god that thing cannot k-turn.

37 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

With all that said, would a "once per round" nerf to Biggs even matter? Especially in this 1-2, large ship meta.

Imo, reinforce combined with Lowkicks ability is too strong. Evades for days. Thank god that thing cannot k-turn.

No, splitting fire is better for him. Which is why Rebel Junkyard 2.0 is so good.

4 minutes ago, Tbetts94 said:

No, splitting fire is better for him. Which is why Rebel Junkyard 2.0 is so good.

What is the 2.0 list?

I prefer the term Rebel Jankyard. There's nothing fair about it.

Ok, first a couple of admissions. One, I like rebels. I'm comfortable building squads of rebels. I'm comfortable flying those squads. Two, the only way you'll see me on a regional or world's table is if I trip over my own two feet and face plant.

With that out of the way let's get to Biggs. Reading these threads about Biggs is like listening to the stories told to little kids about the Boogeyman, Baba Yaga, Mike Myers or Jason. I feel you're psyching yourselves out and not up for matches against him. Yes, he's a meat shield for more "important" ships but he's an X-wing! He's a PS5, 2 or 3 agility, 5 or 6 hit point ship. Let's look at Baba Yaga.

Fueled and naked out of the hangar he's sitting at 25 points. That's 1/4 of your squad points. Unless you're going to fly Rebel Ties, Zeds or some A-wings you're looking at a 3 ship squad. Let's give him some survivability.

Hull or shield upgrades will adsorb an additional hit for 3 or 4 extra squad points but take up the Mod slot better used by IA for zero points. IMO the best Mech to keep Biggs alive in the face of missiles and torpedoes is R4-D6. It allows Biggs to swap uncancelled hits, above 3, for stress. Realistically it prevents him from succumbing to an Alpha Strike but he still takes two hits per turn if there are 3 or more hits getting through. Does nothing for crits.

There are other ways to enhance his survivability but he's probably never going to see the end game and he's still just a 6 health point X-wing.

40 minutes ago, Rinzler in a Tie said:

What is the 2.0 list?

Just refers to subbing in Stramm for Lowhrick. Krayts have caused the mess of screwing with the names so now there's like 5 different names for the same list. I prefer Fur Ship Rebels myself, but that hasn't caught on.

30 minutes ago, Hawkstrike said:

I prefer the term Rebel Jankyard. There's nothing fair about it.

That's the joke.

Okay. I'm going to be that guy to break the secret code of the secret society of Xwing.

WHY DON'T WE ALL JUST USE 2-3 ASSAULT MISSILES, ION TORPS, AND AREA OF EFFECT (AOE) BOMBS? yknow. Like bomblets. And seismics. And protons.

3 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Okay. I'm going to be that guy to break the secret code of the secret society of Xwing.

WHY DON'T WE ALL JUST USE 2-3 ASSAULT MISSILES, ION TORPS, AND AREA OF EFFECT (AOE) BOMBS? yknow. Like bomblets. And seismics. And protons.

Because when you don't run into this list, you are going to really regret bringing those missiles/torps.

56 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

There are other ways to enhance his survivability but he's probably never going to see the end game and he's still just a 6 health point X-wing.

This is the problem, @Stoneface, the list the thread is talking about seriously boosts the survivability of Biggs, splits damage, and keeps him around a lot longer than a 6 health point X-Wing should. You can't discuss Biggs in a vacuum like you were in your post and have it be meaningful to the conversation, because you are missing the other half of the equation.

58 minutes ago, Stoneface said:

There are other ways to enhance his survivability but he's probably never going to see the end game and he's still just a 6 health point X-wing.

With this list, it's more like an X-Wing with two extra hull and six extra shields, plus a free evade each round. And also one attack is at -1 die. When Biggs has fourteen hit points to draw from, he becomes an issue. Yes, you can kill him; but you're still taking shots while you try. It's pretty tough to outlast that.

13 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

Because when you don't run into this list, you are going to really regret bringing those missiles/torps.

... Guidance chips and LRS **** are still a thing nowadays you know.

Ever been on the receiving end of a 5 dice Assault missile with with Miranda? With your choice of chips or F. ****, put it on Lt. Blount. **** stick ion Torps on a jumpmaster (trololol).

And aoe bombs are sitll a thing. And Ruthlessness.

2 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

... Guidance chips and LRS **** are still a thing nowadays you know.

Ever been on the receiving end of a 5 dice Assault missile with with Miranda? With your choice of chips or F. ****, put it on Lt. Blount. **** stick ion Torps on a jumpmaster (trololol).

And aoe bombs are sitll a thing. And Ruthlessness.

What are you putting them on? What endgame do those ships have? Can they deal damage without those missiles? I've been looking at these options and it comes down to these issues. I can build a list that will tear up Biggs with Ruthlessness and Assault Missiles but can't come up with a list that balances those out. If I try to make a list that is good against both the Biggs list and other aces, it suffers to both.

I also continually see people mistakenly think missiles/ordnance get around Biggs and can kill a ship in the squad. However, if you actually start to look at numbers and what your opponent can do between Low/Biggs/Rex/Jess you really need a high investment to kill any of them (except Rex but even that is a poor payoff). In the end, you're often left with a near destroyed ship and then you have to go kill Biggs.

10 minutes ago, AlexW said:

What are you putting them on? What endgame do those ships have? Can they deal damage without those missiles? I've been looking at these options and it comes down to these issues. I can build a list that will tear up Biggs with Ruthlessness and Assault Missiles but can't come up with a list that balances those out. If I try to make a list that is good against both the Biggs list and other aces, it suffers to both.

I also continually see people mistakenly think missiles/ordnance get around Biggs and can kill a ship in the squad. However, if you actually start to look at numbers and what your opponent can do between Low/Biggs/Rex/Jess you really need a high investment to kill any of them (except Rex but even that is a poor payoff). In the end, you're often left with a near destroyed ship and then you have to go kill Biggs.

I didn;t realize miranda with TLT was so useless post 5 dice Assault missiles.

12 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I didn;t realize miranda with TLT was so useless post 5 dice Assault missiles.

While the splash damage is a great benefit, that 5 dice AM is doing 3 damage to the Target if you're lucky. Sure, TLT and Miranda can dance around, what are your other options?

Also note I didn't say useless, I said high investment, and I'd consider a 40-50 Miranda a high investment.

13 minutes ago, AlexW said:

While the splash damage is a great benefit, that 5 dice AM is doing 3 damage to the Target if you're lucky. Sure, TLT and Miranda can dance around, what are your other options?

Also note I didn't say useless, I said high investment, and I'd consider a 40-50 Miranda a high investment.

I it brings you to the drop of one ship much faster by laying 1 damage across 4 targets...

Heck, bring two. Put one on Nym.

4 hours ago, kris40k said:

This is the problem, @Stoneface, the list the thread is talking about seriously boosts the survivability of Biggs, splits damage, and keeps him around a lot longer than a 6 health point X-Wing should. You can't discuss Biggs in a vacuum like you were in your post and have it be meaningful to the conversation, because you are missing the other half of the equation.

True but I got tired typing with one finger on the Kindle.

Biggs has been complained about since day 1. Even after the nerf it didn't stop and as you have mentioned, it is getting worse. But we never hear about the drawbacks of using Biggs in your squadron make-up.

1) Post nerf you don't have to select a weapon that can target Biggs. If you have a secondary weapon that utilises a target lock, Biggs becomes a non-entity.

2) For Biggs to work, he's on a range one tether to the ship or ships he's protecting. That means:

A) The ships' he's escorting are basically tied to his dial. Their maneuvers are fairly limited.

B) His PS level means he will usually be bumping, limiting actions, unless he's placed to one side of the formation. Being in the center or back of the squad works in a head to head joust that will usually give him the R3 green die bonus. If you're controlling the approach you limit his effectiveness.

3) If the other ships in the squad are used to bolster Biggs' ability then they are not being kitted out to take maximum advantage of their abilities. This is in your favor.

4) Control the approach. A little Sun Tzu is helpful here. You can limit his effectiveness by choosing the time and place of the engagement.

Biggs comes in one of four basic flavors. Agile (R2-F2), Regen (R2-D2 or R5-P9), Deflector with DTF on another ship or the Hit Sink (R4-D6). Of the four, the combination of the Hit Sink and Deflector is probably the worst to face because DTF prevents some crits from getting through.

What I'm trying to get across and not very well is you have more decisions to make when facing Biggs. When and how fast are just two of them. The when is early or late in the match. How fast is a nickel and dime approach or swamp his X-wing butt under an Alpha Strike. The answers will depend on the Biggs build, squad makeup, play style, opening positions, etc..

Yes, Biggs is a royal PITA. Under the right circumstances he can adsorb a ton of damage and keep a pivotal ship alive much longer than is good. But there are trade off s to having him in the squad. I really think his presence gets blown out proportion

At least Rebel formation flying ships are some of the easiest to out-play (outside the inclusion of Pattern Analyzer Jess), allowing mobile lists to make that "120% efficiency" not as noticeable.

Honestly, prior to Lowhhrick + Selflessness, Biggs based lists had a rough time because of Arc Dodgers or Palp, even with R3A2 versions. I think it took a lot more skill and luck for Biggs lists to beat the high mobility lists. Might be now it is closer 50/50.

The "meta" recently has been moving away from mobility and "positional skill" lists, more towards efficiency. Likely to cow certain efficient ships with 6 or so upgrade slots, hard to beat dials, big bases, and barrel roll (the JM5K haha).

Maybe a reason to play Imperial Arc dodgers again? More reason to play Miri + Nym? Clever ploy by FFG? The answer that all the Imperial Whiners have been asking for since World's 2017? I'd like to think so

Patt An, or Primed Thrusters?????

****. i know its around, but what is the exact list?

34 minutes ago, phild0 said:

...the answer that all the Imperial Whiners have been asking for since World's 2017? I'd like to think so

Easy man.....but bombs?!?

The best way to describe flying against it is your not going against 4 ships. Its one big ship with 8 shields, 15 hull, 1 Integrated astro and 4 attacks. It's like a Super Kanan Ghost with agility. Best way to beat it is roll nothing but crits or peck it with a lot of 1 and 2 hits.

6 hours ago, Stoneface said:

Ok, first a couple of admissions. One, I like rebels. I'm comfortable building squads of rebels. I'm comfortable flying those squads. Two, the only way you'll see me on a regional or world's table is if I trip over my own two feet and face plant.

With that out of the way let's get to Biggs. Reading these threads about Biggs is like listening to the stories told to little kids about the Boogeyman, Baba Yaga, Mike Myers or Jason. I feel you're psyching yourselves out and not up for matches against him. Yes, he's a meat shield for more "important" ships but he's an X-wing! He's a PS5, 2 or 3 agility, 5 or 6 hit point ship. Let's look at Baba Yaga.

Fueled and naked out of the hangar he's sitting at 25 points. That's 1/4 of your squad points. Unless you're going to fly Rebel Ties, Zeds or some A-wings you're looking at a 3 ship squad. Let's give him some survivability.

Hull or shield upgrades will adsorb an additional hit for 3 or 4 extra squad points but take up the Mod slot better used by IA for zero points. IMO the best Mech to keep Biggs alive in the face of missiles and torpedoes is R4-D6. It allows Biggs to swap uncancelled hits, above 3, for stress. Realistically it prevents him from succumbing to an Alpha Strike but he still takes two hits per turn if there are 3 or more hits getting through. Does nothing for crits.

There are other ways to enhance his survivability but he's probably never going to see the end game and he's still just a 6 health point X-wing.

You either didn't read or don't comprehend anything in MJ's post.

1 hour ago, Blail Blerg said:

****. i know its around, but what is the exact list?

Biggs.

Lowhhrick

Jess

Rex

With some swapping around of upgrades.