This is a topic on morals and ethics in gaming in competition.

As regionals draws closer, I feel excited to take this next big step into the competitive side of Armada and gaming. However, a question lingers in my mind while reading the tournament regulations. It is stated that if a player is to concede a match, if the other player has not scored past a certain MOV, then the winner receives an MoV of 143, and a Tournament score of 8. The question for me is : what if you are tabling an opponent, and they concede to deny you those 2 points? For my store champs, the tournament points were dead close, it came down to MoV to determine the champ. I tabled my first opponent, but he was a very good sport about it, and played through the entire thing, up to his final bombing runs on my ships when all of his were eliminated. If he had looked at the board and said "Nope, I'm done" I would have sunk down to 4th place because of those denied points. What's to stop a salty opponent from doing such a thing at regionals?

Two things:

The first is Unsportsmanlike Conduct.

Quote

Unsporting Conduct

Players are expected to behave in a mature and considerate manner and to play within the rules and not abuse them. This prohibits intentionally stalling a game for time, placing components with excessive force, inappropriate behavior, treating an opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect, cheating, etc. Collusion among players to manipulate scoring is expressly forbidden.

Denying your opponent points that they would obviously earn would be treating your opponent with a lack of courtesy or respect. Plus it could be argued that doing so is collusion to manipulate scoring, giving someone else a chance to overtake their opponent.

The second is End of Round:

Quote

Concession : A player voluntarily concedes defeat at any point during the game. All of that player’s ships and squadrons are destroyed. The conceding player receives a loss worth 0 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 0. If his or her opponent has a Margin of Victory of 140 points or more, the opponent receives tournament points and a Margin of Victory as outlined in “Tournament Points” on page 17. Otherwise, the opponent receives 8 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 140.

Note the bold section. That means if you start a game with your opponent and they immediately concede, the MOV is 400 points (all their destroyed ships) to 0 (all your destroyed ships) so you would get a 10 point win and 400 MOV. So if your opponent sees you getting ready to bear down on their flagship and goes "Oh gods I'm screwed!" their flagship is still destroyed. The only way their concession hurts you is if you could have farmed them for victory tokens or something.

3 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

"Oh gods I'm screwed!" their flagship is still destroyed. The only way their concession hurts you is if you could have farmed them for victory tokens or something.

Thank you, that does put my mind to ease a bit. The intentional draw collusion in X-wing had me worried, so I was just making sure there wasn't something similar for Armada.

33 minutes ago, gothound said:

Thank you, that does put my mind to ease a bit. The intentional draw collusion in X-wing had me worried, so I was just making sure there wasn't something similar for Armada.

Nope. A big part of the ID and Collusion in X-Wing is that X-Wing weighs Win/Loss as the primary factor - so its a simply number to manipulate.

With tournament points being on the line with Armada, its not so much . I mean, it can (and I've seen it) be done, but its no where near as easy to do... Generally speaking, its a robust system.

Speaking to its flaws, you never really shake out "who was the best of all time overall" until you play more rounds than the average Armada tournament entails, but it still gives a show of who overall played stronger , if not won all the time...

56 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

Note the bold section. That means if you start a game with your opponent and they immediately concede, the MOV is 400 points (all their destroyed ships) to 0 (all your destroyed ships) so you would get a 10 point win and 400 MOV. So if your opponent sees you getting ready to bear down on their flagship and goes "Oh gods I'm screwed!" their flagship is still destroyed. The only way their concession hurts you is if you could have farmed them for victory tokens or something.

Thank you so much for pointing this out. I know a number of extremely experienced players who have been confused by this. In fact, it happened in the first round of the store championship this past weekend. The score was 200-112 at the point of the concession which when put into the computer kicked back the 8/140MOV, but under what you've written here, it should have been 400-112, or a 288MOV and a 9 point win. That's very good to know! Thanks!

1 hour ago, BiggsIRL said:

The second is End of Round:

Note the bold section.

Sooo... Said bolded part is not in v2.1 or v2.2 as far as I can see, which is the version currently posted here . Where did you paste this from?

Yes it is. Page 16 in v2.2....

But only in the Text Version.

There's two conflicting statements in the one document:

(FROM THE TEXT ONLY VERSION)

Under END OF ROUND on Page 16

• Concession: A player voluntarily concedes defeat at any point during the game. All of that player’s ships and squadrons are destroyed. The conceding player receives a loss worth 0 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 0. If his or her opponent has a Margin of Victory of 140 points or more, the opponent receives tournament points and a Margin of Victory as outlined in “Tournament Points” on page 17. Otherwise, the opponent receives 8 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 140.

Under CALCULATING SCORE on Page 17{

If a player concedes the game, that player receives 0 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 0. If his or her opponent has a Margin of Victory of 140 points or more, the opponent receives tournament points and a Margin of Victory as outlined in “Tournament Points” on page 17. Otherwise, his or her opponent receives 8 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 140.

----

Whereas, in the Graphical version, there is no Conflict:

END OF ROUND (Page 8)

• Concession: A player voluntarily concedes defeat at any point during the game. The conceding player receives a loss worth 0 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 0. If his or her opponent has a Margin of Victory of 140 points or more, the opponent receives tournament points and a Margin of Victory as outlined in “Tournament Points” on page 9. Otherwise, the opponent receives 8 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 140.

CALCULATING SCORE (Page 9)

If a player concedes the game, that player receives 0 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 0. If his or her opponent has a Margin of Victory of 140 points or more, the opponent receives tournament points and a Margin of Victory as outlined in “Tournament Points” on page 9. Otherwise, his or her opponent receives 8 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 140

Just now, Drasnighta said:

There's two conflicting statements in the one document:

Under END OF ROUND on Page 16

• Concession: A player voluntarily concedes defeat at any point during the game. All of that player’s ships and squadrons are destroyed. The conceding player receives a loss worth 0 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 0. If his or her opponent has a Margin of Victory of 140 points or more, the opponent receives tournament points and a Margin of Victory as outlined in “Tournament Points” on page 17. Otherwise, the opponent receives 8 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 140.

Under CALCULATING SCORE on Page 17{

If a player concedes the game, that player receives 0 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 0. If his or her opponent has a Margin of Victory of 140 points or more, the opponent receives tournament points and a Margin of Victory as outlined in “Tournament Points” on page 17. Otherwise, his or her opponent receives 8 tournament points and a Margin of Victory of 140.

Nothing specifically contradictory about that, as the End of the Round would have already occurred before Calculating Scores... but the plot thickens.

FTR - Reported to Rules Questions. Just in case.

Just now, BiggsIRL said:

Nothing specifically contradictory about that, as the End of the Round would have already occurred before Calculating Scores... but the plot thickens.

But it is different from Document to Document...

Just now, Drasnighta said:

But it is different from Document to Document...

Correct. I've only ever opened the TEXT document since they've provided them, because why bother opening the one that inherently sucks at loading?

I know which one I think should be true. I mean, why wouldn't you automatically destroy all your opponents ships if they concede?

Just now, BiggsIRL said:

Correct. I've only ever opened the TEXT document since they've provided them, because why bother opening the one that inherently sucks at loading?

Honestly. Guilty of the Same. So I wasn't aware of this until now.

Better believe I'm not making that mistake again.

Looking WAAAAAAAAY BACK to the Text only versions 1.1 and 1.2, and they definitely had the same wording. I wonder if someone has an old 1.1 of the non-text version.

I don't now. I only archive 1 edition back

Well...

It is written. In the official document. RAW.

Also concessions are stupid and getting 1 point is always better than getting 0.

I'm confused. So if I concede, obviously I get nothing. If my opponent concedes, is this saying that I get a minimum of 8-3/140, and above that if the 400-(conceded player's score) is higher/better for me?

You get a minimum of 8 tournament points and 140 MOV. If you want to use the normal shorthand, it would technically be an 8-0.

Other than that, correct. You get at least 8 / 140. Possibly more!

9 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Nope. A big part of the ID and Collusion in X-Wing is that X-Wing weighs Win/Loss as the primary factor - so its a simply number to manipulate.

With tournament points being on the line with Armada, its not so much . I mean, it can (and I've seen it) be done, but its no where near as easy to do... Generally speaking, its a robust system.

Its easier to manufacture results in Armada more then X Wing.

X wing has 4 to 6 rounds and a cut. If you "lose" a game to a friend they could make the cut.

In Armada there is 3 rounds. If you "lose" a game to a friend. The chances of of them wining tje tournament are very high. That friend dosent even need to win all there games.

I would not call that a robust system

2 minutes ago, X Wing Nut said:

Its easier to manufacture results in Armada more then X Wing.

X wing has 4 to 6 rounds and a cut. If you "lose" a game to a friend they could make the cut.

In Armada there is 3 rounds. If you "lose" a game to a friend. The chances of of them wining tje tournament are very high. That friend dosent even need to win all there games.

I would not call that a robust system

The flipside is, because games are longer and more involved - its more difficult to easily 'manufacture' a result.

EDIT:

I guess my point is, it so far seems a robust system, because we have not yet seen such a systemic level of "cheating".

Not to say we won't at some stage. But so far, its been fairly clean... Which I think for all of its failures, is still a positive.

9 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

The flipside is, because games are longer and more involved - its more difficult to easily 'manufacture' a result.

Opp i set the wrong command.

Why did i fly straghit into you bombers

I never should have picked that objective

Screw it im charging I'm in it cant get any worse for me

I forgot i had that card

Why did i move that ship first

I forgot you had that card

I know im at speed 3 but i wont go off the board edge

... And yet, you don't see a whole bunch of people all declaring and doing it at the same time to secure their positions in a cut and shut out others...

In Short:

Its not perfect.

But its the system we've got, and for the most part , it seems to be fairly robust , and works.

25 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

In Short:

Its not perfect.

But its the system we've got, and for the most part , it seems to be fairly robust , and works.

The Tournament scoring works if your not a completive players and don't want to be completive. If it was Completive 3 players who win 3 games would not lose to a player who lost 1. But I guess we will just have to agree to disagree.