There was a time where I felt one of the most important upgrades you could put on a ship of any size was Electronic Countermeasures. Huge attacks were being worked out where a single accuracy could completely ruin your day. The huge attacks haven't necessarily gone anywhere, but the current hotness (or so it seems) is all about stripping away your opponent's defense tokens, not using accuracy to lock them down. With that in mind, I just wanted to hear some opinions on the use of this (in my opinion) once ubiquitous upgrade. Are you still finding it worth 7 points and that Defensive Retrofit slot? I know they do drastically different things, but does the reduced cost and non-reliance on defense tokens lead to Reinforced Blast Doors making a move on the most popular Defensive Retrofit? I don't necessarily have an opinion yet, I'm still only 4 games into Wave 6, but it's something I'm starting to lean toward in my head.

I think people have started taking RBD on their smaller ships because the damage saved from ECM is about the same healed from RBD. I'm using ECMs on AF and Vic II because they are in that weird range where an above average roll can cripple them, but RBD doesn't have enough value once they lose shields.

I think ECM is a staple on MC80s. RBD and Motti are still a thing on ISDs, so I think it's a toss up.

I will say I much prefer ECM over RBD. On small ships, I won't run any defense upgrades.

Entirely Meta Dependant.

Hothgary had a period of time last wave where ECMs were basically on the way out... The Smaller Ships were prevailing, and bomber attacks were in kind... So Advanced Projectors, RBDs and even Redundant Shields had a resurgence, chassis depending.

I've stopped taking ECM recently, my goto on large ships, because of the Sloaning, but there have been a few games I've missed it. I greatly prefer it to rbd

It's hard to tell the kind of meta my group has because there's only a few of us plus a few new players. though for a awhile ECM was an auto include especially for flagships. We have maybe 4 players a week usually the same people but new lists every week.

My decision comes down to:

If I use Motti: RBD

any other commander: ECM

...and I am with @Undeadguy , no defensive upgrades on small ships.

The current state of my ECMs is "readied." That will surely change during the first round of shooting.

In all seriousness - meta dependent. My local meta has always been a big ship friendly meta, so ECMs are still super common. If the meta was more oriented towards small ships, I would imagine we would have pushed more RBD

The top 3 fleets at most tournamenta around me are mc30 spam, followed by the demolisher fleets. ECM are essential for not getting caught with your pants down by a 8dmg + acc shot from an h9 mc30.

All the avenger isds hate ecm too, as long as you can keep that golden brace green

Yeah with too many advantages spamming small ships with stellar (TRC, APT) upgrades and massed fighter attacks, there's little need to brace against a massive turbolaser volley like in the days of Ackbar. You might need it still for that Demo/Admo rush, but B-Wing swarms or Avenger boarding you to turn off all of your defense tokens make ECMs a bit useless.

But if the day comes again where massive batteries are regularly a thing, they'll make a comeback.

ISDs want one of two things: Electronic Countermeasures or Reinforced Blast Doors. If you are expecting to deal with BIG DAMAGE you want ECM, as it will save you 3+ damage on a single attack at least once, possibly more. If you are expecting multiple small hits, you want Reinforced Blast Doors, which will help you tank the damage.

Assault Frigates and MC80C's want one of two things: Electronic Countermeasures or Advanced Projectors. Again, if you expect big damage (with accuracy results) you want ECM as it will save you 3+ damage. If you expect multiple small attacks, or non-accuracy results (Demolisher), then Advanced Projectors will let you make the most out of your massive shield wall, but if XI7s are around, big damage + accuracy will eat you alive.

MC80A's get to do both ECM / Advanced Projector. Hahaha. Hahahahahahahahahaha. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

MC80A's are my favorite ship, and I have been loving ECM plus RBD.

2 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

Entirely Meta Dependant.

This is the key to understanding all the defensive retrofits.

Each of them has a specific meta situation in which it thrives. If that situation does not happen on the board in your game at all, then it is likely to be sunk points.

ECM is tech against large shots that have a reasonable chance of producing an accuracy, such as your Home One, Liberty, ISD, and possibly in the present meta VSD-II. Since it primarily protects the brace, it is also partly countered by Intel Officers discarding that brace, and partly synergizes with Walex as a kind of response to that discard. On a ship like the Assault Frigate that has one of 3 very good tokens, ECM is extremely useful to free up the right defensive upgrade as needed. I've seen red range shots where unlocking the evade made sense.

3 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

I think people have started taking RBD on their smaller ships because the damage saved from ECM is about the same healed from RBD. I'm using ECMs on AF and Vic II because they are in that weird range where an above average roll can cripple them, but RBD doesn't have enough value once they lose shields.

I think ECM is a staple on MC80s. RBD and Motti are still a thing on ISDs, so I think it's a toss up.

I will say I much prefer ECM over RBD. On small ships, I won't run any defense upgrades.

I'd say advanced projectors on MC30 are pretty decent, but nowhere near mandatory.

my meta has a lot of APTs, so damage control officer can really come in handy

1 hour ago, Tiberius the Killer said:

MC80A's are my favorite ship, and I have been loving ECM plus RBD.

Try it with Advanced Projectors. Laugh as RBDs will never even need to be considered.

guys guys, redundant shield is where it's at.

But not cluster bombs, cause never go full retard

You know... Major Derlin and Redundant Shields would probably be fun to play with together.

Just now, BiggsIRL said:

You know... Major Derlin and Redundant Shields would probably be fun to play with together.

so many points though... and IMO RS being a mod and costing 8 points should have an effect similar to that combo already.

2 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

You know... Major Derlin and Redundant Shields would probably be fun to play with together.

I've thought about it. I played a game Monday with Major Derlin on both sides of the game. The damage reduction really makes a difference on a significant number of shots because it changes how you can distribute that damage with tokens, sometimes to the point of simply not spending a token. Likewise, that RS is going to add up significantly, too.

I basically look at it as you need about 3 turns of Derlin or RS before they really start repaying their cast. Two rounds and you're still in the negative on the quality of points spent. 3 rounds for either upgrade and you're in the plus relative to other upgrades that you could have put on the ship. And certainly a 4th or 5th round and you're golden. There's a lot of good there.

And in fact, Cluster Bombs may have more of an effect in the current meta. If we're seeing a lot of 3 hull Scatter Aces because of Sloan, all of which specifically want to attack ships, then 5 points for an outright kill is pretty good. I often leave my defensive retrofit unfilled on MC30s, so that's a good candidate. CR90s might be a good candidate as well, since often people want to attack them; squads can take them down pretty easily. One might see a use on the Arquitens for the Imperials.

I've at least thought about them on the MC30 in my Madine list. The key to making CB work is you cannot rely on it alone, which is what a lot of people try to do. Instead, you want to be able to drop 3 damage (average) on a key squadron, and then have the squads and/or AS that can finish it off. One of the keys to the squadron game is you have to pull volume off the table quickly, and the early removal of a key squadron can easily snowball into a victorious squadron game for your side.

28 minutes ago, BiggsIRL said:

Try it with Advanced Projectors. Laugh as RBDs will never even need to be considered.

I am still scared of XI7s. But they have never actually been used against me, so I probably shouldn't be. I am also a little scared of BT avengers, where a MC80 may be on it's last legs after one shot and need some serious damage recovery. But that also has yet to happen to me.

I will try AP next game though!

41 minutes ago, Tiberius the Killer said:

I am still scared of XI7s. But they have never actually been used against me, so I probably shouldn't be. I am also a little scared of BT avengers, where a MC80 may be on it's last legs after one shot and need some serious damage recovery. But that also has yet to happen to me.

I will try AP next game though!

Even if you are on your last legs against BT Avenger, guess what it probably doesn't have? Did you guess XI7s?

1 hour ago, Xeletor said:

But not cluster bombs, cause never go full retard

^bump. inb4 the apologists tell us pre-Wave6 AA upgrades were good.

In the days of the Rieekan Squadron Crisis, things were so bad you took AP on everything. And it worked 90% of the time.

15 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

^bump. inb4 the apologists tell us pre-Wave6 AA upgrades were good.