Some people are expecting the scorpion to be a dishonor deck, something about forcing the opponent to discard deck's cards..

Looking at the few scorpion spoilers we have:

City of Lies: control

Young rumormonger: control

Bayushi manipulator: control. Bid high = give honor

I can swin: control. This card is great, and if your bid is higher you are also giving honor

Blackmail: control. Needs being less honorable.

The Phoenix deck was a very good surprise, I've imagined a (boring) Control/defensive/honor victory deck bidding low. They came being a control/offensive deck that can bid high and dominate the rings, so they don't loose for dishonor.

The Crabs also can't dishonor you enought yet.

For now it's all about breaking provinces, probably for scorpion too, with a hand full of tricks of course.

We have to divide it up into 2 categories. There is dishonoring characters and honor loss to the player. The Scorpion will certainly have ways to dishonor characters - but with honor cards like Levy being how they are, I don't expect any strong honor loss cards and they will all present choices or have stiff conditions rather than direct honor loss. There will likely be a way to manipulate the choice by board state such as with Levy you can force them to give you honor if they have no fate (if you wanted the honor lol.)

For direct dishonor anything more than 1 point in a card would be too strong based on the current cards, but it could exist. I don't expect them to have a strong dishonor victory out the gate, but like Crab they have the makings of it - and perhaps with Scorp + Crab it can happen more reliably. More I expect they can target higher glory cards with dishonor to negate their presents on the field to achieve a more traditional victory. I suspect they will have balanced stats with a slight weight to POL, but not by much. I think Shoju will be a 4/5/2 and the clan will be similar.

The biggest thing I'm puzzled by is Bayushi Manipulator... Increasing your bid by 1 can be great, but is this just to allow you to bid 6 in a duel or draw? Or is there more to this? I suspect there may be a card which will allow you to trade bids with your opponent, or ignore / reverse the honor trade from bidding. On its own it has some value if you really need to dig deep... but I don't often see reasons why I would want to draw 6... The risk of bidding that high, even after seeing your opponent's bid is that you must give them an honor for it which would work against any type of honor loss advantage, let alone seal an honor loss victory... If there were an action card that said "Reaction: when you bid higher than your opponent - dishonor a character you control, you do not give your opponent any honor." Shoju's first ability in the ol5r game was to trade hands with your opponent, his may be "Reaction: after bids are revealed - trade bids with your opponent" idk I'm expecting we have something like this coming to making increasing the bid more than just bidding 6 or reactively bidding higher.

idk - I could be wrong and this is just a card to help you reactively bid so that you don't risk much honor but can still draw heavier based on your opponents bid. I expect the Scorpion will not gain much honor through the game since Blackmail requires you to have lower honor than your opponent so they'll want to draw cards where they can... but I'm hoping for something more.

I am not convinced that scorpion is going to be a dishonor clan in this game, and will be more of a "sneaky tricks" clan. The few cards we have seen seem to point to more powerful, but more expensive, conflict cards than the average clan.

Also, some of the aside comments in the L5R Live videos strongly lean in this direction. Especially the crane and dragon videos where comments are made about these clans having most of their powerful effects on the board so they won't surprise you much, "That's a different clan. ::hard wink::"

I hope to see a couple of scorpion cards that play into the dishonor theme. I don't think that dishonor will be a pure victory condition though. Right now I see it more as a way to put pressure on an opponent, hurt their high glory characters, and then if the game happens to play out that way - a push for winning through dishonor. So at the end of the day like OP said, you've got to be able to crack provinces, and dishonor is your side dish, rather than the main course.

2 hours ago, Yogo Gohei said:

I am not convinced that scorpion is going to be a dishonor clan in this game, and will be more of a "sneaky tricks" clan. The few cards we have seen seem to point to more powerful, but more expensive, conflict cards than the average clan.

Also, some of the aside comments in the L5R Live videos strongly lean in this direction. Especially the crane and dragon videos where comments are made about these clans having most of their powerful effects on the board so they won't surprise you much, "That's a different clan. ::hard wink::"

I think Scorpion might be more about leveraging dishonored people and being at lower honor than your opponent, rather than about dishonoring your opponent. There will be a big advantage of "When you are at low honor, you gain some benefit", and possibly some anti-dishonor stuff (Maybe a card that is Action : If you are at less than 5 honor, gain 2 honor) Similar to how crane is about leveraging using honorable people, rather than actually trying to gain honor. The result of both is that opponent loses/you gain honor as your characters leave play, but it doesn't mean that pushing these conditions will be the active win condition. Even out of Crab, where people are building active dishonor decks, half of the time, those decks seem to be winning via provinces anyway.

At least in the core set.

Is it hard for other people not to say "Win via military" when referring to breaking provinces?

This is just the core release. I expect honor and dishonor win conditions to be got from more focused and combo-ish decks, which should happen only after the card pool increases. Right now each clan is a mix of different tactics and strengths and you don't have much room to pick from.

For now, most (if not all) competitive decks will have to win via destroying provinces.

Just give it time.

While you might be right, I'll admit that I really like the approach to honor/dishonor FFG has taken with the core set, and I hope they extend it more. Honor and dishonor seem to be unusual win conditions, but as you get close to either, your opponent has to make a lot of sub-optimal choices, which in turn contribute to you taking provinces. They seem much more of a threat, and something your opponent can prevent, but at a real price. It keeps the game very interactive (again, all this based on the way things seem at the moment...) and looking like a lot of fun.

I'm very optimistic that they can keep this going, and I hope we don't see the return of 'sit back and honor out.' The honor/dishonor victory itself might well stay rare, but that threat seems to have a very large impact on play. I'm enjoying that immensely so far.

Another thing to consider is the nature of hidden information in the game. The Scorpion Clan is the Clan of Secrets, and it is said that there is no secret in the land of Rokugan that is is unknown to a Scorpion somewhere. With the variable card draw and the facedown nature of the provinces and unrevealed cards occupying them, there is sufficient room to speculate on a "sneak peek" subtheme within the clan. In the CCG, this was part of the Scorpion's Ninja Shinobi archetype for a time.

I would bet money that Way of the Scorpion is an inverse Way of the Crane

Personally, expecting scorpion not to have any direct (even if it was tied to a choice) honorloss cards for the opponent is highly unreasonable, what with crab has received so far and the fact that they are not 'the' dishonor clan. Lets not forget that direct honor hits aren't the only way to use the dishonor engine. A solid discard based theme can work pretty well as a dishonor theme without actually hitting your opponent's honor value. It would be flavorful as well since it highlights the choice of stooping down to dishonorable tactics to try and keep up, or hold unto your honor as you lay dying. And if there was ever a deck theme I liked close to playing dishonor, it's playing the discard theme.

A couple non-uniques that could potentially take/make your opponent lose honor, one direct honor hit event that works when you're lower in honor (2 perhaps, but 1 isn't that bad plus a card), a character that hits the opponent's honor (or makes him discard a card) when killed/targeted (probably a 2 drop), a unique that makes an opponent discard a card directly (and look at his hand) and you're all set. Couple that with spies at court, levy (or watch commander depending on how heavy your discard theme is), a solid focus on the earth ring and air(?), and generally bidding low with focus on card draw mechanics to supplement your hand and your deck is done. City of lies is no match to Imperial Storehouse for this reason (well, aside from City of lies being bad in general).

Or maybe it's all just wishful thinking and we'll just get a bunch of ninjas!

37 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

Personally, expecting scorpion not to have any direct (even if it was tied to a choice) honorloss cards for the opponent is highly unreasonable, what with crab has received so far and the fact that they are not 'the' dishonor clan. Lets not forget that direct honor hits aren't the only way to use the dishonor engine. A solid discard based theme can work pretty well as a dishonor theme without actually hitting your opponent's honor value. It would be flavorful as well since it highlights the choice of stooping down to dishonorable tactics to try and keep up, or hold unto your honor as you lay dying. And if there was ever a deck theme I liked close to playing dishonor, it's playing the discard theme.

A couple non-uniques that could potentially take/make your opponent lose honor, one direct honor hit event that works when you're lower in honor (2 perhaps, but 1 isn't that bad plus a card), a character that hits the opponent's honor (or makes him discard a card) when killed/targeted (probably a 2 drop), a unique that makes an opponent discard a card directly (and look at his hand) and you're all set. Couple that with spies at court, levy (or watch commander depending on how heavy your discard theme is), a solid focus on the earth ring and air(?), and generally bidding low with focus on card draw mechanics to supplement your hand and your deck is done. City of lies is no match to Imperial Storehouse for this reason (well, aside from City of lies being bad in general).

Or maybe it's all just wishful thinking and we'll just get a bunch of ninjas!

My problem with the dishonor route is that the theme seems to pull at two opposite directions. On the one hand, cards like Blackmail or I can Swim* require you to be dishonorable (have a higher bid than your opponent) which typically results in you losing honor and giving it to the opponent. On the other hand, the general dishonor victory condition requires you to take honor away from the opponent and constantly giving your opponent honor every turn hurts. Playing against certain clans like the Lion, Crane, or Phoenix would make this even harder to do.

I wouldn't be surprised if we saw cards that mitigated or misdirected the honor gains/losses of players, rampant discard effects, and easy dishonoring. An example can be a 1 or 2 cost that simply discards a dynasty card from an opponent's province as it enters play, but probably not holdings as I could see a card like Explosives being reprinted one day. Essentially a reverse Akodo Gunso.

* Of course the problem with these two cards are the steep fate costs. Maybe we get a character that lets you pay with honor rather than fate as a Reaction or Interrupt.

1 hour ago, Kubernes said:

My problem with the dishonor route is that the theme seems to pull at two opposite directions. On the one hand, cards like Blackmail or I can Swim* require you to be dishonorable (have a higher bid than your opponent) which typically results in you losing honor and giving it to the opponent. On the other hand, the general dishonor victory condition requires you to take honor away from the opponent and constantly giving your opponent honor every turn hurts. Playing against certain clans like the Lion, Crane, or Phoenix would make this even harder to do.

I feel like most clans have been given some cards as foundations for future themes. The split from the base theme of the clans is inevitable and has been hinted to allow players to salivate over the future of their respective clans as to which themes would be supported next. Lions have their courtiers, Cranes have their duelists, Dragon has their monks, Crab has their dishonor elements and Phoenix has their samurais. I see Unicorn having their courtier/battlemaidens, and Scorpion would receive their ninjas. I see cards like I can Swim as potential support for a Ninja theme down the line that would focus on dirty tactics and bidding high. Also, lets not forget that bidding high doesn't necessarily translate to you bidding 5 and opponent bidding 1. It's the reason why Bayushi Manipulator, I feel, has his uses in the meantime. A dishonor theme will and should force the opponent to bid low at the start or face the real threat of going down 4 honor in one turn (by bidding 5 at first opportunity like what most players do on regular matchups). Dishonor player bids 1 on regular turns and 2-3 when he has more nefarious deeds in mind. Bayushi Manipulator closes the gap from an opponent desperately bidding high to catch up (having his hand regularly assaulted) so as not to be in too much of a card disadvantage when you bid 1 on a regular turn. You can increase your bid accordingly if you feel you can't bottom him out at your current resources or let the gap fall as it is because you have enough elements to drag him down to 0.

The card Blackmail, on the other hand, only requires you to be less honorable than your opponent. That would be easy with Assassination on the card pool and the sometimes incidental costs of losing dishonored people.

In the spirit of Joe from Cincinatti, I'll also make a bet. I'll bet that the Scorpion will not have cards which work towards a dishonour victory.

Scorpion being the masters of slander (and so focused on dishonour wins) seems like far too narrow an interpretation of the clan. They should be just as capable of dominating the courts and winning through political conflicts as the Crane, and at least as capable in military conflicts.

Dishonouring their opponents should be one of the tools at their disposal, but their true strength should be in their willingness to dishonour themselves in order to get the job done. So the inverse of the Lion with abilities that are better if you bid higher, or have less honour in total. That's where I see cards like Bayushi Manipulator coming into play. He'll allow you to bid boldly and then reduce your honour loss if you've gone too far or, if your opponent also bids high, he'll allow you to push your bid up so you're just the right level of shameful.

12 hours ago, Fumo said:

That's where I see cards like Bayushi Manipulator coming into play. He'll allow you to bid boldly and then reduce your honour loss if you've gone too far or, if your opponent also bids high, he'll allow you to push your bid up so you're just the right level of shameful.

How can Bayushi Manipulator reduce your honor loss? I don't get it.

57 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

How can Bayushi Manipulator reduce your honor loss? I don't get it.

Through the power of misreading cards...

14 hours ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

In the spirit of Joe from Cincinatti, I'll also make a bet. I'll bet that the Scorpion will not have cards which work towards a dishonour victory.

I would take that bet.

14 minutes ago, Yogo Gohei said:

I would take that bet.

You're on. Loser has to change their avatar to Mantis.

1 hour ago, Shosuro Teri said:

How can Bayushi Manipulator reduce your honor loss? I don't get it.

4 minutes ago, Fumo said:

Through the power of misreading cards...

Exactly - but what it can do is allow you to bid more conservatively - say you bid just 2, but your opponent bids 3+, instead of taking that honor you can increase the bid for the card instead. I think that is less impressive, but I guess it is helpful since Scorpion are likely to hover closer to honor loss than others, and will want cards more... I'd prefer some more hijinx involving bid switches...

22 hours ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

You're on. Loser has to change their avatar to Mantis.

In roughly two weeks time, I expect a spirited debate over what constitutes " cards which work towards a dishonour victory" :-D

1 hour ago, Yogo Gohei said:

In roughly two weeks time, I expect a spirited debate over what constitutes " cards which work towards a dishonour victory" :-D

In the spirit of fairness, let me offer a definition here. I'll concede defeat if there are at least three cards which do one of the following:

- Reduce the opponent's honour by more than 1 point.

- Reduce the opponent's honour by 1 point repeatedly.

- Have an ability which triggers when an opponent loses honor.

I am not changing my avatar to Mantis scum on a technicality!

2 hours ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

In the spirit of fairness, let me offer a definition here. I'll concede defeat if there are at least three cards which do one of the following:

- Reduce the opponent's honour by more than 1 point.

- Reduce the opponent's honour by 1 point repeatedly.

- Have an ability which triggers when an opponent loses honor.

Also:

- Can dishonor someone, with the stipulation that something like Rumormonger doesn't count since he moves a dishonor effect without creating a new one.

- Causes a single point of loss. A character with "Reaction: When entering play, target player loses 1 honor." should most certainly count.

- It is conceivable that FFG thought of something that doesn't fall into these categories, but obviously counts. ("If your opponent is below 5 honor, cancel an honor gain", for example) Should such an effect show up, we can use our better judgement. If there is disagreement, we can ask the masses in this thread.

On 7/29/2017 at 2:59 AM, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

In the spirit of Joe from Cincinatti, I'll also make a bet. I'll bet that the Scorpion will not have cards which work towards a dishonour victory.

You said "will not have cards". You could argue that is plural (which I would begrudgingly accept), so 2 cards. Not 3. It is profoundly unlikely there will be 3 cards for a single faction in the core set that do these things.

I will concede that none of the scorpion cards we have seen yet are "contributing to a dishonor victory".

Are we in agreement?

Also, the Avatar change is for 1 month. Any longer than that and I may not be able to show my face in public ever again.

5 hours ago, Yogo Gohei said:

Also, the Avatar change is for 1 month. Any longer than that and I may not be able to show my face in public ever again.

I'm with you there, and it's probably worse for me in that I don't get to wear a mask .

We're going to have to squabble over technicalities for a bit because as you say, neither of us want to look like a Mantis without agreeing that we deserve it. If we can't reach agreement on these then we can call the bet off.

The reason that I said three cards is that three cards is a useful minimum size for a clan subtheme. For example, the Crab have three cards which contribute to their Holdings subtheme (Shrewd Yasuki, Hida Guardian, Rebuild). Two cards is probably too few: the Lion have at least two cards which unbow them, but we wouldn't say that unbowing cards is a subtheme of the Lion clan.

If I said "at least four cards" then that would definitely not be fair on you, I agree. If I said "at least two cards" then it might be random coincidence. Three cards is, I think, fair on both of us.

6 hours ago, Yogo Gohei said:

- Can dishonor someone, with the stipulation that something like Rumormonger doesn't count since he moves a dishonor effect without creating a new one.

Not agreed, I'm afraid. Dishonouring characters is something I fully expect the Scorpion to have. It's a powerful tactical ability and would absolutely destroy some clans (cough cough Phoenix cough) but it's distinct from causing a dishonour victory.

6 hours ago, Yogo Gohei said:

- Causes a single point of loss. A character with "Reaction: When entering play, target player loses 1 honor." should most certainly count.

In my opinion, a single point of honour loss isn't enough. If you played all three of these in a single turn then your opponent would lose 3 honour. That's significant, but it would only cause them to lose the game if you had used other cards to get them down that low in the first place. Those other cards are the ones that matter. Therefore, I'm going to have to disagree with this proviso too.

6 hours ago, Yogo Gohei said:

- It is conceivable that FFG thought of something that doesn't fall into these categories, but obviously counts. ("If your opponent is below 5 honor, cancel an honor gain", for example) Should such an effect show up, we can use our better judgement. If there is disagreement, we can ask the masses in this thread.

I agree to this without reservation.

In fact, I'm happy to add another category of cards here:

- Cards which punish your opponent for having a low Honour.

I think it's quite likely that Scorpion won't directly cause Honour loss to their opponent.

Instead I think they will be at their strongest when they have lower honour - forcing their opponent to bid high.

That how Bayuishi Manipulator will be a strong card for Scorpion: "oh you bid 5 to prevent my abilities from triggering? Well I score 6....".

They will pressure their opponent through character dishonour probably achieved through similar effects to Bayuishi Manipulator (if you have lower honour - dishonour a character) and possibly through dishonoured Scorpion characters (hence Young Rumourmonger).

I don't think they will have any especially strong Fate or Ring manipulation that isn't related to honour in some form, but they might get some hand disruption?

Im excited to see them, because I think they'll cause a real shift in gameplay expectations! ?

On 7/29/2017 at 2:59 AM, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

In the spirit of Joe from Cincinatti, I'll also make a bet. I'll bet that the Scorpion will not have cards which work towards a dishonour victory.

6 hours ago, Kitsu Seinosuke said:

The reason that I said three cards is that three cards is a useful minimum size for a clan subtheme. For example, the Crab have three cards which contribute to their Holdings subtheme (Shrewd Yasuki, Hida Guardian, Rebuild). Two cards is probably too few: the Lion have at least two cards which unbow them, but we wouldn't say that unbowing cards is a subtheme of the Lion clan.

The original bet had nothing to do with "a useful clan subtheme", only "cards that work towards a dishonor victory". Those are not the same thing. At all.

You have moved the goalposts into a bet I am no longer willing to take. In fact, if you look at my first post in this thread from before this bet thing came up, I said that scorpion is unlikely to be the dishonor clan in the LCG. FFG seems to be setting them up as the expensive/powerful event clan.

I would argue that Crab have two cards that "work towards a dishonor victory", Watch Commander and Intimidating Hida.

I would argue that Phoenix has three cards that "work towards a dishonor victory", Asako Diplomat, Magnificent Kimono, and (arguably) Radiant Orator.

This is why I thought that your claim that scorpion would get 0 such cards was pretty safe to bet against. If that is no longer what you are claiming, then I am comfortable stepping away from this bet.