5 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

And if you're a tournament player, let's say that you share @Rat of Vengence or @Icelom 's opinion on game balance. " Okay, so let's have a look at what people are saying. We have the usual threads of people caterwauling that the sky is falling, Nym is going to kill everyone and the horse they rode in on. Then we have threads where people are asking how to stop him dying so quickly.

That sounds like balance to me, at least so far. Let's give it a bit more time and get used to how he plays and the interations with other ships/cards before we have more people mistaking bad play for an OP ship "

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Now imagine that the person that said this is a play tester (I don't know if RoV or Icelom actually are, just making an example). That's how stupid bull gets into this game. Flying at someone, bumping into them, and hitting them with infinite bombs that you ignore yourself isn't broken, and if you complain about it you're just, "Mistaking bad play for an OP ship".

In other words, " It's not broken , just get good. "

Poor Salty/PGS,

Just can't handle the concept that your opinion isn't the same thing as fact

I made a post saying we shouldn't leap to assumptions about how a ship is going to affect the meta. Clearly, you are having trouble dealing with a 1 green 10 hp/shield ship, and since it's wrecking face with your games, it must be OP. You hate turrets. You hate bombs. You want everything YOU don't like nerfed, so you don't have to change your playstyle or adapt to new metas.

Pathetic

3 hours ago, phild0 said:

We look at these cost estimations, and we see "5 pts undercosted" or "3 pts overcosted" compared to another ship, and that throws the player base a red flag. But you cant really say "this is clearly too hard to beat with EVERY archetype" until you've tried and tried or gathered tons of tourney data. Decimators and Falcons have been overcosted turret platforms from the get-go. Soontir was borderline overcosted. It took a while to really understand that it was their PLAY style that made them good, despite the abyssmal cost.

Stop making so much sense; you'll offend people

RoV

That's the differentiator right there.

I don't want to sound like I'm eating the guys cheese but biophysical participates in the forum. Like...as in...actually participates in it.

I consider the man to be ....I guess the phrase we have is..."x wing famous". And he participates in the forum.

There's not really a lot of that coming from too many others. It's actually the opposite. The well known names around this game either actively denounce this place or purposely stay away.UNTIL it's time to post a commercial for a podcast or a YouTube video.

So. I think...ok..that's cool, a podcast is out about x wing, I'll give it a listen.

THEN what you get is the hosts and guests joking about what a **** show the forum is.

Well. Now the plebes are pissed.

Maybe the plebes just need to get good at foruming.

50 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

THEN what you get is the hosts and guests joking about what a **** show the forum is.

Well, as an active participant, it's not hard to find a lot of abysmal content, and the worst threads are often the ones that pull the most glorified attention. Let's not forget the intentional draw thread that was a steaming pile that many of us couldn't keep from digging into.

A lot of positive participation in the forums is sifting through a lot of garbage to find interesting content. Also, there is no need to take offense because it's a larger reaching joke as well. It's funny to joke about the more active xwing communities as deplorable places. The reddit gets the same treatment, as does the nova Facebook page.

As a community grows, more stereotypes are available to poke and prod at, and so it is with xwing.

1 hour ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Well, you flew two Defenders to success at a time when they just weren't easy to win with at all, much less with only two of them, heavily kitted out.

The thing is, even if that feat was an outlier, your follow-up discussion of it, and of Defenders in general, was pretty thoughtful and rigorous. (Which was a nice change, Sturgeon said.) So maybe you're coasting, but there's nothing wrong with that. It's not like you're duping anybody and getting rich.

I guess that was long enough ago that I figured most forumers these days wouldn't have come across the articles. Thanks for the kinds words, anyway.

56 minutes ago, Velvetelvis said:

That's the differentiator right there.

I don't want to sound like I'm eating the guys cheese but biophysical participates in the forum. Like...as in...actually participates in it.

I consider the man to be ....I guess the phrase we have is..."x wing famous". And he participates in the forum.

There's not really a lot of that coming from too many others. It's actually the opposite. The well known names around this game either actively denounce this place or purposely stay away.UNTIL it's time to post a commercial for a podcast or a YouTube video.

So. I think...ok..that's cool, a podcast is out about x wing, I'll give it a listen.

THEN what you get is the hosts and guests joking about what a **** show the forum is.

Well. Now the plebes are pissed.

If I'm x-wing famous, I've never considered myself to be anything more than b-rate. I think it's because when I first started about 3 years ago, some really good players would consistently post fairly long and interesting articles on the forums. I've actually been kind of feeling bad lately, because I haven't done much other than make sparse comments for a while now. I feel like having 1-2 stable, high quality threads on the front page are like the plant roots that keep rain from washing away soil. Not that I think I personally determine the fate of the forum or anything, but I like to try and do my part.

7 hours ago, Velvetelvis said:

X wing famous people only come here periodically to advertise a podcast....

That then goes on to insult the same forum members they try to siphon patreon money from.

You will almost never see anyone in the inner circle of secret greatness post anything other than that.

You know...because we're all to stupid to matter.

I mean, if i was a podcaster, I probably wouldn't post in the forums as much just so I'm not spoiling content for my podcast.

The Krayts are the only podcast I really hear mocking the forums, and they do tend to post somewhat regularly on forums, in addition to decrying ever starting a patreon.

10 minutes ago, jagsba said:

I mean, if i was a podcaster, I probably wouldn't post in the forums as much just so I'm not spoiling content for my podcast.

The Krayts are the only podcast I really hear mocking the forums, and they do tend to post somewhat regularly on forums, in addition to decrying ever starting a patreon.

That's largely true, but almost every podcast uses the forums as a punching bag. It's almost always in the format of "there are people going crazy on the forums over this, but I don't think it's really that bad". It's factual, and easy, if disingenuous, to point out wrong-headed opinions on the forums as a counterpoint to one's own opinion, because there are a lot of wrong ideas on the forums, because there are a lot of people on the forums.

Scum and villainy is pretty good at trashing on the forums as well.

And the most insulting host is also a playtester.

But I think kelvan (if that's the correct forum handle) is off the hook as far as I'm concerned regarding my sourness .if I have my name's right he also participates in the forum which I appreciate.

And if I'm totally honest with myself...the amount of people that are active here is actually probably about equal or exceeds the amount of people that just **** talk us and post commercials.

I may be letting a few really rotten apples spoil the.entire applecart as far as my feelings about podcasters go.

28 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I guess that was long enough ago that I figured most forumers these days wouldn't have come across the articles. Thanks for the kinds words, anyway.

If I'm x-wing famous, I've never considered myself to be anything more than b-rate. I think it's because when I first started about 3 years ago, some really good players would consistently post fairly long and interesting articles on the forums. I've actually been kind of feeling bad lately, because I haven't done much other than make sparse comments for a while now. I feel like having 1-2 stable, high quality threads on the front page are like the plant roots that keep rain from washing away soil. Not that I think I personally determine the fate of the forum or anything, but I like to try and do my part.

I think you still get credit for it because it's been immortalized and is now impossible to repeat;), but also because it's deserved as you still come up with unique takes and foster positive discussion (your Rexpertise thread and you were an early adopter of QuickDraw prior to LWF).

1 hour ago, Velvetelvis said:

If I have my name's right he also participates in the forum which I appreciate.

@Kelvan , @blairbunke and @sozin are all frequent or semi frequent contributors, often with very strong content. @Starslinger72 I'm not sure if he has been active frequently, but has always had worthwhile content to share. He might be more active on Reddit if I'm recalling correctly. And now with @MajorJuggler playing a part, if he chooses to continue to do so, they might be the most active podcast on the forums. Surpassed by maybe only Shuttle Tydirium or maybe Krayts as well (I don't know who's who with them).

I think you are taking the forum hate a little too personal in the podcasts Velvetelvis. Poking fun at the forums is largely based around the hilarity of the forums themselves, as it's a place where you go to discuss xwing, and instead just get into disagreements.

The F-wing is OP and needs a nerf.

It's not outside the realm of possibility man.

I've had this bizzare stink about the podcasts for a couple weeks now. I don't know why it bugs me so much. Usually I could care less.

I'm trying to work it all out anyways.

This faq leak thing has me doing the following formula....

Playtester practicing secret stuff I can live with that, I don't play against any of them accept maybe on vassal when I don't even know it.

Plus

Playtester sharing the secret stuff with their buddies

Multiplied by

Well ****...that's a larger group of people keeping secrets from people who are spending their time and money working on this game.

Multi-plus-divided by

These playtesters are also on the podcasts or are guests on them. And these are the same people I have heard trashing the forum community

Equals roughly

"Well it's easy to look down your noses at us when you and your buddies aren't wasting time playing with rules that only you know are going away soon.... you cork soakers".

I'm of course not as upset as this all probably reads but man....there's something ....something...bugging me.

^ Yeah @Velvetelvis, I'm with you on some of those poionts.

Something feels off. I'm not bothered podcasters -- maybe I listen to the wrong ones -- nor positive or negative comments about the forums. It's the internet, after all.

But the leak is disturbing ... the sense that there's a part of the community that is part of some clique sharing NDA'd playtest material.

On one level, I feel like playtesters should not be playing organized competitive X-wing period --- no advantage should accrue from insider knowledge (even if they don't all get the same stuff, or know what gets used, it's still insider knowledge). And then again, I want experienced knowledgeable people helping to develop the game, and what do I care that some people might gain a competitive advantage ... whatever, Fly Casual.

Maybe it's just that I really don't want to know what goes on behind the curtain. I'd rather believe in the Wizard.

7 hours ago, Sithborg said:

Again, this is an assumption that the playtesters actually saw and playtested the final cards. This is not always the case.

I have so many unanswered questions about the whole playtesting cycle that any comments will be worthless speculation. Unless someone has an"in" to the entire sequence of what's called "play testing" all we are doing is dissecting the results. It would be nice to have some sort of guideline for the whole process from start to end.

1 hour ago, Kdubb said:

@Kelvan , @blairbunke and @sozin are all frequent or semi frequent contributors, often with very strong content. @Starslinger72 I'm not sure if he has been active frequently, but has always had worthwhile content to share. He might be more active on Reddit if I'm recalling correctly. And now with @MajorJuggler playing a part, if he chooses to continue to do so, they might be the most active podcast on the forums. Surpassed by maybe only Shuttle Tydirium or maybe Krayts as well (I don't know who's who with them).

I think you are taking the forum hate a little too personal in the podcasts Velvetelvis. Poking fun at the forums is largely based around the hilarity of the forums themselves, as it's a place where you go to discuss xwing, and instead just get into disagreements.

I'm over 1k posts since 2013. You can't touch my forum cred.

Hey, boss, can I borrow some of that cred?

@Velvetelvis none of the current Scum and Villainy cast is a playtester. We all have been in the past though (Wave 6 was my last wave).

>80% of my content on these forums is not podcast related.

Yes. I should actually clarify my snark.

The fella that I think went too far isn't on the show anymore it seems.

Also, I want to say that I JUST finished your latest episode that mentions this whole playtester mess and I appreciate that your crew sees the playtester problem.

Also an extra thumbs up for not insulting the forums.

Slightly off topic, but I do want to again point out, just because something is strong/good/hard to beat, doesn't mean it is bad for a game. A new challenge is just another way for a game to progress.

Wave 11 sure gave us that new challenge with Nym, strong Lowhhrick/Selflessness/Biggs combos, and Cruise Missile potential.

Until we get some more time into them, it really is unfair to call them "mistakes" without also stating "In my opinion" beforehand. Otherwise it is misleading and inadvertently convinces players to not even bother to use skill or tech choices to overcome the new hotness. I know my first impressions when facing both Nym and Biggs+Lowhhrick were "wow this is strong, but at least it is easier to overcome than Attani and Jumpmasters".

Matchups can seem difficult, but XWing is still about player vs player. There are just more strong players. You have to become stronger to succeed.

Also, a good reason Nym and Lowhhrick + Selflessness probably got into the game in their form is probably because they were barely able to overcome Jumpmasters, or not able to, so by comparison, looked fine.

12 minutes ago, phild0 said:

just because something is strong/good/hard to beat, doesn't mean it is bad for a game. A new challenge is just another way for a game to progress.

Stop Phild0! We all hate wave 11, it is ruining the game, and the game is dying.

But on a serious note, Phil is right. As far as wave 11 is concerned, let's give it at least some time to sink in before we decide everything is busted. Lowrrick, Nym, more TLTs, and a 5 attack 3 point munition that lets you keep your lock are all pretty nuts. But we are also in the "ooh new stuff!" phase. Now the counter play phase begins.

7 minutes ago, phild0 said:

Also, a good reason Nym and Lowhhrick + Selflessness probably got into the game in their form is probably because they were barely able to overcome Jumpmasters, or not able to, so by comparison, looked fine.

Maybe with open play testing we could better tell.

With open play testing I suggest a tiered approach: all FAQ entries are open playtester (lowest tier), article spoilers are tested openly (second tier), and all new stuff is tested privately (top tier). Ffg would have to spoil dials first for this to work.

1 hour ago, sozin said:

With open play testing I suggest a tiered approach: all FAQ entries are open playtester (lowest tier), article spoilers are tested openly (second tier), and all new stuff is tested privately (top tier). Ffg would have to spoil dials first for this to work.

Now this I can get on board with as each tier had different responsibilities.

I too have an initial reaction to why certain groups are playing different stuff at certain times and seem to be slightly more prepared at premier events (FAQ influence).

When I played [Game A] I got the distinct impression that R&D/playtesting was a shambles. A short while after that [Game B] offered me the chance to join a playtesting group and because it would let me peek past the curtain I accepted... what I found behind that curtain was worse than I had ever thought possible. Now I play [Game C] and keep an eye on [Game D] and they share many of the same issues from [Game A]. I also understand that [Game E] and [Game F] have experienced similar things.

The same things go wrong across so many products that I believe the utter shambles I saw when I worked on [Game B] was not an isolated thing to a particular designer or playtest community but endemic to FFGs company identity and overarching design ethos.

It won't be any different on future. Accepting their standards of design, organisation and communication as a reality is something you have to do when you decide to invest in an FFG game.