So I just finished my first campaign with my friends and I'd appreciate some feedback on a rule I was using regarding Despairs. Whenever a PC would make a ranged attack on an enemy while one of his allies was engaged with said enemy, I'd upgrade the difficulty once. If a despair popped up, they'd hit the engaged PC instead of their target in a bout of friendly fire. One of my players has always been vocal about how rough that ruling is, and I don't disagree with him. But at the same time, I feel like it doesn't happen so often that it's a big deal, and it adds a bit of danger when ranged attackers are firing into a melee fight that they're friends are tangled up in.

Is this too much? Should I be looking for more creative ways to use the Despair without hitting my PCs like that? Or is it a fair use given the situation? Thoughts?

RAW do agree: "When attacking a target engaged with an ally, the attacker upgrades the difficulty of the check by one (for more on upgrading difficulty, see page 28). In addition, if the attacker's check succeeds but he generates at least [Despair], that [Despair] is automatically spent to make the attacker hit one of the individuals engaged with the target (of the GM's choice), instead of the target." (AoR CRB, p. 223).

I, myself, am handling it slightly differently: As a Success should always conclude an action successfully, it will succeed in hitting the original target; the Despair will resolve in hitting said ally with base damage (Threats/further Despairs possibly even critting).

Now, that I think of it: Once, I used it to activate Blast instead.

There's so much of the Core Books I need to reread, I'm constantly forgetting so many of the these basic rules. I'm inclined to agree with you on that, and was thinking of something pretty similar. Thanks for the feedback

Shoot em. The attack has to be successful though. If the attack against the enemy fails I don't hit the ally. Otherwise, shoot em.

I wouldn't call it unreasonable, but I also wouldn't always use the despair for that every time that situation occurs.

Mix it up some times.

EG: Have him accidentally shoot the weapon out of his ally's hand and damage it one level.

Or the ally winds up stumbling and gives the enemy a free attack (maybe with a black due to the hasty nature of it), or if he's trying to get out of engagement, a free maneuver.

The RAW agrees with you, in that if you roll a Despair while shooting into a melee in which an ally of yours is engaged, you automatically hit the ally. It's also the only instance in all the rules where a Despair result not only overrides the success of a roll, but also requires the GM to spend it in that fashion. Compared to the rest of the rules where Despair results have options on how they can be used, it sticks out like a sore thumb.

Me, I disagree with the RAW, and simply treat a Despair that's rolled in that situation the same as I would any other Despair, something that I as the GM can choose how to spend, with the "shoot an ally" simply being an option to select from, albeit one that I generally don't use simply because more often than not I can come up with results that are far more creative and interesting than "you shoot your ally in the **** with a blaster."

I see the reason why they specifically have despair spent in this manner when shooting into a melee. It is a very real danger in close-quarters combat to hit an ally with "friendly fire". It happens all too often.

I'm not sure it's a big deal either way. We've got a mixxed party of several axe-crazy characters. Pretty much any fight we have involves some of us shooting at others engaged with the target. Our GM always upgrades, and over two years of campaign (900 earned xp worth, at 20 per 4-hour session), and I think we've had exactly two friendly fire incidents.

Seriously, even with that dis-incentive the only time we've had a shooter back off involved using ship's guns to fire into the melee.

if the friendly fire is a problem for the player they should reconsider theire fighting style.

e.g. What are the initative spots? (here 2 closecombat fighters and a ranged one)

Player
Player
Enemy (ranged)
Player

first round:

Ranged figher shoots
close combatant goes in and attacks
enemy disengaging and shooting
2nd close combatant goes in and attacks

second round:

2nd Close combatant attacks and uses maneuver to disengage
Range fighter can shoot without penality.
enemy will do something
1st Close combatant use maneuver to engage, then attack, then use second maneuver to disengae again.

and so on.

If the players don't want to get shoot by friendly fire they should keep an eye on theire tactical situation.
if they only cry about beeing shoot because they just want to use every round 1-2 aim maneuvers (so they can't disengage) then MOW THEM DOWN...

I'll echo what Genuine says. I see despairs come up very rarely in my games and especially in this situation that I autospend one for friendly fire regardless of success or failure. I've been playing this game since the EotE beginner box was initially released, and I can probably count on one hand the number of times one player has hit another in this situation.

11 hours ago, Genuine said:

Our GM always upgrades, and over two years of campaign (900 earned xp worth, at 20 per 4-hour session), and I think we've had exactly two friendly fire incidents.

You are very lucky indeed. In my current campaign with not even half that amount of xp, 6 PCs, we've had multiple instances of friendly fire, sometimes in the same session. Every character has been hit by or has shot an ally. One character has been hit at least once by every other PC.

I've been thinking about adding a house rule do you all think this sounds balanced?

When a PC is making a ranged attack against an enemy that's engaged with an ally, they can max out on their aim maneuvers. But instead of gaining the three boost die, they instead downgrade the difficulty of their attack, so that they're removing the threat of a Despair coming up.

The way I figure, most players are going to need two turns to max out their aim maneuvers, so they're sacrificing a turn's worth of potential damage in order to avoid friendly fire by taking careful aim. What you guys think?

You can only Aim twice, it will carry over between turns, but you only ever get 2 Boost dice. Asked and answered already.

Infmed. I think you are on the right direction with you houserule. The "called shot" version of aim could be used to steady your aim, and wait patiently for the right moment. Essentially you are trading the auto-upgrade and despair for 2 setback at the cost of a maneuver.

I also wouldn't allow it given that there's a talent that lets the PC avoid friendly fire on a despair, I think it is in Warleader? This would make that talent much less awesome and unique.

30 minutes ago, biggreen10 said:

I also wouldn't allow it given that there's a talent that lets the PC avoid friendly fire on a despair, I think it is in Warleader? This would make that talent much less awesome and unique.

Yep. It's Prophetic Aim , it's a bottom tier talent in the lower far right corner.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Yep. It's Prophetic Aim , it's a bottom tier talent in the lower far right corner.

I had no idea that was an ability, in that case, the PCs are just going to have to accept the risk that comes with firing into a brawl.

1 minute ago, infmed said:

I had no idea that was an ability, in that case, the PCs are just going to have to accept the risk that comes with firing into a brawl.

Yep. Specifically, Prophtetic Aim says this:

Quote

Force Talent : While the character is benefitting from an Aim maneuver, Despair from his Ranged (Heavy) and Ranged (Light) checks cannot be spent to cause his attacks to hit any of his allies who are engaged with the target.

Perfect! Thanks for confirming. I have a warleader, but he doesn't shoot, so I haven't picked up that talent, I just know it's kicking around.

This is a perfect example of shooting into melee. "Stop helping me!"

When in doubt, it's always fun when triumph and despair cause something more powerful.

I also disagree with the RAW. This is the only instance where a Despair undoes a success, and they throw "automatically" at you. Nowhere else in the game do they do this.

So I do like other folks here, and tweak it. If you're successful with the attack roll, and roll a Despair, you just shot them both. If you FAIL with a Despair, you just shot your buddy, and not the other guy. As for how much damage, I figure base damage plus Failures. Now, if I have something even better to use that Despair on, I'll use it there, but yeah, chances are I'll just hit the good guy.