I know that people like to poo-poo spreadsheets, but there is a good reason for their existence.
I was going to come and comment about how we're all dumping on this guy but after seeing the state of his presentation I'm holding back my call for peace.
As a professional data analyst I imagine this is what it must feel like when a professional wedding photographer looks at a Craigslist wedding photographer's portfolio.
Edited by TaeSWXW16 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:The first ever shot in a Star Wars movie is an ISD shooting.
I think this is a joke
Edited by FrightfulCommand27 minutes ago, TaeSWXW said:I know that people like to poo-poo spreadsheets, but there is a good reason for their existence.
I was going to come and comment about how we're all dumping on this guy but after seeing the state of his presentation I'm holding back my call for peace.
As a professional data analyst I imagine this is what it must feel like when a professional wedding photographer looks at a Craigslist wedding photographer's portfolio.
I thought the tone of the thread was rather neutral. There is a bunch of numbers, people criticized, and xerpo responded accordingly by doing a further analysis. I'm not sure if you saw the initial OP, but it was just a bunch of numbers added together which is why people were saying you can't draw any conclusions from it, which xerpo was alluding to in the OP.
As it stands, it's still a bunch of numbers which really have no impact on the game. You can make the argument that Imp squads have low hull, but then they also have the Defender and Decimator. Or say Rebels have slow squads, but then they have A-Wings. Most importantly, the conclusions you could try to draw from the data could have no impact on a fleet you could make. You might see Rebels have more long range dice, but then build a fleet composed of Torp HH and MC30s, which have a relatively low number of red dice compared to black.
32 minutes ago, CaribbeanNinja said:What would be super cool is a true Rebel vs Imp REAL debate.
I don't know how data like this can be constructed into something useful.
How do you have a discussion on point values and amount of dice thrown when you can take different ships and squads?
I just see numbers with no application. And for the most part, both sides are quite similar.
3 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:The squadron sums, particularly the sums of non-unique squadrons, don't really mean a lot. I'm not going to buy one of each Imperial squadron, I'm going to buy six TIE/LNs and a pair of Defenders. Average would be more useful there, but since most of these figures have relatively discrete data sets, medians and/or standard deviations would be appropriate almost everywhere you have an average. Those analyses are very useful to dig out whether or not an average is being skewed by the size or tilt of the data set, since the Rebel commanders are probably all nearer to their average than the Imperials, who have a bunch of cheapos (Ozzel, JJ, Motti, Tagge) and a couple hideously expensive ones (Vader, Tarkin). That would also help elucidate other smaller points in the figures, such as that the average space superiority Rebel squadron does have more hull than the average Imperial space superiority squadron, which is usually the point being made there. As a matter of fact, those limited figures appear to validate every assumption you set out to prove/disprove, so while @Vergilius and everyone else is right, open-ended assumptions are bad, the rules of thumb like that developed here on the forums are generally correct.
It's good you are already taking your own ideas and conclusions from the data. Any other person can make other assumptions from the same data you just read. Specialy because is not some data that a random troll dropped in a thread to kill it. These are facts that anyone can prove and relate to when arguing about something. Numbers don't lie. People do often.
Now just goes on how you will manage the thruth behind this data. For instance, for you a difference of an absolute 1 total hull is enough to state that rebels have a higher superiority hull and argue about it. For others, that difference is ridiculous and not worth a discussion. This might help some people when deciding if getting involved or not in certain threads.
One piece of context that is sadly missing is the entire extra ship that Rebels have.
Large Ships:
Imperial: 2 (average cost 115)
Rebel: 4 (average cost 104.75)
Medium Ships
Imperial: 6 (average cost 76)
Rebel: 2 (average cost 76.5)
Small ships (without flotillas)
Imperial: 6 (average cost 53.8)
Rebel: 10 (average cost 51.6)
Flotillas
Imperial: 2 (average cost 25.5)
Rebel: 2 (average cost 21)
All small ships including Flotillas
Imperial : 8 (average cost 46.75)
Rebel: 12 (average cost 44.4)
This definitely brings a few more things in to perspective for both sides.
In competition, it's important to note that Rebels have 4 additional small ship types (not including flotillas) in a game where the meta conclusively points towards high activation fleets composed primarily of many small ships.
More broadly, in every category Rebel ships are either cheaper on average or effectively equal on average when compared to their Imperial counterparts.
Also, I feel obligated to mention that the Quasar-1 is the only reason Rebels aren't decisively cheaper in every category. Without it, the Imperial ship cost average by size balloons to 80.4.
Edited by thecactusman176 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:One piece of context that is sadly missing is the entire extra ship that Rebels have.
Large Ships:
Imperial: 2 (average cost 115)
Rebel: 4 (average cost 104.75)
Medium Ships
Imperial: 6 (average cost 76)
Rebel: 2 (average cost 76.5)
Small ships (without flotillas)
Imperial: 6 (average cost 53.8)
Rebel: 10 (average cost 51.6)
Flotillas
Imperial: 2 (average cost 25.5)
Rebel: 2 (average cost 21)
All small ships including Flotillas
Imperial : 8 (average cost 46.75)
Rebel: 12 (average cost 44.4)
This definitely brings a few more things in to perspective for both sides.
In competition, it's important to note that Rebels have 4 additional small ship types (not including flotillas) in a game where the meta conclusively points towards high activation fleets composed primarily of many small ships.
More broadly, in every category Rebel ships are either cheaper on average or effectively equal on average when compared to their Imperial counterparts.
The extra rebel ship is included in all the averages. Total point cost and average, firepower by hull averages and deffense tokens average. If you care to see you will see that is intentionaly balanced for rebels to have that extra ship. And more surprisingly even with that extra ship they fall back in several averages such as hull points or firepower, while the shields and speed average is almost the same for both factions. And is exactly the same in deffense tokens distribution.
9 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:More broadly, in every category Rebel ships are either cheaper on average or effectively equal on average when compared to their Imperial counterparts.
Yeah, but in and of itself that means nothing, really. Their uses and stats are different, so you can't compare cost to say which is 'better', 'over-costed', 'favored' or anything. It still is kinda meaningless. So long as a side has 1 ship in each category you cannot predict the 'standard' build or play-style that faction will have.
Another thing to take into account is the definite difference in upgrade types by faction.
For example, rebels having more access to Defensive Retrofits and Imps having more access to Weapons Teams.
I think that, navigation charts and Squad differences provide the inherent differences between the factions.
11 minutes ago, xerpo said:It's good you are already taking your own ideas and conclusions from the data. Any other person can make other assumptions from the same data you just read. Specialy because is not some data that a random troll dropped in a thread to kill it. These are facts that anyone can prove and relate to when arguing about something. Numbers don't lie. People do often.
Now just goes on how you will manage the thruth behind this data. For instance, for you a difference of an absolute 1 total hull is enough to state that rebels have a higher superiority hull and argue about it. For others, that difference is ridiculous and not worth a discussion. This might help some people when deciding if getting involved or not in certain threads.
I think @GhostofNobodyInParticular has hit the mark with what is at the heart of many of those concerned about your implications with the data you provided.
Just now, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:Yeah, but in and of itself that means nothing, really. Their uses and stats are different, so you can't compare cost to say which is 'better', 'over-costed', 'favored' or anything. It still is kinda meaningless. So long as a side has 1 ship in each category you cannot predict the 'standard' build or play-style that faction will have.
While this may have been targeted, I think this speaks volumes towards the cognitive dissonance we are seeing between @xerpo and other folks.
1 minute ago, Geodes said:I think @GhostofNobodyInParticular has hit the mark with what is at the heart of many of those concerned about your implications with the data you provided.
While this may have been targeted, I think this speaks volumes towards the cognitive dissonance we are seeing between @xerpo and other folks.
Yes.
Another way to put it is the difference between knowledge and wisdom. There's that old tongue-in-cheek proverb that knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that it doesn't go in a fruit salad.
We have a bunch of data points here. So there's an element in which we have knowledge. It just isn't assembled in any kind of fashion. And even as an expert player, I'm not sure how it is supposed to help me play the game better.
Its more for shooting the breeze with friends over at Star Wars Armada trivia night.
5 hours ago, xerpo said:The extra rebel ship is included in all the averages. Total point cost and average, firepower by hull averages and deffense tokens average. If you care to see you will see that is intentionaly balanced for rebels to have that extra ship. And more surprisingly even with that extra ship they fall back in several averages such as hull points or firepower, while the shields and speed average is almost the same for both factions. And is exactly the same in deffense tokens distribution.
Your data does average them out, but the issue is that Rebels are almost always capable of fitting more ships in to their fleets due to lower average costs, in a game where activation advantage is critical. They can do this regardless of how many squadrons they take, how many upgrades are on each ship, whom their commander is, etc. With proper activation control, players can safely fly 1-2 major combat ships and do the vast majority if not the entirety of their damage through those single ships.
Edited by thecactusman176 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:With proper activation control, players can safely fly 1-2 major combat ships and do the vast majority if not the entirety of their damage through those single ships.
So can the Imps. And I get that the difference in point cost means that the Rebs can do it easier, but how much does that help them?
Actually hang on, I'll check. BRB.
Just now, thecactusman17 said:Your data dis average them out, but the issue is that Rebels are almost always capable of fitting more ships in to their fleets due to lower average costs, in a game where activation advantage is critical. They can do this regardless of how many squadrons they take, how many upgrades are on each ship, whom their commander is, etc. With proper activation control, players can safely fly 1-2 major combat ships and do the vast majority if not the entirety of their damage through those single ships.
How am I dis average-
ing?
them out? It is included in the statistics and therefore included in the division for the average. As I'm summing up that extra ship shields, dice, hull, deffense tokens etc to the mix, its obvious it should go divided by an extra 1 in the average. If you dont want to see it in the average, what ship should I take out? An mC80? A CR90? Wich one is the "extra" ship for you?
As I said previously I'm not trying to convince anyone of anything, and of course the playstyle, skill, upgrade slots, luck and many other factors come in play. I'm not arguing that. I'm just dropping some
facts
about the core game itself for people to take their own conclusions. Or none, or whatever they want to do with it.
1 minute ago, xerpo said:How am I dis average- ing? them out?
I think he meant 'does'
15 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:but the issue is that Rebels are almost always capable of fitting more ships in to their fleets due to lower average costs
This is exactly the type of absolute statments this thread is encouraging to remove.
I'll just include the average ship cost if that is bothering you that much.
12 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:So can the Imps. And I get that the difference in point cost means that the Rebs can do it easier, but how much does that help them?
Actually hang on, I'll check. BRB.
Right. So I had begun to answer this question, then I realized that it was pointless, because it would be arbitrary and thus of no value. Knowing that one side can afford more ships is not of much use, and the fact that the Reb's can afford more ships doesn't mean that they are always doing so, nor will one build a list under such an assumption. . .
20 minutes ago, Vergilius said:Yes.
Another way to put it is the difference between knowledge and wisdom. There's that old tongue-in-cheek proverb that knowledge is knowing that a tomato is a fruit. Wisdom is knowing that it doesn't go in a fruit salad.
We have a bunch of data points here. So there's an element in which we have knowledge. It just isn't assembled in any kind of fashion. And even as an expert player, I'm not sure how it is supposed to help me play the game better.
Its more for shooting the breeze with friends over at Star Wars Armada trivia night.
Why are you so against accepting simple facts? Is it because they are not like you expected? I'm not trying to create a master list here, I'm going to the root because people tend to bend the roots to their own, expecting that noobody would care to check the truth behind it. I'm sure you are not one of those. If it is not helping you because you already knew all this facts why do you bother at all?
1 minute ago, xerpo said:Why are you so against accepting simple facts? Is it because they are not like you expected? I'm not trying to create a master list here, I'm going to the root because people tend to bend the roots to their own, expecting that noobody would care to check the truth behind it. I'm sure you are not one of those. If it is not helping you because you already knew all this facts why do you bother at all?
I guess I am missing the context of your concern. Can you give us a scenario where this would be relevant? Perhaps people are just misunderstanding. We want to understand the need for this data.
1 minute ago, Geodes said:I guess I am missing the context of your concern. Can you give us a scenario where this would be relevant? Perhaps people are just misunderstanding. We want to understand the need for this data.
I agree with his sentiment.
1 minute ago, Geodes said:I guess I am missing the context of your concern. Can you give us a scenario where this would be relevant? Perhaps people are just misunderstanding. We want to understand the need for this data.
If you can't find an use (or at least a logical conclusion of your own, after all this data is not made up) out of this data then it is definetely not for you. And I'm really tired of getting involved in random engagements.
9 minutes ago, xerpo said:Why are you so against accepting simple facts? Is it because they are not like you expected? I'm not trying to create a master list here, I'm going to the root because people tend to bend the roots to their own, expecting that noobody would care to check the truth behind it. I'm sure you are not one of those. If it is not helping you because you already knew all this facts why do you bother at all?
There's accepting facts, and there's making use of those facts. I think he's stuck on the second, as am I. For example, I could tell you that during a 'low' point in the Crusades, Frankish soldiers were captured in such droves that in auction 1 could sell for less than 1 shoe.
That is a fact. Now, of what use is it to you?
I find the same issue with your numbers. Yes , they are facts. But of what value? They won't influence my thoughts for fleet-building, for the reasons I expressed earlier. They won't affect my game-plan, for that is molded based on my own fleet, and the fleet immediately in front of me, not the averages of my faction and the other's.
Edited by GhostofNobodyInParticular1 minute ago, xerpo said:If you can't find an use (or at least a logical conclusion of your own, after all this data is not made up) out of this data then it is definetely not for you. And I'm really tired of getting involved in random engagements.
May I ask then, purely out of curiosity and a desire to understand your point of view, what value you derive from your numbers?
Just now, xerpo said:If you can't find an use (or at least a logical conclusion of your own, after all this data is not made up) out of this data then it is definetely not for you. And I'm really tired of getting involved in random engagements.
I'm sorry my question has upset you. I am not trying to cause you grief, but instead provide a vessel for you to highlight the value to others.
1 minute ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:May I ask then, purely out of curiosity and a desire to understand your point of view, what value you derive from your numbers?
I thought it would be useful in several ways:
First to avoid the missarguing with absolutes or straight made up numbers. Here is a refference.
Second, to brake down the game to averages, as an interesting fact, for those who appreciate it. I learned quite a few things, even with 2 years playing in my back, about rear arcs (that everyone is so obssesed in hidding) and how useful can they be specialy for rebels at long range and high speed after jumping over an enemy ship, for instance. This data helps to see things in another way maybe with perspective.
Third, as a rebel player only, to prove facts about the game. Imperials are superior, in numbers (not luck, fleet design, skill). While Rebels are struggling to follow up and mistakely taken as superior in
settled statements
like the ones I posted in the beggining of the OP.
This is the conclusions I take, personally, from the facts providen (in this case by me, but would be the same if anyone cared to post anything like this previously) and so anyone here is free to take the conclusions they want from the facts providen. With a difference, this facts are true.