Statistics we might forget about (updated!)

By xerpo, in Star Wars: Armada

These facts have an inmediate impact when fleet building, even when we are not fully aware about them so all we do is make assumptions, too many times wrong assumptions, such us: "Imperial squadrons are in general weaker than rebel squadrons" or "the lack of hull in rebel ships are compensated by their speed or their shields" or "rebels have a great margin when fleet building, in general they have a lower cost in everything". Too many times I've heard those statements or arguments supported on those statements, time to see things how they really are.

These are facts, not my personal opinion. If you want to jump on someone's neck go on the developers ones :D

Imperial aces total points: 351
Rebel aces total points: 392
Imparial standard squadrons total points: 168
Rebel standard squadrons total points: 157
Total imperial squadrons points: 519
Total rebel squadrons points: 549


Imperial squadrons total hull (by type): 62
Rebel squadrons total hull (by type): 63

Imperial "scatter aces": 8
Rebel "scatter aces": 4

Imperial "bomber" keyword squadrons (Darth Vader not included): 9
Rebel "bomber" keyword squadrons: 21

Imperial squadrons average speed: 3.9
Rebel squadrons average speed: 3.0

Most expensive squadron in game: Hera Syndulla 28 ( +1 from the second Morna Kee)
Cheapest squadron in game: Z95 Headhunter 7 ( -1 from the second TIE Squadron)

Imperial commanders total points: 239 Average: 26.2
Rebel commanders total points: 269 Average: 29.8



*For all the following numbers remember that rebels have 1 more ship in their rooster at the moment. Even acknowledging that, some statictics are quite blunt.


Imperial total ship cost: 1060 Average ship cost: 66.25
Rebel total ship cost: 1140 Average ship cost: 63.3

Imperial total ship hull (by type): 51
Rebel total ship hull (by type): 48
Imperial average ship hull (by type): 6.4
Rebel average ship hull (by type): 5.3

Imperial average ship speed (by type): 2.9
Rebel average ship speed (by type): 3

Imperial total ship shields (by type): 66
Rebel total ship shields (by type): 79
Imperial average ship shields (by type): 8.25
Rebel average ship shields (by type): 8.7

Most expensive ship in game: ISDII 120 ( +6 from the second MC80 Assault Cruiser)
Cheapest ship in game: GR75 Medium transports 18 ( -5 from the second Gozanti class cruiser)


In resquest of @GhostofNobodyInParticular


Firepower by hulls per faction:

Imperial total front hull: 64 (25 red, 25 blue, 14 black) Imperial average front hull per ship: 4 dice . 39% long range 39% medium range 22% close range
Rebel total front hull: 58 (30 red, 21 blue, 7 black) Rebel average front hull per ship: 3,2 dice . 52% long range 36% medium range 12% close range

Imperial total broadside: 46 (19 red, 15 blue, 12 black) Imperial average broadside per ship: 2,9 dice. 41%long range 33% medium range 26% close range
Rebel total broadside: 50 (24 red, 18 blue, 8 black) Rebel average broadside per ship: 2,7 dice. 48% long range 36% medium range 16% close range

Imperial total rear hull: 28 (12 red, 13 blue, 3 black) Imperial average rear hull per ship: 1,75 dice. 43% long range 46% medium range 11% close range
Rebel total rear hull: 30 (18 red, 10 blue, 2 black) Rebel average rear hull per ship: 1,6 dice. 60% long range 33% medium range 7% close range

Imperial total dice: 138 (56 red, 53 blue, 29 black) Imperial total average per ship: 8,6 dice
Rebel total dice: 138 (72 red, 49 blue, 17 black) Rebel total average per ship: 7,6 dice.

Imperial total AA: 22 (1 red, 14 blue, 7 black) Imperial AA average per ship: 1,4 dice . 5%long range 63% medium range 32% close range Rebel total AA: 24 (16 blue, 8 black) Rebel AA average per ship: 1,3 dice . ---------- 67% medium range 33% close range

Ship defense tokens per faction (by type):

Imperial ships with Brace tokens : 6 Total of Brace tokens: 6 Average Brace tokens per ship: 0,75
Rebel ships with Brace tokens: 5 Total of Brace tokens: 7 Average Brace tokens per ship: 0,75

Imperial ships with Redirect tokens: 6 Total of Redirect tokens: 9 Average Redirect tokens per ship: 1,1
Rebel ships with Redirect tokens: 7 Total of Redirect tokens: 8 Average Redirect tokens per ship: 0,8

Imperial ships with Evade tokens: 4 Total of Evade tokens: 5 Average Evade tokens per ship: 0,65
Rebel ships with Evade tokens: 7 Total of Evade tokens: 9 Average Evade tokens per ship: 1

Imperial ships with Contain tokens: 3 Total of Contain tokens: 4 Average Contain tokens per ship: 0,5
Rebel ships with Contain tokens: 2 Total of Contain tokens: 2 Average Contain tokens per ship: 0,2

Imperial ships with Scatter tokens: 1 ------
Rebel ships with Scatter tokens: 1 ------

Total imperial defense tokens: 25 Average defense tokens per ship: 3,1
Total rebel defense tokens: 28 Average defense tokens per ship: 3,1

Edited by xerpo

Like all statistics ... this tells nothing without context!

Aces - what makes an ace? Is it all the unique squadrons?

Standard squadrons total - is this one entry for each type? eg TIE/LN is one or is it 8? (or how ever many 1 x core & 1 x sqn blister 1 gives you)

Commander total points - what this actually show? You can only take one so the stats of commanders should be cheepest & most expensive

Ships/ Hull counts - you have by type in brackets what does that mean? Does it mean you've only given us the top level and not the size brake downs?

EDIT - ps my feelings on stats can be summed up with the quote "there's lies, **** lies then there's statistics"

Edited by slasher956
24 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

Like all statistics ... this tells nothing without context!

Aces - what makes an ace? Is it all the unique squadrons?

Standard squadrons total - is this one entry for each type? eg TIE/LN is one or is it 8? (or how ever many 1 x core & 1 x sqn blister 1 gives you)

Commander total points - what this actually show? You can only take one so the stats of commanders should be cheepest & most expensive

Ships/ Hull counts - you have by type in brackets what does that mean? Does it mean you've only given us the top level and not the size brake downs?

EDIT - ps my feelings on stats can be summed up with the quote "there's lies, **** lies then there's statistics"

The number provided for aces is for all the unique squadrons. My bad.
The standard squadrons total is for the sum of each standard unit of each type of squadron.
The commander total points is exatly what it is. Dont know what is your angle here. Rebels have to invest more in commanders in average.
By type means that I'm not counting both versions of the ships for the total sum up since the shields and hull of them is the same in both versions.


Statistics are wielded all over the forums to prove things all the time, obviously taken out of context and to prove something the wielder is trying to. Here you have clean base statistics to reach the conclussion you want.

Edited by xerpo

I don't understand what the takeaway is. Needs an executive summary.

How are sums and a few averages now statistics?

@xerpo Re commanders, you've not given an average though, all you've given is a total cost which can never be taken, so is a pointless figure that proves nothing.

Are these even statistics? They look like summations.

I do agree in principle that open ended assumptions are bad (Imperial squadrons are weaker than Rebel squadrons). Generally, those kinds of assumptions mean that the player is forgoing some portion of the critical thinking process and allowing the assumption to do their thinking for them. The end result is always misunderstanding the game.

That's a lot of data, but I wonder if you've got a player that is simply not thinking critically about the game at the level that they need to for improvement, that they would also not think critically about these statistics or would otherwise interpret them to support their own prior viewpoints.

And I'm left wondering how knowledge of any of this is supposed to make me a better player.

And I think data is the right word; you're not really to statistics yet.

15 minutes ago, slasher956 said:

@xerpo Re commanders, you've not given an average though, all you've given is a total cost which can never be taken, so is a pointless figure that proves nothing.

Im not trying to porve anything, honestly, just spitting some real numbers so people can take a true general idea about the basics when trying to build a fleet.

For the commanders average points just divide the number given by 9. Thats, in an ideal world, the points a rebel or an imperial player is invensting in his/her commander.

On a whole, Rebel ships are cheaper than the Imp counterparts. To make up for this, their squads are move expensive.

I'd be interested to see the difference in yaw values among the ships. I'm not sure how you can really account for that, but maybe grouping the ships based on how many double yaw vs single yaw they have on their speed chart?

Another neat fact. Rebels have an Evade on all their ships except for the MC80s. Not sure if it means anything, but combine that with the speed and yaw of Rebel ships, and it paints a picture of Rebel ships using their speed and evasion tactics over the brunt force of the Empire. Conversely, the Imp squads have more scatters and are in general faster than the Rebel squads, who would rather use brute force.

26 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Thats, in an ideal world, the points a rebel or an imperial player is invensting in his/her commander.

Yeah but it's not though, not really.

When I get Jerry I am not spending 26.2 points, I am spending 20. The difference could be between 1 and 6 different and useful upgrades. It also has no bearing on the value of that investment. If I'm using him in order to navigate in a squad-pushing fleet, he's far more useful than if I used him on occasion to supplement the movement arc of an ISD.
When I invest in Ackbar, I am not getting only 29.8 points worth for my 38 point investment. Again, the value of the commander is not quantifiable, and especially not when based on averages obtained from equating admirals of such varied abilities and purpose together and seeing their average cost. You must consider each one individually.

Averages really do seem meaningless in list-building. Sure, overall one side may have cheaper or more expensive squads, but so what? What list is gonna take 1 of every squad/ship? Rebels have more shields but less hull. Both count for the same amount of damage and shields are easier to recover. But again, how does that help me? If I take a CR90 swarm how is the fact that that my faction has an average of more shields going to help? The CR90s happen to have the second-lowest shields in-game, so that has no value to me.

When I build a list, I don't go thinking about averages - especially not of that type. I'm never gonna use them. I don't pay the average price, the ships don't go the average speed, nor will I get the average bonus from it - that depends on the game, my strategy, and my opponent. It is some nice data to have*, but I don't see how it's useful for fleet-building.

*While I don't see the practical use for it, for the sake of completion, you may want to add total/average dice rolled per ship/squad per faction, and perhaps even of which type, and then total/average defense tokens possessed per ship/squad per faction, and again of which type.

Hey, xerpo took his time and spent it in Star Wars Armada and is giving me some information, for good or bad, that I didn't have before! So I say thank-you!!

7 minutes ago, GhostofNobodyInParticular said:

Yeah but it's not though, not really.

When I get Jerry I am not spending 26.2 points, I am spending 20. The difference could be between 1 and 6 different and useful upgrades. It also has no bearing on the value of that investment. If I'm using him in order to navigate in a squad-pushing fleet, he's far more useful than if I used him on occasion to supplement the movement arc of an ISD.
When I invest in Ackbar, I am not getting only 29.8 points worth for my 38 point investment. Again, the value of the commander is not quantifiable, and especially not when based on averages obtained from equating admirals of such varied abilities and purpose together and seeing their average cost. You must consider each one individually.

Averages really do seem meaningless in list-building. Sure, overall one side may have cheaper or more expensive squads, but so what? What list is gonna take 1 of every squad/ship? Rebels have more shields but less hull. Both count for the same amount of damage and shields are easier to recover. But again, how does that help me? If I take a CR90 swarm how is the fact that that my faction has an average of more shields going to help? The CR90s happen to have the second-lowest shields in-game, so that has no value to me.

When I build a list, I don't go thinking about averages - especially not of that type. I'm never gonna use them. I don't pay the average price, the ships don't go the average speed, nor will I get the average bonus from it - that depends on the game, my strategy, and my opponent. It is some nice data to have*, but I don't see how it's useful for fleet-building.

*While I don't see the practical use for it, for the sake of completion, you may want to add total/average dice rolled per ship/squad per faction, and perhaps even of which type, and then total/average defense tokens possessed per ship/squad per faction, and again of which type.

I actually don't think any of it really matters. It's just fun facts about the game. Really the only thing you will notice is the point cost difference between the factions, which is especially true for the flotillas. But even then, you are stuck with only Imps or only Rebels, so looking at how cheap the other faction ships are is pointless.

2 minutes ago, The Rebel Fleet said:

Hey, xerpo took his time and spent it in Star Wars Armada and is giving me some information, for good or bad, that I didn't have before! So I say thank-you!!

Just now, Undeadguy said:

I actually don't think any of it really matters. It's just fun facts about the game. Really the only thing you will notice is the point cost difference between the factions, which is especially true for the flotillas. But even then, you are stuck with only Imps or only Rebels, so looking at how cheap the other faction ships are is pointless.

Indeed, xerpo's work wasn't necessarily in vain, nor do I intend to belittle it. I do think it is nice info to have. It is only that I do not see its use in fleet building, which was his main goal.

2 hours ago, xerpo said:


*For all the following numbers remember that rebels have 1 more ship in their rooster at the moment. Even acknowledging that, some statictics are quite blunt.

What kind of rooster do you use for storage and how do you get it to stay still? :P

(Sorry I couldn't resist, please don't kill me)

The squadron sums, particularly the sums of non-unique squadrons, don't really mean a lot. I'm not going to buy one of each Imperial squadron, I'm going to buy six TIE/LNs and a pair of Defenders. Average would be more useful there, but since most of these figures have relatively discrete data sets, medians and/or standard deviations would be appropriate almost everywhere you have an average. Those analyses are very useful to dig out whether or not an average is being skewed by the size or tilt of the data set, since the Rebel commanders are probably all nearer to their average than the Imperials, who have a bunch of cheapos (Ozzel, JJ, Motti, Tagge) and a couple hideously expensive ones (Vader, Tarkin). That would also help elucidate other smaller points in the figures, such as that the average space superiority Rebel squadron does have more hull than the average Imperial space superiority squadron, which is usually the point being made there. As a matter of fact, those limited figures appear to validate every assumption you set out to prove/disprove, so while @Vergilius and everyone else is right, open-ended assumptions are bad, the rules of thumb like that developed here on the forums are generally correct.

Edited by GiledPallaeon
Grammar

Average ships cost (every version)

Rebels: 62

Imps: 66

Average squadrons cost all together.

Imps: 16.3

Rebs: 16.6

Only regular squadrons (what a surprise! Seriously. )

Imps: 14

Rebs: 13

Only uniques + aces

Imps: 17.5

Rebs: 18.6

Only aces

Imps: 19.1

Rebs: 19.9

The only utility I see to fleet building is that the cheaper the more options cause more combinations available.

However it only works in a vacuum. You could have 100 possible fleets but it doesn't mean that all of them are good or even have sense.

EDIT: feel free to check it (I did it quickly) and to add to the op as you wish.

Edited by ovinomanc3r

The screaming reactions to a bunch of random data is hilarious.

I have plenty of data I'd want to remind people about. like 6/8 top worlds isn't enough to even recognize there's a problem. And ISDs shouldn't even have guns. Fact.

8 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

I have plenty of data I'd want to remind people about. like 6/8 top worlds isn't enough to even recognize there's a problem.

You mean Minnesota regionals.

And a problem isn't a problem if it ain't harming me. Cuz forums logic.

Not sure about ISDs and guns though. Wookiepedia says they got em. Guess the Imp weapons teams are incompetent :P

3 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

You mean Minnesota regionals.

And a problem isn't a problem if it ain't harming me. Cuz forums logic.

Not sure about ISDs and guns though. Wookiepedia says they got em. Guess the Imp weapons teams are incompetent :P

my Dude. Didn't you see the movies. Its all about the little guy. The little guy gots to win. The large ships never even shot once on camera. Really, they probably don't even have guns. Just rely on bullying squadrons to do their bidding /s

*queues up some good ol 1st scene of Star Wars ever.

Edited by Blail Blerg

The first ever shot in a Star Wars movie is an ISD shooting.

1 minute ago, Blail Blerg said:

my Dude. Didn't you see the movies. Its all about the little guy. The little guy gots to win. The large ships never even shot once on camera. Really, they probably don't even have guns. Just rely on bullying squadrons to do their bidding /s

*queues up some good ol 1st scene of Star Wars ever.

Pretty sure ANH opens with an ISD bullying a CR90 with some mild laser action. But otherwise yes, the OT doesn't show ISDs shooting very much.

24 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

The screaming reactions to a bunch of random data is hilarious.

You are good at hyperbole Blail. :)

6 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

On a whole, Rebel ships are cheaper than the Imp counterparts. To make up for this, their squads are move expensive.

I'd be interested to see the difference in yaw values among the ships. I'm not sure how you can really account for that, but maybe grouping the ships based on how many double yaw vs single yaw they have on their speed chart?

Another neat fact. Rebels have an Evade on all their ships except for the MC80s. Not sure if it means anything, but combine that with the speed and yaw of Rebel ships, and it paints a picture of Rebel ships using their speed and evasion tactics over the brunt force of the Empire. Conversely, the Imp squads have more scatters and are in general faster than the Rebel squads, who would rather use brute force.

I feel this is super important. What we seem to get away from when fleet building are the soft stats of a build. Numbers are nice to give an edge, but the game boils down to a good amount of skill, situational awareness, and (to a smaller degree) luck. I don't think I would mind taking a weaker attack if I had a stronger mobility like you see with a CR90. Honestly that is one of the crippling factors for the Hammerheads or a capital ship lumbering along at speed two with single clicks.

Back on topic though, I do not feel these numbers provide a solid guide for building (though it was never inferred to be as such) and I do not believe it shows some inherent weakness or flaw in the design. I personal don't want both sides having the same things or similar play styles. I need diversity. That is what brought me to this game to begin with.

As long as there is no major balance issues (Rhymer Ball, Reikan Zombies, you name it) then welcome the opportunities the variations give us to grow as players and learn to be strategic with the options we have.

So say we all! (Oops, wrong Fandom)