2 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:Whatever. It's taken me over 2 years to get to where I am in the game, which is slightly below average, fair to middling at best. (2-2 for 12 of 22 in recent Store Championship).
\
You should probably find something you're good at.
2 minutes ago, hawk32 said:
You should probably find something you're good at.
I'm having fun. The point is it's taking me a while to get better at the game, I'm putting in the hours necessary to improve. I'm not crying that an unreleased upgrade is too good and whining about it with dramatic posts about quitting.
1 hour ago, ViscerothSWG said:X-wing already has 2 starter sets exactly like he described.
They are NOT starter sets. They do not coax new players into the game; they simply happen to contain the 1st 2 ships released. If they are meant to be starter sets, they are now woefully outdated.
48 minutes ago, Azrapse said:If the game ends appealing only to "git gud" experts, the game is mortally wounded.
Agreed.
39 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:Learn to play the game. Learn to block. Learn to anticipate most of your opponent's options. Learn to set up the board with good obstacle selection and placement. Learn range control.
Learning takes time and effort, but if you do you will git gud.
The point is the new players currently need a lower point of access that allows them to get into the game without being instantly turned off. Then , they can get gud.
29 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:that way I can turn them into pink mist
Feed me more cannon fodder
59 minutes ago, Phoenix5454 said:If you don't like it drop out. Who cares.
26 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:Easy 200-0. Never saw him again. Haha, get good.
Yeah, you 2 are great ambassadors for the game.
"New to the game? Oh, boy, am I gonna curbstomp you til you bleed!! Not my fault you missed out on the last 10 Waves. . ."
Edited by Darth MeanieJust now, Darth Meanie said:The point is the new players currently need a lower point of access that allows them to get into the game without being instantly turned off. Then , they can get gud.
They have this, it's called 'Casual Play.' Try Heroes of Aturi Cluster, try scenarios, play with friends and family.
Buy a core set, the millennium falcon, buy Tie Advanced and Imperial Aces. That's plenty to have fun with pushing plastic around and going pew pew.
If you want to fly in tournaments then you have but one choice: GIT GUD. How do you git gud? Practice.
2 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:Yeah, you 2 are great ambassadors for the game.
I think SaltMaster, as Paragoomba Slayer before him, doesn't really agree with what he does, but does it anyway as a way to protest for the state of the game. I might be wrong, though, but it reminds me to The Comedian in Watchmen.
8 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:They have this, it's called 'Casual Play.' Try Heroes of Aturi Cluster, try scenarios, play with friends and family.
Buy a core set, the millennium falcon, buy Tie Advanced and Imperial Aces. That's plenty to have fun with pushing plastic around and going pew pew.
If you want to fly in tournaments then you have but one choice: GIT GUD. How do you git gud? Practice.
Aaaand there we have the lack of empathy again.You're saying that someone who can only play in his FLGS with people he doesn't know just gets shafted by FFG. Who organizes the HotAC for the new guy? Who brings the ships? Who prints everything? Who even tells him about it `? And for scenarios? What about lack of friends and family that are interested in the game?
You're fighting against windmills here. The problem is not arcdodging. And the problem is not tournaments for new players.
Edited by GreenDragoon9 minutes ago, Azrapse said:I think SaltMaster, as Paragoomba Slayer before him, doesn't really agree with what he does, but does it anyway as a way to protest for the state of the game. I might be wrong, though, but it reminds me to The Comedian in Watchmen.
I think He Who Shall Not Be Named just made a new account to start plaguing the forums once more.
I call bs. HE organizes the HOTAC with his friends and family. I didn't need someone to hold my hand to do it. If he's at FLGS on any day other than Store Championship or a monthly tournament he's good to go with his beginner stuff. Does he have internet? He's got Vassal.
What is OP (or you or your hypothetical newbie) trying to get out of the game?
28 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:They have this, it's called 'Casual Play.' Try Heroes of Aturi Cluster, try scenarios, play with friends and family
so hard to get casual play going. Put a call out for HotAC... me and my brother turn up. Put a call out for 100/6 "casual" me (Imperial), brother (Rebel) and 6 scum players turn up with tourney level lists. Honestly it can be exhausting trying to get the casual idea in people's heads. They just don't get it.
2 minutes ago, Sasajak said:so hard to get casual play going. Put a call out for HotAC...
Testify, brother. 20 players in my area profess interest in HotAC ... there are four slated to play. (And I'm not blaming them. Time is precious, and tournaments are fun (sometimes). Often you have to make a choice, and they make theirs. I'm just backing you up on how hard it is to play casually.)
29 minutes ago, Azrapse said:I think SaltMaster, as Paragoomba Slayer before him, doesn't really agree with what he does, but does it anyway as a way to protest for the state of the game . I might be wrong, though, but it reminds me to The Comedian in Watchmen.
Yeah, I agree. As I told him elsewhere, he's pretty spot on. . .when he isn't being a scoundrel.
31 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:They have this, it's called 'Casual Play.' Try Heroes of Aturi Cluster, try scenarios, play with friends and family.
Buy a core set, the millennium falcon, buy Tie Advanced and Imperial Aces. That's plenty to have fun with pushing plastic around and going pew pew.
If you want to fly in tournaments then you have but one choice: GIT GUD. How do you git gud? Practice.
23 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:Aaaand there we have the lack of empathy again.You're saying that someone who can only play in his FLGS with people he doesn't know just gets shafted by FFG. Who organizes the HotAC for the new guy? Who brings the ships? Who prints everything? Who even tells him about it `? And for scenarios? What about lack of friends and family that are interested in the game?
You're fighting against windmills here. The problem is not arcdodging. And the problem is not tournaments for new players.
Exactly @GreenDragoon . @BlodVargarna , how does a new player know to buy exactly those sets for the best balance? The "Core Set" is anything but core: it contains a bunch of weak ships with a bunch of upgrades that are antiquated and never played. Fudge, the damage deck is even out of date in the original core set!!! I actually have to agree with @SaltMaster 5000 here (!?) in that if new players think the CORE SET is a good place to start, they are screwed from the beginning. They get rulers, dice, and a steaming pile of OOD ships and cards.
I love the starviper, I loved Xixor and would love to see him canon. They'd have to tone down his 'pervy persuasion' pheremones though...
I was disapointed that the Viper was substandard as his ship but this new expansion will make HIS ship, the Virago, bat shoot crazy manouverable at a more reasonable cost. It will still be fragile and he'll never win a PS war. I think it's great that mid skill pilots are pushing the game forward. I came in three waves ago btw, end of wave seven.
In the example shown (OP) that pilot is PS 6, max 8 with veteran instincts. He's stressed with no focus. He's toast to multiple enemies or higher PS. It ain't complicated, it's just.... interesting, and give the ship an individual twist that makes it unique.
But they should errata the Virago now. Xixor or Guri only! None of these other upstarts are worthy!
7 minutes ago, Sasajak said:
I really have to blame FFG for this. They just don't truly support anything but the idea of 100/6 tournaments. You can't make it casual if you don't also make it NOT 100/6.
It would really be nice if some small and large ships were made "Epic Only." It would create a nice "casual scene" that literally differed from tournament bloodsport.
You and your brother are all you need for HOTAC.
1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:I really have to blame FFG for this.
They do nothing at all to support casual or even thematic play. 40k at the moment has a huge buzz... all around story and fluff from what I can gather not just 8th edition. This is the Star Wars universe and it should be buzzing with thematic events not 100/6 deathmatches. I never saw one of them in the movies. They always had things called objectives and cinematic woo hoos. FFG feed off the SW universe like Bor Gullet sucking on Bodhi Rook's brain. They need to give something back. The game needs a meta campaign in some far away sector.
Anyway long dayand ill health makes me more dramatic than usual. Good night and good luck.
The X-Wing Miniature Imperial Stater Set (Revised)
Contains:
1 TIE/ln (original trilogy)
1 TIE/FO (new trilogy)
1 TAP (Rebels)
1 TIE Defender (or Aggressor) (EU)
Includes dice, rules, the new damage deck, and an improved assortment of upgrade cards that are move relevant to the state of the game currently (e.g., LWF). Also includes new pilot cards* for ships that are unlikely to need enhancement soon (like 7th Sis and 4th Bro Inquisitors for the TAPs).
The X-Wing Miniature Rebel Stater Set (Revised)
Contains:
1 Y-Wing (original trilogy)
1 T-70 X Wing (new trilogy)
1 A-Wing (Rebels)
1 E-Wing (EU)
Includes dice, rules, the new damage deck, and an improved assortment of upgrade cards that are move relevant to the state of the game currently (e.g., TLT)Also includes new pilot cards* for ships that are unlikely to need enhancement soon (like Phoenix Squadron pilot, and a fix for the E-Wing).
*The new material is in there for 2 reasons:
For existing casual players who buy One Of Everything, there will be a fun incentive to pick this set up. For tournament players, they can be pissed as always that they need to buy an expansion for the one card that is tournament-worthy (
).
As an extra-extra incentive, maybe some of the ships (or all) are repaints.
Then, discontinue the Core Sets. They are OOD, not beginner friendly, and perhaps most importantly, not playable out of the box. Now, for a slightly higher price point ($60?) you buy the faction that interests you, get a friend to buy the other, and you both can zoom-zoom pew-pew until you decide you want more.
Edited by Darth Meanie56 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:Yeah, you 2 are great ambassadors for the game.
"New to the game? Oh, boy, am I gonna curbstomp you til you bleed!! Not my fault you missed out on the last 10 Waves. . ."
Thats not true at all, I've taken the time to show new people into the game and teach them everything about it. But they wanted to learn and get into it. I take no joy in playing against people of extensively lower skill and "curb stomping" them. I will however play extremely casual games with new or lower skill players to show them the ropes until they are up to speed. This game is not overly complicated once you know the basics, I for one am glad that FFG keeps throwing wrenches into the gears and adding all kinds of things to the game, it keeps it interesting and fresh. There's a learning curve with everything, you just have to have enough interest in the topic, hobby etc. to get over that curve. If you are unwilling too, then you're not really interested in the hobby for one reason or another and if thats the case there's nothing FFG can do to get your dollars anyways.
When you get to the point where the base complexity of the game chases any number of new players away from the game... The matter of how many players are being scared off is irrelevant. You have a symptom of failing to attract a group of otherwise interested players, some of who have already made their initial investment, and they are telling you the reason why is complexity. I took a break for a few waves and only came back out of goes things had changed with the latest FAQ. I had played from wave 1 through 8, had played in national level tournaments, and had beaten some of the best players in my region in tournaments repeatedly. And for me to come back and try to play again after the FAQ was like jumping in to a entirely new game, and it had only been TWO WAVES since I last played. It took me a solid month of regular practice and study to catch up. So I totally get how this guy said 'nah fam, I'm good, peace out'.
**** even giving that much effort to give this game a second chance I would still agree that the maneuvering of a ship is not nearly as important as the ship and it's upgrades.
But hey, OP, come join Armada. Or Imperial Assault skirmish. Both those games have a fair bit of complexity but I would still say they can be digested and easily joined. Failing that, and I can't believe if say this in a thousands years, but Warhammer 40k 8th edition is pretty good.
2 hours ago, Sasajak said:They do nothing at all to support casual or even thematic play. This is the Star Wars universe and it should be buzzing with thematic events not 100/6 deathmatches. I never saw one of them in the movies. They always had things called objectives and cinematic woo hoos. FFG feed off the SW universe like Bor Gullet sucking on Bodhi Rook's brain. They need to give something back. The game needs a meta campaign in some far away sector.
^This. Put the Star Wars back in XWM.
2 hours ago, Phoenix5454 said:Thats not true at all, I've taken the time to show new people into the game and teach them everything about it. But they wanted to learn and get into it. I take no joy in playing against people of extensively lower skill and "curb stomping" them. I will however play extremely casual games with new or lower skill players to show them the ropes until they are up to speed. This game is not overly complicated once you know the basics, I for one am glad that FFG keeps throwing wrenches into the gears and adding all kinds of things to the game, it keeps it interesting and fresh. There's a learning curve with everything, you just have to have enough interest in the topic, hobby etc. to get over that curve. If you are unwilling too, then you're not really interested in the hobby for one reason or another and if thats the case there's nothing FFG can do to get your dollars anyways.
I don't think the OP didn't want to learn. The OP was quickly overwhelmed. And if FFG wants to get their dollars (and you should want them to, for the health of our hobby), FFG needs to find a better entry point product. 101 articles are cute, but there needs to be a POP product that a saleperson can pick up, talk up, and cash out to get new players into the game immediately, without experienced players gently not curb-stomping them.
Edited by Darth MeanieThe game has definitely got a lot more complicated and there are so many balence issues now that yeah, competitive play us no longer fun for me in the standard format.
There are, however, other ways to play and other formats. I've developed a love of Escalation. I want to play some Epic. HotAC beefs rolling out. There are plenty of options to enjoy the game, but like the OP I don't think I'll be travelling to SCs and Regionals this year.
8 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:I don't think the OP didn't want to learn. The OP was quickly overwhelmed.
Exactly. My buddy was, for some time, a playtester for X-Wing, and now he can bring himself to play only HotAC. (Well, he's also going to play Shuttle Tyderium's narrative event at GenCon.) He simply doesn't feel like he can reasonably play the game in a competitive (even casually competitive) fashion, because of the complexity- and power-creep. He's a reasonably smart dude, but he feels overwhelmed by X-Wing.
I have to admit that my ability to keep everything straight has eroded. Five waves ago, nobody knew the rules better. Now, if somebody asked me what "the opportunity to attack" means, all I know is that they're wondering because of Feedback Array or Blinded Pilot or some other upgrade, and that the answer differs from card to card, arbitrarily AFAICT. All I can say is, "Check the FAQ, somewhere between page 1 and page 89." I haven't been able to keep everything in my head for non-list-builder theory-crafting since Wave 4.
"Overwhelmed" is exactly the right word.
FFG needs to do something to re-tether the game. My personal hope is for 2.0. But FFG needs to do something .
7 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:Exactly. My buddy was, for some time, a playtester for X-Wing, and now he can bring himself to play only HotAC. (Well, he's also going to play Shuttle Tyderium's narrative event at GenCon.) He simply doesn't feel like he can reasonably play the game in a competitive (even casually competitive) fashion, because of the complexity- and power-creep. He's a reasonably smart dude, but he feels overwhelmed by X-Wing.
I have to admit that my ability to keep everything straight has eroded. Five waves ago, nobody knew the rules better. Now, if somebody asked me what "the opportunity to attack" means, all I know is that they're wondering because of Feedback Array or Blinded Pilot or some other upgrade, and that the answer differs from card to card, arbitrarily AFAICT. All I can say is, "Check the FAQ, somewhere between page 1 and page 89." I haven't been able to keep everything in my head for non-list-builder theory-crafting since Wave 4.
"Overwhelmed" is exactly the right word.
FFG needs to do something to re-tether the game. My personal hope is for 2.0. But FFG needs to do something .
Many posts here imply that 'too much complexity' is a problem for beginning players. But it's not. I see it more as a matter of taste. Some like figuring out how they can bypass the restrictions on Snap Shot, some don't. The first kind of people welcome the complexity, like an accountant welcomes a question about mortgages. The second kind sees these 'puzzles' as impediments to playing the game ('OMG it's yet another one of those guys taking effectively three actions without stress') It's a matter of talent and taste, and really hard to argue about. It also is not about 'getting good'.
The game has evolved in a direction where the appeal it had to some in the beginning is dissolving. So I don't see a starter set as a solution, assuming such a set is really aimed at novice players. But at the same time, looking at other games, keeping players with different tastes on board is hard to do and I do not claim to know how FFG is supposed to achieve that.
1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:
I don't think the OP didn't want to learn. The OP was quickly overwhelmed. And if FFG wants to get their dollars (and you should want them to, for the health of our hobby), FFG needs to find a better entry point product. 101 articles are cute, but there needs to be a POP product that a saleperson can pick up, talk up, and cash out to get new players into the game immediately, without experienced players gently not curb-stomping them.
A learning curve can be overwhelming, but the interest is what pushes you through it.
When I first got into this, I didn't even have the core set, I bought the Millennium Falcon & Slave 1 to use as display models, but once I opened the packs and looked at all the cards etc. my interest was peaked. So I watched FFGs original youtube video on the basics of the game and that's how I learned the basics, reading the rules did nothing for me, the videos helped me get my bearings in the game. Soon after I bought the OT core set and many $$$ later here I am.
Maybe the answer for people like the OP isn't a 2.0, but video tutorials on specific situations done in the same format as the basics video. I personally enjoy, running through scenarios with new upgrades, pilot abilities etc. and see how they fit in the game but I guess some people just need things handed to them?
1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:
I don't think the OP didn't want to learn. The OP was quickly overwhelmed. And if FFG wants to get their dollars (and you should want them to, for the health of our hobby), FFG needs to find a better entry point product. 101 articles are cute, but there needs to be a POP product that a saleperson can pick up, talk up, and cash out to get new players into the game immediately, without experienced players gently not curb-stomping them.
One of the few positives of wave 5 Turretwing BS is that it was easy for new players to get into. Buy 2 ships and a core set, buy an extra VI or whatever off of someone, and there you go.
Not only from a price perspective, but gameplay too. When everyone is also flying turrets, the game gets real dumbed down and is 100% basic assessment at that point. It's easier for a new player to get up to speed.
1 hour ago, Verlaine said:Many posts here imply that 'too much complexity' is a problem for beginning players. But it's not.
I beg to differ. If you want to become a mechanic, you start with a single-stroke lawnmower engine, not a ram-jet turboprop with afterburner.