47 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Dalan is not that big of a deal.

Learn how to overcome these gimmicks with basic skills, i.e. blocking etc.

An academy TIE can solve Dalan.

I think you didn't understand. Dalan is not the problem, and neither are other gimmicks.

The problem is the sheer number and especially new combintions of different gimmicks

6 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The problem is the sheer number and especially new combintions of different gimmicks

*shrugs* that's only a problem if you view it as a problem. Personally I view it as an opportunity. With so many combinations, so many options and abilities, you can tailor the list you fly to how you like to play the game, and never have to fly the same list twice if you don't want to.

You don't need to know how every upgrade and every pilot and every interaction in the game works (although obviously it helps if you want to be World Champion), you just need to know how YOUR pilots and YOUR upgrades and YOUR interactions work. If you want to play a simple game, fly a simple squad. Make it work for you.

12 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I think you didn't understand. Dalan is not the problem, and neither are other gimmicks.

The problem is the sheer number and especially new combintions of different gimmicks

Again, just git gud. You can beat gimmicks with good flying and simple tactics.

13 hours ago, Phoenix5454 said:

If you're quitting why are you posting here? Are you expecting someone to convince you otherwise? Sounds like you should stick to chess if you cant grasp table top games with ever changing variables.

This is a silly post, like you took it personally this guy is complaining. Which seems childish.

I get it, you like the game. I'm not even saying this guy is right, but these reactions are ridiculous. Chess, for what it's worth, is hard. 'Can't grasp' is a presumption on your part. People have preferences. You like ever expanding games, he doesn't when it comes down to this.

That doesn't make you a better human being, sorry.

(as an aside, that firefly maneuver is a really very particular situation. I have complaints about some of the nonsense added, and that's already been added, but it isn't based on these rather unique things that happen.)

I'm really confused. How on earth could FFG ever keep this a simple game and keep it from becoming stale? I mean, new ships would come out with slightly different stat lines and dials...but with additional waves comes additional upgrade cards and actions/mechanics as well, so there will be increasing complexity. You can eliminate new mechanics and limit upgrade cards, or stop making new waves, but that sounds like it would get boring quickly. There is a learning curve, but its not that terrible compared to many other miniature or card games.

1 minute ago, dsul413 said:

How on earth could FFG ever keep this a simple game and keep it from becoming stale?

Fair point. Let's say: by offering different game modes and actively participating in the community to try to ensure that 100/6 is not the vast majority played in stores and hence for most players?

7 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Again, just git gud. You can beat gimmicks with good flying and simple tactics.

At this point you have to do that intentionally

10 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

*shrugs* that's only a problem if you view it as a problem. Personally I view it as an opportunity. With so many combinations, so many options and abilities, you can tailor the list you fly to how you like to play the game, and never have to fly the same list twice if you don't want to.

You don't need to know how every upgrade and every pilot and every interaction in the game works (although obviously it helps if you want to be World Champion), you just need to know how YOUR pilots and YOUR upgrades and YOUR interactions work. If you want to play a simple game, fly a simple squad. Make it work for you.

That post shows a severe lack of empathy!

Did it ever occurr to you that many players only have stores to play at? Where they will play 100/6? And where their opponents did bring few lists, strong enough to have fun?

so if this hypothetical person were to play these people, how would that go? How much fun do they have when completely obliterated? Pitched against cards they've never seen? Trying to understand the interactions and synergies of the combowing? And then trying to remember them every single turn?

Personally I do not have a problem with that, I'm more intrigued and curious. But I know people who do have a problem with it.

X-wing once was about jousting and got more complex over time. Do you really lack the ability to understand how there can be players that preferred the older version? Or do you simply not care? I assume it's the latter.

Now why should we care? Because a more complex game, and one that's exclusively that complex, draws in less players and different kinds of players.

I'm not saying the complexity is bad. I'm saying that FFG and the community would be wiser to offer alternatice modes with lower complexity - and made sure that they are widely played!

2 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

That post shows a severe lack of empathy!

If you say so, but it appears you've totally missed the point. Ergo - you do not need to know, be aware of or understand every single combination in the entire game to have fun, or even to play competitively for that matter. You just need to know how to fly your own list, understand the interactions it contains, and practice.

Look at Dallas Parker for example. He flies the TIE Swarm to an incredibly high standard against all comers, and the total number of interactions he fields pretty much start and end with Howlrunner and Crack Shot. I myself flew 5 Kihraxz for a good percentage of last year, both casually and competitively, and did pretty well with them as well.

It's not insensitive or uncaring to say "Find something that you enjoy flying, learn how to use it and practice until it works for you", it's simple common sense.

And as with anything, the more you put in, the more you'll get out.

I feel sometimes the same as the thread opener. This game has become more and more about action-efficiently super ships (doing like virtual 3-4 actions per round) - and SOME of them can´t even stopped when you block them (Expertise,K4, GC Dengar). Some are nearly impossible to block (BB-8 and Advanced Sensors).

Back in the days the game was not decided in the first round of shooting. I can´t tell how often my Vessery with D-Title was EXTERMINATED in the first round of shooting. When somebody then tells me: "Sure, you ONLY had one Focus and only 4 Greens (Range 3)! What else did you expect ?" I could sometimes jump in their faces. And in this game of super efficiency you are not allowed to loose such a important ship in the first shooting round. The rest of the squad can only win by luck.

Sometimes I wish the old days back with each one just having ONE.... or at MOST TWO actions.

3 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Fair point. Let's say: by offering different game modes and actively participating in the community to try to ensure that 100/6 is not the vast majority played in stores and hence for most players?

At this point you have to do that intentionally

That post shows a severe lack of empathy!

Did it ever occurr to you that many players only have stores to play at? Where they will play 100/6? And where their opponents did bring few lists, strong enough to have fun?

so if this hypothetical person were to play these people, how would that go? How much fun do they have when completely obliterated? Pitched against cards they've never seen? Trying to understand the interactions and synergies of the combowing? And then trying to remember them every single turn?

Personally I do not have a problem with that, I'm more intrigued and curious. But I know people who do have a problem with it.

X-wing once was about jousting and got more complex over time. Do you really lack the ability to understand how there can be players that preferred the older version? Or do you simply not care? I assume it's the latter.

Now why should we care? Because a more complex game, and one that's exclusively that complex, draws in less players and different kinds of players.

I'm not saying the complexity is bad. I'm saying that FFG and the community would be wiser to offer alternatice modes with lower complexity - and made sure that they are widely played!

So we have different game modes now, right? Epic and HoTAC are the two most popular, but we see theatrical tournaments or Waves 1-3 only tournaments popping up now. I agree with you by the way, but to your point: how do we/FFG ensure that 100/6 is not the vast majority of games played? I mean, the option is there for any player to play any format they want right now (points, ships/upgrades allowed, obstacles, size of the playmat, whatever). Do we release rule books in the core set for game variants other than 100/6?

Under the assumption that 100/6 is being played, the way we get around the problem you highlight for opponents of new players is pretty straightforward; don't be a community of assholes to new players. I had two friends with me at our local store last weekend, and while two of us were playing our group was approached by a player who was interested in learning and asked about how active the scene is in the local area. My friend offerred to play with him, set up a list for both guys, and they had a blast while learning the game. He didn't play his best list, and he spent a lot of the game explaining mechanics. The guy he was teaching had the core set at home and had some understanding of the game, but he left with a better understanding of the game, had fun, and said he's planning on getting more involved.

My friend did it right, and not something I had thought much about before (I'm fairly reserved usually, while he is not).

6 hours ago, Azrapse said:

I have seen this reaction so many times.

A newbie comes with his just acquired ships, B-wings, A-wings, X-wings... Then he plays how the manual taught him to. Plan a maneuver, then move, then do an action.

Then he is crushed by the ships and upgrades that laugh at his naive play-by-the-book skills.
Wait for him to move, then reposition, token up, and release a double modified 5 dice attack at round 2 that volatilizes half his squadron.

Deer eyes looking at the spotlights. "What the **** was that? Are we even playing the same game?"

And this is why games like this eventually reach a critical mass where a beginner's version is needed. Which is not a bad thing. The beginner's version is accessible and easily to learn; the experienced version heaps on the options and upgrades to add depth.

Maybe that's what we should start thinking of Waves 1-3 as: XWM for new players. The main ships, mostly naked of upgrades, setting dials and chucking dice.

If you want to "go pro," start buying the ship's that aren't in the movies and add the Scum faction.

More importantly, FFG needs to start thinking this way. There are a lot of people who post who want to start the game and are just lost/overwhelmed/unsure. It's only going to get worse as time goes on. There needs to be an accessible, obvious beginner set that let's people start playing without wondering just what they heck are they supposed to buy.

The Core Set is not that beast. They need to come out with a beginners set that states right on the box "Hey, you're new? Buy me first." The set not only teaches the game but talks about larger game too: adding upgrades, titles, special maneuvers, etc. Then theme it to be from a current Star Wars franchise like "Rebels" and include the ships from the show which would be new to old and new players alike. And maybe it includes more than 3 ships. . .make it $101 and have enough materials in it you could only ever buy that box and still play XWM at 100 points per side.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

And this is why games like this eventually reach a critical mass where a beginner's version is needed. Which is not a bad thing. The beginner's version is accessible and easily to learn; the experienced version heaps on the options and upgrades to add depth.

Maybe that's what we should start thinking of Waves 1-3 as: XWM for new players. The main ships, mostly naked of upgrades, setting dials and chucking dice.

If you want to "go pro," start buying the ship's that aren't in the movies and add the Scum faction.

More importantly, FFG needs to start thinking this way. There are a lot of people who post who want to start the game and are just lost/overwhelmed/unsure. It's only going to get worse as time goes on. There needs to be an accessible, obvious beginner set that let's people start playing without wondering just what they heck are they supposed to buy.

The Core Set is not that beast. They need to come out with a beginners set that states right on the box "Hey, you're new? Buy me first." The set not only teaches the game but talks about larger game too: adding upgrades, titles, special maneuvers, etc. Then theme it to be from a current Star Wars franchise like "Rebels" and include the ships from the show which would be new to old and new players alike. And maybe it includes more than 3 ships. . .make it $101 and have enough materials in it you could only ever buy that box and still play XWM at 100 points per side.

I love the idea of a beginner's set.

The photo showing that crazy maneuver is done in a space vacuum.

In practice, space is full of clutter like asteroids and debris (but not, as some postulate incorrectly, aether). The likely hood of that scenario playing out is extremely unlikely based on available space on the map in which to perform it. You're either jousting along an edge or dead center inside the asteroid circle in the center of the map.

As the starviper isn't a jousting ship, you're more likely pulling that maneuver to get back into an attack vector after strafing the enemy ship(s) last turn.

I haven't played in over a year now and haven't bought a ship since wave 8. There are a lot of interactions to learn to be competitive again, but when I'm ready to play again I'll pick my list and ask questions of my opponents when they bring something not familiar with.

The community is friendly and helpful. They aren't here to scare anyone off. Ask for help. Ask for advice. Just don't ask for a do-over in a competitive event.

38 minutes ago, dsul413 said:

I love the idea of a beginner's set.

You mean like a "Starter Set" featuring recognizable ships from the movies with simplified rules and fun scenarios?

5 hours ago, Phoenix5454 said:

Yeah I read the whole whiny post.

Waiting for a X-wing 2.0 because you can't handle that the game has evolved and has actually become interesting is just illogical. Why bother?

Because XWM is a "living game" and if it does not attract new players it is a "dead game." If you give a **** about this game as your personal hobby, you should be interested whether new people can get on board or not.

7 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

In other words:

Git Gud

And if their first experience of XWM is like choking on a turd biscuit?

2 hours ago, BlodVargarna said:

You mean like a "Starter Set" featuring recognizable ships from the movies with simplified rules and fun scenarios?

Exactly. M:TG got to that point, and XWM will (or has), too.

If everyone playing the game is an experienced player only, FFG has 2 choices:

A: Stop reprinting old ships, because everyone playing already has them.

B: Attract new players.

(B) is by far the better option for both FFG and old players.

16 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

the game is so riddled with cancer like this and other types of cancer that it's literally not possible to enjoy it competitively without using cancer yourself in order to have a fighting chance.

Or you can stop bathing in the radiation of 100/6.

HotAC, Missions and Epic play offer SPF 50+. Guaranteed. C'mon in, the water's fine!!

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

Exactly. M:TG got to that point, and XWM will (or has), too.

If everyone playing the game is an experienced player only, FFG has 2 choices:

A: Stop reprinting old ships, because everyone playing already has them.

B: Attract new players.

(B) is by far the better option for both FFG and old players.

X-wing already has 2 starter sets exactly like he described. And ace boxes with 2 ships each to add to each of those core factions.

Releasing a new starter set every year would be like what SWG did at the end (...and I was suckered into buying 2 of them for the free in game gifts). It oversaturates the game with seemingly required content to irk existing players for minimal player base gains. At least the last new starter set boasted a new damage deck. They aren't likely to do that again, and they aren't making new maneuvers, so barring acrylics in the box, you're looking at 1 copy of 1 new upgrade card for existing players to pine over (assuming it's worth using) ...it'll never make it to a second printing as such.

The 101 series article releases are what will help attract and retain new players. They need to be led to those articles and to the forums better before/after their first purchase. They need more demo stuffs, and more OP formats to entice players. Let's see some scenario based demo kits, coop missions, and the like.

4 hours ago, KelRiever said:

This is a silly post, like you took it personally this guy is complaining. Which seems childish.

I get it, you like the game. I'm not even saying this guy is right, but these reactions are ridiculous. Chess, for what it's worth, is hard. 'Can't grasp' is a presumption on your part. People have preferences. You like ever expanding games, he doesn't when it comes down to this.

That doesn't make you a better human being, sorry.

(as an aside, that firefly maneuver is a really very particular situation. I have complaints about some of the nonsense added, and that's already been added, but it isn't based on these rather unique things that happen.)

Didn't say chess was easy just that it never changes meaning nothing else will be added to it ever.

Never claimed "I'm a better human being" which I'm not sure how that even applies here.

Just sick of people ******* about the game. If you don't like it drop out. Who cares. The only thing "silly" here is wasting time responding to your post.

@Darth Meanie oh I give *****, I give lots of *****!

Say whatever, but I believe that guy from M:TG, Mark Rosewater, when he said that "Your player base is really good at detecting when something is wrong with your game".

We are so into the game that we can no longer see the bigger picture. When fresher eyes share with us their feedback about things not feeling right, we shouldn't dismiss them with "git gud" comments.

If the game ends appealing only to "git gud" experts, the game is mortally wounded.

6 minutes ago, Azrapse said:

Say whatever, but I believe that guy from M:TG, Mark Rosewater, when he said that "Your player base is really good at detecting when something is wrong with your game".

We are so into the game that we can no longer see the bigger picture. When fresher eyes share with us their feedback about things not feeling right, we shouldn't dismiss them with "git gud" comments.

If the game ends appealing only to "git gud" experts, the game is mortally wounded.

I'm sorry (not sorry) but complaining that a particular ship has just too many repositioning options and throwing your hands in the air and giving up really only deserves to be answered with git gud.

Learn to play the game. Learn to block. Learn to anticipate most of your opponent's options. Learn to set up the board with good obstacle selection and placement. Learn range control.

Learning takes time and effort, but if you do you will git gud.

58 minutes ago, ViscerothSWG said:

X-wing already has 2 starter sets exactly like he described. And ace boxes with 2 ships each to add to each of those core factions.

Releasing a new starter set every year would be like what SWG did at the end (...and I was suckered into buying 2 of them for the free in game gifts). It oversaturates the game with seemingly required content to irk existing players for minimal player base gains. At least the last new starter set boasted a new damage deck. They aren't likely to do that again, and they aren't making new maneuvers, so barring acrylics in the box, you're looking at 1 copy of 1 new upgrade card for existing players to pine over (assuming it's worth using) ...it'll never make it to a second printing as such.

The 101 series article releases are what will help attract and retain new players. They need to be led to those articles and to the forums better before/after their first purchase. They need more demo stuffs, and more OP formats to entice players. Let's see some scenario based demo kits, coop missions, and the like.

What they need to be told is to fly a Striker, Carnor, and 3 TIE Fighters that way I can turn them into pink mist with my Deadeye Homing Missile Scurggs.

Feed me more cannon fodder, continue to trick new players into wasting money on C- lists.

4 hours ago, FTS Gecko said:

It's not insensitive or uncaring to say "Find something that you enjoy flying, learn how to use it and practice until it works for you", it's simple common sense.

It is, though, if used as answer to "it's too complicated to me!". I have exhaustive experience with that sentiment, even if limited to few people.
It's not that they don't know their own list - it's the various possibilities that their opponents' lists offer. And most of all it's when playing the game becomes a chore instead of a fun pastime. Extensive combinations or number of upgrades evoke that feeling. And here's the tricky part: It doesn't matter whether they are right or not! Percieved complexity is exactly that - percieved and hence subjective !
You know what happened once overall complexity went over a certain, completely personal, threshold? Even previously ok squads or ship builds became suddenly "too complex". My point here is that this feeling is not necessarily rational, even though there is a rational (i.e. measurable) part to it.

4 hours ago, dsul413 said:

So we have different game modes now, right?

Not officially supported. Could be "campaign tournament" like the @heychadwick and his crew are doing. Could be a campaign like HotAC did. Could be proper epic tournaments. But FFG only supports 100/6 competitive tournaments and hopes that the community provides the rest.

4 hours ago, dsul413 said:

how do we/FFG ensure that 100/6 is not the vast majority of games played? I mean, the option is there for any player to play any format they want right now (points, ships/upgrades allowed, obstacles, size of the playmat, whatever). Do we release rule books in the core set for game variants other than 100/6?

FFG can spotlight modes, but that's not enough. They would have to actively participate in the community. Communication and interaction with your community is something that even RedBull does better! It's mind-blowing how much the community does, from guides to blogs to youtube to podcasts to freaking listjuggler&meta-wing! And then there's even HotAC and now the amazing mode by the shuttle tydirium. I mean, come on FFG! It's getting embarassing! A company in 2017 can't just release thinly veiled product advertisment (we call them previews), sometimes invite guest authors, and that's it for communication. They have one of the best franchises ever, with a booming game that blew up way beyond their expectations if rumors are true. At some point they have to make the business decision whether they try to go for a medium/long run or whether they try to press out the maximum in a short time. And the latter is not really an option if they want to continue with other games after they milked X-wing.

I don't think the community should have to provide more. But I also think FFG won't. And that's way more frustrating than a less balanced game. Luckily there's still a great community, but...

4 hours ago, dsul413 said:

Under the assumption that 100/6 is being played, the way we get around the problem you highlight for opponents of new players is pretty straightforward; don't be a community of assholes to new players.

yes, absolutely. And then we get this thread where OP, a new player, get's completely trashed because he's frustrated with the complexity?
He got called lazy, told to read the fu**ing card, he's not able to grasp the game and should not post here, the game isn't for him, told that this game is "ludicrously simple", asked why he is still here, and to "git gud".

What. The.

14 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

I'm sorry (not sorry) but complaining that a particular ship has just too many repositioning options and throwing your hands in the air and giving up really only deserves to be answered with git gud.

Learn to play the game. Learn to block. Learn to anticipate most of your opponent's options. Learn to set up the board with good obstacle selection and placement. Learn range control.

Learning takes time and effort, but if you do you will git gud.

Yeah, this is what I should have told my opponent with BBBBZ when he played against my Commonwealth Defenders. Easy 200-0. Never saw him again. Haha, get good.

The whole point of this game is to fly broken stuff while telling your opponent how not broken it is and that's it's their fault for not being good enough.

2 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

I'm sorry (not sorry) but complaining that a particular ship has just too many repositioning options and throwing your hands in the air and giving up really only deserves to be answered with git gud.

Learn to play the game. Learn to block. Learn to anticipate most of your opponent's options. Learn to set up the board with good obstacle selection and placement. Learn range control.

Learning takes time and effort, but if you do you will git gud.

Instead of saying "git gud" you could tell them how to do all of that with their B-wings, X-wings, A-wings... You know? Teach them. Build up community.
But you can't because most of those ships just can't. For the same point cost (and purchase price) than other ships that can.
What you need to tell them then is that he is going nowhere with those ships he bought. He needs to buy the latest ships from the latest faction because everything else has been left behind by accretion and power creep, and the devs have said they have no plans of bringing them back in line with some much other new content that is coming.

Then he will tell you that it feels wrong that some stuff is so much better than some other stuff just because. That it doesn't feel right. That it doesn't feel like the game should be.

He will think... What is the point of all those ships he bought and core mechanics he learned, if the later stuff just throws all of that over the board and is plainly the better choice most of the time. Why putting effort on playing with what is subpar when what really works is to jump on the bandwagon of the meta and use and reuse what is just broken?

Then he will realize that is precisely the meaning of the "git gud" expression.

Whatever. It's taken me over 2 years to get to where I am in the game, which is slightly below average, fair to middling at best. (2-2 for 12 of 22 in recent Store Championship).

My first tournament I was destroyed, same as second tournament.

When I play with friends I win about 50%. On Vassal less than 50%. Do I get frustrated? Yes, but with myself.

But I am getting better from playing more. I'm trying to Git Gud by actually putting in the time to get there.

Comining into the game, making one of your first posts whining about how the new Star Viper pilot can dance around the board and declaring you are quitting the game is lame.

GIT GUD man! Learn to fly better. Get on Vassal, you can fly every ship in the game with every upgrade for $0.

At the FLGS on X wing night ask if your opponent is cool with proxies to try upgrades and ships you don't own. Play with your friends and kids at home. Practice moving your ships around the mat when you are by yourself.

Don't buy a game and expect to be good at it right away that's ridiculous.