I played in (and came gloriously last in!) a theatrical-cut league recently. I'm a newbie, and I knew that I was going to get my *** kicked. Even so, trimming the game down to 'Wave 1-3' gave me a way in, a sort-of-level playing field.

The game as a whole is just way too complex now. Balance issues aside, I think the game's lost the basic idea of 'I pick a smarter move than you, so I can shoot you better'.

Look at that. That isn't 'I out-thought you', that's 'I have so many options you can't win'. If I picked a poor maneuver (the original bank-1-r), you should get a shot on me!

Gonna proxy a bunch of stuff, gonna play some HotAC and paint up some awesome X's and Y's. I was never going to be a competitive must-buy-everything player, but the current game feels more and more outside of my reach. I hope there's some sort of 2.0 campaign box soon.

Play the way you enjoy, but let's not point a gun at our foot and talk about how much it hurts before we even fire it. We haven't even seen the ship in the image you are referencing in the wild yet.

Having said that, there is plenty complexity in the game, but for many that just adds depth. For others not so much. A simpler, campaign like version of the game would likely be a great sell for FFG for this reason.

This game has 11 waves and I've been playing since since wave 3. The complexity isn't a problem, it's a welcome addition to the game.

Power creep is a problem, but that's largely an independent issue from complexity, albeit Jumpmaster and Jumpmaster II (Scurgg) have been problems with their access to many different exotic and complex abilities.

Complexity isn't an issue. If it is for you, just rtfc.

Complexity isn't an issue for you . As you said, you're an expert of the game - what you see as a welcome stretching of the rules is a lot more intimidating for those with less experience.

It's been possible to escape a bad move ever since the days of Wave 1. The only reason you're freaking out is that the Viper is doing it in a more dramatic fashion than what you're used to.

You could replace the Viper in that image with a bog-standard TIE Fighter (except doing a bank-2 instead of a bank-1, of course), and he'd simply shrug, barrel roll right-forward, and also escape punishment. In Wave 2 you could replace the Viper with any ship with access to boost and it would also shrug, boost any direction it wanted, and escape punishment. In Wave 3 you could make the Viper an Advanced Sensor B-wing who would simply smile, barrel roll back-left, then move in and we'd have the same end result, if not exact position, as the image.

To clarify: if you play with only two pieces available (x-w vs TIE/ln), you can reasonably predict the move your opponent will take. So, you plan for their taking that move, and vice-versa. With a few more pieces ('theatrical cut' ships) you abstract a bit - a TIE/b is heavy, can't turn too fast, a TIE/in can turn on a dime. You get a feel for what they can do.

With experience, that becomes second nature, and you can expand the range of possibilities - the complexities introduced in later waves.

The problem is that a new player doesn't have that experience, they don't know the sort of moves a Lambda shuttle can pull off vs an Upsilon shuttle.

I'm not saying that you're wrong for wanting a more complex game now that you've mastered the basics, just that the more options you add in the harder it is for new players to catch up. Power creep doesn't help, agreed, but it's the sheer range of possibilities that are making the game increasingly hard to approach.

If you're quitting why are you posting here? Are you expecting someone to convince you otherwise? Sounds like you should stick to chess if you cant grasp table top games with ever changing variables.

8 minutes ago, DR4CO said:

It's been possible to escape a bad move ever since the days of Wave 1. The only reason you're freaking out is that the Viper is doing it in a more dramatic fashion than what you're used to.

You could replace the Viper in that image with a bog-standard TIE Fighter (except doing a bank-2 instead of a bank-1, of course), and he'd simply shrug, barrel roll right-forward, and also escape punishment. In Wave 2 you could replace the Viper with any ship with access to boost and it would also shrug, boost any direction it wanted, and escape punishment. In Wave 3 you could make the Viper an Advanced Sensor B-wing who would simply smile, barrel roll back-left, then move in and we'd have the same end result, if not exact position, as the image.

While I don't agree with everything @petrol blue is saying here, I do want to point out that the major difference between those examples and what is happening here with the new and improved Viper is that not only did Dalan avoid being in a bad position, it has actually dialed in a bad move, but then reversed the situation that not only is it out of arc to avoid attack, but it has the enemy in its arc now, completely reversing the situation. In your examples:

1. The TIE Fighter would be out of arc, but not able to attack. It escaped, but did not turn around to take the offense.
2. A boosting ship would also escape arc, but just like the TIE/ln, it would not have an arc of attack on the enemy.
3. An AdvSen B-Wing would be able to roll back resulting in them being in arc of each other. Not escaping punishment, but keeping a shot of its own, evening things out.

All of those examples are far from being able to dial a bad move, and then completely flip the situation to not only avoid being shot, but actually getting the enemy in arc to punish them for having the gall of flying a TIE/x1 in today's meta.

3 minutes ago, petrol blue said:

To clarify: if you play with only two pieces available (x-w vs TIE/ln), you can reasonably predict the move your opponent will take. So, you plan for their taking that move, and vice-versa. With a few more pieces ('theatrical cut' ships) you abstract a bit - a TIE/b is heavy, can't turn too fast, a TIE/in can turn on a dime. You get a feel for what they can do.

With experience, that becomes second nature, and you can expand the range of possibilities - the complexities introduced in later waves.

The problem is that a new player doesn't have that experience, they don't know the sort of moves a Lambda shuttle can pull off vs an Upsilon shuttle.

Of course a new player won't have that experience; they're new . They need to play the game and learn these things from the experienced players. It's completely unrealistic and, honestly, bloody lazy to expect that you can just pick up the game and fight on equal footing with someone who's invested months or years into it.

4 minutes ago, Phoenix5454 said:

If you're quitting why are you posting here? Are you expecting someone to convince you otherwise? Sounds like you should stick to chess if you cant grasp table top games with ever changing variables.

You didn't even read the post did you?

He's not quitting, he's getting out of the competitive scene and playing hotac and waiting for a campaign box.

I made the post because I love the core concept of the game - I'd really like FFG to at least be able to see a newbie's reasons for not carrying on with the game. I'm not expecting to set the world on fire, but if no-one raises their concerns then they can't be solved.

I'm not freaking out, or flipping the table or anything, just that this is FFG's community board, so I figured I'd raise my concerns about the product. Maybe they'll get fixed, then I'll buy more product. Maybe not, in which case also no big deal.

42 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

This game has 11 waves and I've been playing since since wave 3. The complexity isn't a problem, it's a welcome addition to the game.

Power creep is a problem, but that's largely an independent issue from complexity, albeit Jumpmaster and Jumpmaster II (Scurgg) have been problems with their access to many different exotic and complex abilities.

Complexity isn't an issue. If it is for you, just rtfc.

I agree with you but i am still debating if Dalan is complex or overpowered. Being able to turn any maneuver into a talon (a talon with a bank template??) on reveal is a lot when you add that bank barrel roll that you can do before getting the stress. In term of flexibility, it feels really close to the old Tie Phantom... if not better. IMO it makes the ship even harder for your opponent to predict. At least the phantom was forced to chose between decloaking or attacking. It was still forced to do its original maneuver as well. IMO that requires much more planning. What might save the day is the fact that hes going to be at most ps8 and wont have mindlink or other good EPT when doing so.

I guess, it's just a matter of if a new player wants to dive into a game that now actually takes time to learn or not, rather than just time to master.

When the "old players" started, there wasn't much, so it was easy to spend time on the basics. New stuff = More fun instead of "same old, same old" for those players. Now that there are a lot of interactions, you really have to invest time to start from scratch. However, this is like starting ANY game that's been alive for 3+ years. There will be so many interactions or min-maxed ideas/builds/decks/equipment that starting fresh will always seem a hassle. I won't often be starting any "competitive" games besides X Wing for that exact reason. I'll be behind, and the amount of research and practice I'll have to commit in order to have a fighting chance will be atrocious. Expandable games just grow, nothing we can do about it. Companies won't make money if they don't grow and change.

Overall, dial choices DO still make a difference, just not always in the exact same way. That is why some players consistently come out on top, they know the correct dial choices and positions to pull off consistent victories. It's the desire to be THAT good at something that keeps a player invested. Heck, that's pretty much what has been driving X Wing in general, even when it was TIEs vs XWings...the desire to prove you are better with a TIE than every other TIE player.

If you are new to something and dont know everything and that's unfair, you are going to have a very hard life indeed.

The game is not that big or complex, it's not even that much to learn.

In the diagram provided the tie advanced got into a position that was going to be bad for him for any number of maneuvers the star viper could do. This is not about the Advanced punishing the Starviper for a bad maneuver in this case the Starviper is punishing the advanced for a poor maneuver.

Anyways, maybe this game is not for you. At least in a larger format but that has to be the worst excuse I have ever heard basically "I started something new, did not know everything right off the bat and therefore I quit" With an attitude like that you would not be winning games even if you started at wave 1, if you don't want to learn there really is no hope for you.

24 minutes ago, Thormind said:

I agree with you but i am still debating if Dalan is complex or overpowered. Being able to turn any maneuver into a talon (a talon with a bank template??) on reveal is a lot when you add that bank barrel roll that you can do before getting the stress. In term of flexibility, it feels really close to the old Tie Phantom... if not better. IMO it makes the ship even harder for your opponent to predict. At least the phantom was forced to chose between decloaking or attacking. It was still forced to do its original maneuver as well. IMO that requires much more planning. What might save the day is the fact that hes going to be at most ps8 and wont have mindlink or other good EPT when doing so.

I don't think that's complexity, I think that that's just stupid Acewing shenanigans.

He can still have Mindlink and FCS. When he's stressed he'll still get a focus and target lock.

The phantom never had to choose between cloaking and attacking because of ACD.

I think the OP stated his opinion in a manner opposite of what he intended. He said, "The game as a whole is just way too complex now. Balance issues aside, I think the game's lost the basic idea of 'I pick a smarter move than you, so I can shoot you better.' " What he's really complaining about is excessive repositioning - i.e. a balance issue - not a complexity issue.

I made the mistake of seeing the word, "complexity" and addressing it as a complexity issue instead of addressing what he meant to say, which is a balance issue. So I'll do that.

Petrol Blue, the point you bring up about repositioning taking away what matters most about this game is absolutely correct and this game was ruled by ships that did just that from waves 4 until a few months to a year ago. My advice to you as someone who has felt the same way about this game ruining bull is to just stop being salty and fly it yourself, the game is so riddled with cancer like this and other types of cancer that it's literally not possible to enjoy it competitively without using cancer yourself in order to have a fighting chance. I don't know if this specific Starviper will be a problem, but your complaint about repositioning generally is valid.

40 minutes ago, kris40k said:

While I don't agree with everything @petrol blue is saying here, I do want to point out that the major difference between those examples and what is happening here with the new and improved Viper is that not only did Dalan avoid being in a bad position, it has actually dialed in a bad move, but then reversed the situation that not only is it out of arc to avoid attack, but it has the enemy in its arc now, completely reversing the situation. In your examples:

1. The TIE Fighter would be out of arc, but not able to attack. It escaped, but did not turn around to take the offense.
2. A boosting ship would also escape arc, but just like the TIE/ln, it would not have an arc of attack on the enemy.
3. An AdvSen B-Wing would be able to roll back resulting in them being in arc of each other. Not escaping punishment, but keeping a shot of its own, evening things out.

All of those examples are far from being able to dial a bad move, and then completely flip the situation to not only avoid being shot, but actually getting the enemy in arc to punish them for having the gall of flying a TIE/x1 in today's meta.

Nominate for Post of the Year 2017

Edit: After posting this quote, I decided to see who said it. And had to reread the whole thing in Kris' voice. Even better.

It's a good thing that that starviper is gonna be a little pricey if its doing that with adv sensors - (which means it has virago) - AND it's gotta use its ept on VI for 8 OR its at p.s. 6 - so, in that picture, darth vader gets to move afterwards and just dodge the shot.

Uh any imp ace powered by Stridan can do 4 action shenanigans which includes BR+Boost at PS4. Dalan's flexibility gives a breath of fresh air for mid PS pilots to be playable and competitive. Yes it's very powerful against lower PS, but it's good against hi PS ace just like Ryad. This is taking maneuver-guessing to next level. It's good growth for the game.

A game that stays very simple won't last long. A game that's too complex will have lower adoption rate. I still believe X-wing has the right amount of complexity 11.5 waves later.

Coming to xwing from MTG - I think this game is ludicrously simple. You could triple the complexity and imo this wouldn't be approaching MTGs shadow yet

Also i vs'd bobagator once and that was all kinds of 'doesn't matter what you dialled in'. Likewise I think there is a VCX build that does a similar thing nowadays?

Bravo forums, as usual, you've chosen the most trivial and least practical thing to worry about for a release.

3 hours ago, petrol blue said:

I played in (and came gloriously last in!) a theatrical-cut league recently. I'm a newbie, and I knew that I was going to get my *** kicked. Even so, trimming the game down to 'Wave 1-3' gave me a way in, a sort-of-level playing field.

The game as a whole is just way too complex now. Balance issues aside, I think the game's lost the basic idea of 'I pick a smarter move than you, so I can shoot you better'.

Look at that. That isn't 'I out-thought you', that's 'I have so many options you can't win'. If I picked a poor maneuver (the original bank-1-r), you should get a shot on me!

Gonna proxy a bunch of stuff, gonna play some HotAC and paint up some awesome X's and Y's. I was never going to be a competitive must-buy-everything player, but the current game feels more and more outside of my reach. I hope there's some sort of 2.0 campaign box soon.

Soontir Fel is way more maneuvrable. In which wave is Fel?

3 hours ago, petrol blue said:

Complexity isn't an issue for you . As you said, you're an expert of the game - what you see as a welcome stretching of the rules is a lot more intimidating for those with less experience.

You still here?

Said this just in other thread, but overthinking this game is bad...

5 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Complexity isn't an issue. If it is for you, just rtfc.

What a great attitude! Yes sure, older players will eventually quit the game because of life. But that way we can make sure to attract mainly like-minded, competitive WAAC players that already make this game such a great play experience! Drawing in new players that normally wouldn't try this game is a weakness, we only need strong players that are willing to learn several hundred cards before they start playing! /s

Two people I regularly played with quit the game because ships with 8 upgrades suck. There's so much to keep in mind that it becomes a great test of skill and concentration, and some of us like that, yes. But this game is also played by others who just want to put plastic star wars ships on the table and go pewpew.

Of course we play HOTAC now. But is it really a smart move to exclude them from normal play? From the only format that's supported by FFG?

7 hours ago, petrol blue said:

What this picture doesn't show that if that was a TIE AG a) Still having arc at R1 (put ruler to screen if you must) b) the Ion Cannon it has equipped.