6 hours ago, petrol blue said:

...the current game feels more and more outside of my reach. I hope there's some sort of 2.0 campaign box soon.

I suspect this attitude is more common. Maybe the problem here is that the game offers so many options that it is impossible for the occasional player to memorize them all. This means the player will face something new almost every time, which isn't always fun. You think you can do this or that, but suddenly ships are able to jump out of arc, steal your tokens, ignore stress, bypass shields, etc. This causes a kind of "this was never part of our deal" emotion. I've seen it in a player at our club, who was annoyed by my Upsilon/3xTIEfo list. It had Snap Shot/OpSpec and Kylo Ren/Omega Ace as combos. I thought it was pretty fun and thematic. The point is not whether or not such a list is 'fair' or 'NPE' or anything, but rather that all these interactions make the game more geared towards a more specific playing style or a more specific taste.

The publishers have neglected this resentment somewhat. There really should be more attention to objective based play. I am really puzzled why no expansion (except the Rebel Transport) presents a scenario that replays scenes from the films. Each new wave presents a lot of new interactions and that is wonderful for a certain playing style. But it ignores another.

7 hours ago, petrol blue said:

I played in (and came gloriously last in!) a theatrical-cut league recently. I'm a newbie, and I knew that I was going to get my *** kicked. Even so, trimming the game down to 'Wave 1-3' gave me a way in, a sort-of-level playing field.

The game as a whole is just way too complex now. Balance issues aside, I think the game's lost the basic idea of 'I pick a smarter move than you, so I can shoot you better'.

...

7 hours ago, petrol blue said:

Complexity isn't an issue for you . As you said, you're an expert of the game - what you see as a welcome stretching of the rules is a lot more intimidating for those with less experience.

"... For You " ?? you didn't add that either FFS.

If you were going to criticize his generalization you shouldn't have written the opposite generalization to begin with, duh.

" The game as a whole is just way too complex now FOR ME ."

While we 're at it, your title is clickbait by virtue of its misleading inaccuracy.

I don't care if someone doesn't like the game, or part of the game, I posted because I found the duplicity I pointed out annoying.

Generalizing is the same as speaking on my behalf, and being duplicitous while doing so is even more annoying.

4 minutes ago, gabe69velasquez said:

"... For You " ?? you didn't add that either FFS.

If you were going to criticize his generalization you shouldn't have written the opposite generalization to begin with, duh.

" The game as a whole is just way too complex now FOR ME ."

While we 're at it, your title is clickbait by virtue of its misleading inaccuracy.

Now you're just contrary for the sake of being contrary.

the 'for me' is not only implied, it's even explicit with the title!

It is objectively true that the game got more complex. 'Too complex' is of course a matter of opinion, so the qualifier is not even needed.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Now you're just contrary for the sake of being contrary.

the 'for me' is not only implied, it's even explicit with the title!

It is objectively true that the game got more complex. 'Too complex' is of course a matter of opinion, so the qualifier is not even needed.

That's not true, not what's written specifically, that's your interpretation;

It can just as easily be read that she's out because the game is too complicated, period.

"I'm out: the game is way to complicated" paraphrasing without adding what you have added, nothing of what you interpret is explicitly there.

1 minute ago, gabe69velasquez said:

because the game is too complicated

'Too' means 'in comparison to someone or something'.

The statement is made clear to be an opinion due to the combination with complicated, the title (I'm out. I) and the context of the game. So the 'too' means 'in comparison to my taste or ability'

This gives us the clear meaning of 'Too complicated for me'.

it is ambiguous about the reason WHY it's too complicated, but not for the comparison to what or whom.

"Somebody doesn't like the game and it is making me furious!!!"

I have seen this reaction so many times.

A newbie comes with his just acquired ships, B-wings, A-wings, X-wings... Then he plays how the manual taught him to. Plan a maneuver, then move, then do an action.

Then he is crushed by the ships and upgrades that laugh at his naive play-by-the-book skills.
Wait for him to move, then reposition, token up, and release a double modified 5 dice attack at round 2 that volatilizes half his squadron.

Deer eyes looking at the spotlights. "What the **** was that? Are we even playing the same game?"

18 minutes ago, Stay On The Leader said:

"Somebody doesn't like the game and it is making me furious!!!"

Or people jump off and do FFG a favour by explaining their reasons on the official forum.

Complexity creep is a very valid complaint, and both FFG and we as a community would be wise not to ignore it.

Hotac is an answer from the community (or amazing individuals), but what does FFG offer? And why would we shun demands in that direction?!

Hi Petrol,

Yeah it's discouraging to get the wooden spoon at an event; but it happens to everyone. So don't let that dissuade you.

As a newer player you're just hanging over the precipice of realisation that this game is 'deep man!' - it's always been this way

In fact, that shows you're learning and on the way to better play.

Take Dalan for example. Seems a bit unfair doesn't he? But let's have a another look over that cliff edge:

He's only PS6 (8 with veterans instinct). That's good, but not *amazing*. So did the Tie Adv player take that into account during the proceeding moves?

Second: Dalans now stressed. What other ships are on the field, just out of picture that are about to swing in and give old Dalan a hard time? A stressed PS6 viper with no focus, or evade is trusting to the luck of those cruel green dice!

Sure Dalan, and ships like him, give you options but that's not to say they're always 'good' options. Really good players (and I'm sadly not one of them) don't look at that one turn event: they're looking one, two or even three turns ahead. And often you don't seem them taking 'flashy, tricksy' ships like Dalan. Have a look a Paul Heavers lists - often they're just decent pilots with good abilities that fly exactly as you suggest: predicting your opponent moves, predicting his strategy and winning through the course of the game.

Heavers Naboo Open win had a K Wing, X Wing and Y Wing: only the K (Miranda) could do any sort of repositioning. Proof, if any was needed, that whilst hot shot aces like Dalan, Sontir or Poe can do some crazy *** moves - they often fall flat on their faces when it all goes pear shaped! ?

1 hour ago, Tam Palso said:

He's only PS6 (8 with veterans instinct). That's good, but not *amazing*. So did the Tie Adv player take that into account during the proceeding moves?

Second: Dalans now stressed. What other ships are on the field, just out of picture that are about to swing in and give old Dalan a hard time? A stressed PS6 viper with no focus, or evade is trusting to the luck of those cruel green dice!

Even assuming that's a generic TIE advanced, not Vader - generally, a generic TIE advanced packs accuracy corrector, meaning the advanced probably has an evade token.

4 unmodified dice....2 hits. 3 unmodified greens plus an evade token....generally 2 evades. Oberos hasn't been shot at, but he's unlikely to achieve anything with his shot, and then, as you say, he's stressed and his opponent isn't.

What I'd suggest; have a try with the generic TIE striker. Whilst your opponent may have ludicrous abilities to boost, barrel roll and generally faff around at PS13, it's amazing how many 'impossible problems' a swarm of generic TIE/sk can present; 5 arcs to dodge, each one capable of coming about 135' in a turn without stress.

There's nothing more satisfying than watching an opponent with a pilot like this slowly realising that none of their tricks will get them out of the arc of incoming fire....

1 hour ago, Azrapse said:

I have seen this reaction so many times.

A newbie comes with his just acquired ships, B-wings, A-wings, X-wings... Then he plays how the manual taught him to. Plan a maneuver, then move, then do an action.

Then he is crushed by the ships and upgrades that laugh at his naive play-by-the-book skills.
Wait for him to move, then reposition, token up, and release a double modified 5 dice attack at round 2 that volatilizes half his squadron.

Deer eyes looking at the spotlights. "What the **** was that? Are we even playing the same game?"

This, I'll grant you. Introducing someone to the game is easy; it's star wars, it's dogfighting, it's bloody awesome.

Introducing someone to competitive events of X-wing , needs to be done carefully. Players need to build up their confidence, piloting skills, and understanding of the rules, and have the right mindset, otherwise it's very easy to shake their confidence and lose their interest.

Your first 'proper' tournament, if you've got a core set and a couple of cool ships from the films, is likely to be an experience in "did anyone catch the number of the freight train that just ran over me?".

This is not a million miles from Magic: The Gathering. The rules are easy enough to understand, but 'squad-building' is sufficient of an art form that the difference between a badly put together squad and a top end tournament build is.....yeah.

The thing is, the tournament build can still be beaten. No amount of dice modification helps when you can't shoot. Only a handful of cards help you get actions if your initial dial move gets blocked.

But at the same time, the point of X-wing is to have fun . If getting curb-stomped by clones of the latest hideous idea Team Covenant et al have pulled out of their collective imaginations isn't fun, then - as you say - stick to missions, casual games, epic, whatever is fun.

9 hours ago, kris40k said:

While I don't agree with everything @petrol blue is saying here, I do want to point out that the major difference between those examples and what is happening here with the new and improved Viper is that not only did Dalan avoid being in a bad position, it has actually dialed in a bad move, but then reversed the situation that not only is it out of arc to avoid attack, but it has the enemy in its arc now, completely reversing the situation. In your examples:

1. The TIE Fighter would be out of arc, but not able to attack. It escaped, but did not turn around to take the offense.
2. A boosting ship would also escape arc, but just like the TIE/ln, it would not have an arc of attack on the enemy.
3. An AdvSen B-Wing would be able to roll back resulting in them being in arc of each other. Not escaping punishment, but keeping a shot of its own, evening things out.

All of those examples are far from being able to dial a bad move, and then completely flip the situation to not only avoid being shot, but actually getting the enemy in arc to punish them for having the gall of flying a TIE/x1 in today's meta.

Just out PS dalan. Problem solved. Or box him/her in with blockers.

In other words:

Git Gud

To be fair, in that example we have a unique StarViper pilot with a unique title and Advanced Sensors (minimum price 31 points) flying against a lower PS TIE Advanced (minimum price 21 points).

I would be disappointed if Dalan couldn't effectively outmanuever his lower PS, cheaper opponent in a one-on-one situation..

And as others have also pointed out, in that scenario Dalan has used all his actions for repositioning, has no offensive/defensive tokens and ends the turn stressed, so although it's a great ability, it's not without it's drawbacks.

25 minutes ago, BlodVargarna said:

Just out PS dalan. Problem solved. Or box him/her in with blockers.

In other words:

Git Gud

That misses the point. Dalan is a symptom and not the problem.

14 minutes ago, FTS Gecko said:

To be fair, in that example we have a unique StarViper pilot with a unique title and Advanced Sensors (minimum price 31 points) flying against a lower PS TIE Advanced (minimum price 21 points).

I would be disappointed if Dalan couldn't effectively outmanuever his lower PS, cheaper opponent in a one-on-one situation..

And as others have also pointed out, in that scenario Dalan has used all his actions for repositioning, has no offensive/defensive tokens and ends the turn stressed, so although it's a great ability, it's not without it's drawbacks.

Symptoms of the OP's concern.

While I think there are larger problems, this isn't a surprising reaction. As a long time enthusiast I find it harder and harder to keep up..

Indeed.

And to an extent it's a problem that's existed since Wave 2 - the Push The Limit Soontir Fel going "you have a shot? I see. Boost/Push/Barrel Roll. No you don't. Aren't I such an amazing strategist to avoid your arc?"

But at the same time, there are ways to counter this. The trick is to show a player them (stress, ions, snap shots, etc), instead of just dismissing their concerns.

Out-pilot-skill-ing an opponent is fair enough (and certainly works with Dalan, Blue Ace, Zeta Ace, and the rest of the mid-pilot-skill-with-repositioning-pilot-ability crowd), but that largely just focuses the problem down onto aces who can achieve PS9+ without compromising their ability (Soontir, Whisper, Vader, Jake, Fenn, etc).

3 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

... but that largely just focuses the problem down onto aces who can achieve PS9+ without compromising their ability (Soontir, Whisper, Vader, Jake, Fenn, etc).

..And those who are viable in today's meta, which is really just Fenn, Dengar, Quickdraw, and Nym(?)..

9 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

The phantom never had to choose between cloaking and attacking because of ACD.

Decloaking or attacking. You cant attack when cloaked. It makes the phantom less flexible because if you'd rather stay where you are before doing your maneuver (ie not decloak) you sacrifice your attack.

I was comparing that to having a choice between barrel roll before maneuver or not (not at the beginning of the activation phase, like decloak), barrell roll after maneuver, doing the chosen move or switching it to a T-roll. Thats a lot of flexibility.

9 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

I think that that's just stupid Acewing shenanigans.

He can still have Mindlink and FCS. When he's stressed he'll still get a focus and target lock.

Like i said im not sure if hes OP yet, he might not be. In order for him to be a pseudo "ace" you need to gear him up with VI (no mindlink) and Advanced Sensors (no FCS). Even then we are still talking about a PS8 pilot at most. Thats kinda low to be considered an effective ace or arc dodger. There is a reason why Whisper is almost glued to VI.

Repositioning is much less impactful if you are not a low PS (to block) or high PS (to dodge). At ps 6 or 8 hes neither.

11 hours ago, kris40k said:

You didn't even read the post did you?

He's not quitting, he's getting out of the competitive scene and playing hotac and waiting for a campaign box.

Yeah I read the whole whiny post.

Waiting for a X-wing 2.0 because you can't handle that the game has evolved and has actually become interesting is just illogical. Why bother? Even if there is a 2.0 it's not going to wipe the slate clean and go back to what the basic core set was. If you're not actually willing even as a new player jumping in to figure out all the ins and outs of the game then why bother? It's obviously not interesting enough to you if you won't take the time to learn the whole game. It has nothing to do with being competitive. As I said stick to chess, that will never change on you. So sick of people whining which is why I chimed in in the first place. The forums used to be filled with interesting discussions, now its been boiled down to: I'm out threads, illogical Nerf or Buff threads and scum is so op threads.

I only have time for a game every month or so right now and I don't think it's overly complex.

6 minutes ago, TasteTheRainbow said:

I only have time for a game every month or so right now and I don't think it's overly complex.

Great!

2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

That misses the point. Dalan is a symptom and not the problem.

Dalan is not that big of a deal.

Learn how to overcome these gimmicks with basic skills, i.e. blocking etc.

An academy TIE can solve Dalan.

Wow...someone who loves the game, but is not liking where it's headed posts about it on the official forums in the hope that someone official notices....and people jump down his throat! The guy has a legitimate complaint and he's come to the right place for it. No need to be a jerk about it to him.

My advice? Quit playing tournaments and competitive play. Once I quit doing that, I had a lot more fun in the game. The hard part will be finding the right players to game with. Still, the title of your thread ( Another 'I'm out' thread) shows that you aren't alone in your thoughts. So, if you try, you can probably find some people that are burnt out on the game or not really into the competitive scene to have a fun and casual group to play with.

As a complete side note, I do see a lot more of these types of threads on here. I want to point out to all the people that talk about how strong the game is and how the competitive scene is only growing. There are a growing number of people frustrated with where the game is heading. It's less and less isolated people who don't really matter.

14 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Wow...someone who loves the game, but is not liking where it's headed posts about it on the official forums in the hope that someone official notices....and people jump down his throat! The guy has a legitimate complaint and he's come to the right place for it. No need to be a jerk about it to him.

My advice? Quit playing tournaments and competitive play. Once I quit doing that, I had a lot more fun in the game. The hard part will be finding the right players to game with. Still, the title of your thread ( Another 'I'm out' thread) shows that you aren't alone in your thoughts. So, if you try, you can probably find some people that are burnt out on the game or not really into the competitive scene to have a fun and casual group to play with.

As a complete side note, I do see a lot more of these types of threads on here. I want to point out to all the people that talk about how strong the game is and how the competitive scene is only growing. There are a growing number of people frustrated with where the game is heading. It's less and less isolated people who don't really matter.

My problem is, these days, the only time I really get to play is tournaments and competitive play. The casual x-wing scene in my area has dried up. I do have a way around this though. When I play in a tournament I play for fun. I bring a list that is fun to play. I don't care if I do well. I'm there to have fun and, if I break even record wise, I consider it a success. And, on that instance where the list actually does well, like last Sunday going 3-1 with 4 Scyks with Mindlink and Manglers getting me a 6th place out of 19 players, so much the better.

8 minutes ago, T70 Driver said:

My problem is, these days, the only time I really get to play is tournaments and competitive play. The casual x-wing scene in my area has dried up. I do have a way around this though. When I play in a tournament I play for fun. I bring a list that is fun to play. I don't care if I do well. I'm there to have fun and, if I break even record wise, I consider it a success. And, on that instance where the list actually does well, like last Sunday going 3-1 with 4 Scyks with Mindlink and Manglers getting me a 6th place out of 19 players, so much the better.

PM me if you want help building the casual scene. I've got some ideas. It does take effort. It might not be a total lost cause.

Often times more OPTIONS means more margin for error. If everyone is making better decisions than you, I don't think +/- OPTIONS are the problem.