14 minutes ago, Bayushi Nono said:

Lions Pride Brawler! Her Ability is in Pol-Conflicts insane!

??? Pride Brawler needs Militar to bow... I understand your idea but she is focused on militar.

18 minutes ago, GoblinGuide said:

That's really not true. Ikoma Prodigy, Historian and Spiritcaller are all pretty good.

Ikoma prodigy is fine, but 2 political don't help a lot..

Spiritcaller costs 3 for 3 political, but okay i'll keep those 2.

But Historian? cost 2, can't engage in militar conflicts and you have to be more honorable than your foe to use her hability. To keep in front in honor you have to play a slow game, biding low, etc... this is really not a good card for a lion clan player who doesn't want to gain honor and play slow.

54 minutes ago, Kakita Onimaru said:

Phoenix glory looks nice, But I am troubled how few options they have to Honor themselves. I've been playing with Crane who have more options and its already hard for me to be consistantly honored, IDK how the phoenix are gonna pull it off.

A few ways to get honored:

• Own the Fire ring. You are Phoenix, after all.
• Asako Diplomat. Amazing ability, repeatable, bonus Fire ring.
• Magnificent Kimono. Awards pride, easy to trigger as a conflict card.
• Court Games. Play 3. Don't even question it.

3 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

??? Pride Brawler needs Militar to bow... I understand your idea but she is focused on militar.

Brawler works off the mil stat, but doesn't need to be a military battle. All you need to be is the attacker.

6 minutes ago, L5RBr said:

But Historian? cost 2, can't engage in militar conflicts and you have to be more honorable than your foe to use her hability. To keep in front in honor you have to play a slow game, biding low, etc... this is really not a good card for a lion clan player who doesn't want to gain honor and play slow.

I've been ahead in honour in every single Lion game I've played, often threatening honour victory. Historian is good. Lion are far better politically than you're giving them credit for, Crab are worse than Lion at Pol (on offense, at least).

2 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

A few ways to get honored:

• Own the Fire ring. You are Phoenix, after all.
• Asako Diplomat. Amazing ability, repeatable, bonus Fire ring.
• Magnificent Kimono. Awards pride, easy to trigger as a conflict card.
• Court Games. Play 3. Don't even question it.

The problem with that is that, except for Court Games, they all honor people AFTER a battle....a battle they have to win without expecting to see the glory force bump. So either they have to win a battle and get honored for a counter attack (Which the kimono cant do since it only honors the person wearing it..who is now bowed) or win a battle and honor people with a lot of fate on them.

Also, Shameful display works well. Still limited.

2 minutes ago, Kakita Onimaru said:

Also, Shameful display works well. Still limited.

But is Void, as I believe was confirmed in the game they played a while back, which conflicts with our SH, sadly.

5 minutes ago, Kakita Onimaru said:

The problem with that is that, except for Court Games, they all honor people AFTER a battle....a battle they have to win without expecting to see the glory force bump. So either they have to win a battle and get honored for a counter attack (Which the kimono cant do since it only honors the person wearing it..who is now bowed) or win a battle and honor people with a lot of fate on them.

Also, Shameful display works well. Still limited.

Add some straightening to your deck so you can use the person wearing the kimono in a second conflict?

10 minutes ago, fyrm said:

But is Void, as I believe was confirmed in the game they played a while back, which conflicts with our SH, sadly.

Shameful display never came up in the game. I don't think its been confirmed yet what its element is. Personally I still think its going to be Air.

1 hour ago, L5RBr said:

Ok Ikoma Eiji is a terrible character, venerable historian weak too, I really don't want them in my deck.

You need 5 bushi Lion to make something like 10 Pol.

And Phoenix is in great advantage about honoring/dishonoring characters.

Venerable historian is BOSS. What don't you like about 4 pol for 2 fate with an honor gain on leaving play?

If you aren't staying ahead in honor, your Obstinate Recruits are worthless too. I mean, you don't HAVE to play so your best cards are good. But it's a good idea.

1 minute ago, JRosen9 said:

Shameful display never came up in the game. I don't think its been confirmed yet what its element is. Personally I still think its going to be Air.

Huh, odd. The Gamepedia page lists it as Void though, so I just figured that was where it was relieved. Maybe it was relieved to be so somewhere else?

Just now, fyrm said:

Huh, odd. The Gamepedia page lists it as Void though, so I just figured that was where it was relieved. Maybe it was relieved to be so somewhere else?

I haven't seen anything. We know its not earth as that is the +5 pol province and the +5 mil province. Its not water either as that is elemental fury and the one that flips conflict types. That leaves air, void, and fire. I can see air as its a similar effect to the crane province which is also air (but then the similar effect for phoenix is a water province). I could also see fire as it has a similar effect to the ring effect. I just can't see void as it just doesn't fit. If shameful is void, no one will play Pilgrimage as shameful and Kuroi Mori are both better.

1 minute ago, JRosen9 said:

I haven't seen anything. We know its not earth as that is the +5 pol province and the +5 mil province. Its not water either as that is elemental fury and the one that flips conflict types. That leaves air, void, and fire. I can see air as its a similar effect to the crane province which is also air (but then the similar effect for phoenix is a water province). I could also see fire as it has a similar effect to the ring effect. I just can't see void as it just doesn't fit. If shameful is void, no one will play Pilgrimage as shameful and Kuroi Mori are both better.

I have the exact same thinking, I really hope it was a mistake, but until other news comes out my play group is playing with it as void. Although, I could see Crab wanting Pilgrimage over Shameful. They seem to have lower Glory on average, and would like the defensive bonus of "break or you get nothing".

2 minutes ago, JRosen9 said:

If shameful is void, no one will play Pilgrimage as shameful and Kuroi Mori are both better.

Plus the first four provinces they spoiled would then be illegal to combine in a deck. That doesn't seem likely. My bet is also Air, Meditations on the Tao seems more Void-y to me.

30 minutes ago, Kakita Onimaru said:

The problem with that is that, except for Court Games, they all honor people AFTER a battle....a battle they have to win without expecting to see the glory force bump. So either they have to win a battle and get honored for a counter attack (Which the kimono cant do since it only honors the person wearing it..who is now bowed) or win a battle and honor people with a lot of fate on them.

Also, Shameful display works well. Still limited.

All good points, but Way of the Crane is the only instant speed honoring card we have seen other than Court Games (unless you count Honored General). Maybe that's how the Phoenix will end up playing; a little slow to get rolling, but then they start to steamroll by the end. Seems reasonable given the cardpool.

1 hour ago, Matrim said:

to my mind the card art is better than crane. This makes me sad.

Justice at last.

Kyuden Doji Delenda Est.

Purge the Crane with fire.


I.... am gonna have to log SO MUCH practice to get all of these fiddly bits working in harmony.
And I will do so, because the Phoenix not only look effective and fun to play.... they also look appropriately on-theme. Magic, sure. Honor, absolutely. Weird and annoying to the other clans? Totally.

And mad love for a yojimbo who can survive doing their job more than once.

Love what they have done to the Phoenix. Looks like a blast to play.

Lion'sPride Brawler can bow Doji Hotaru in a Politcal challenge. That seems good for the Lion Clan. (so long as you don't get her sent home by the Crane Stronghold first)

28 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

All good points, but Way of the Crane is the only instant speed honoring card we have seen other than Court Games (unless you count Honored General). Maybe that's how the Phoenix will end up playing; a little slow to get rolling, but then they start to steamroll by the end. Seems reasonable given the cardpool.

Crane also has brash samurai who honors himself and Savy politician, who doesn't honor herself but double the effectiveness of an honoring. Also, Art of peace can honor people (albeit after a fight is lost). But even with all these tools it is still difficult for me to keep enough honored people on the board to power voice of honor and noble sacrifice (which I don't need people to be straight for, just on the board and honored). Phoenix have half as many tools and want to have honored people in the current fight. Looks rough, especially if your opponent has court games or shameful display.

4 hours ago, Kubernes said:

That yojimbo looks to be too expensive considering the other drops. I'd rather it be a 1/2 for 2.

The stronghold feels really weird since there's all this attention for rings and shugenja. Crane are probably mad about it too. Oh, and that they have a better native political attachment.

I'll go over the rest when I get finish with work.

Thanks for the birthday present FFG.

This way he can't be assassinated. Cost 2 seems to be the point at which characters can be removed fairly easily.

Yeah Asako Diplomat and Court Games aren't enough. Magnificent Kimono is attractive, but it requires you win a conflict with just the +1 before gaining the honor boost. Ring of Air is an option, of course, but like Magnificent Kimono it requires you win a conflict first. Asako Diplomat is not that great out of the gate so turn 1 it would still need something else like Ornate Fan to be effective. I think ring hijinx and ring of air are going to be essential if they want to really play the honor game.

I think some level of "playing the honor game" is going to be mandatory to get the most out of the characters on offer at launch.

I think Phoenix have the tools. If it was too easy to honor everyone for them they would steamroll. They will have to just set themselves up.

Scorpion's Young Rumormonger looks better and better vs Phoenix. They might not be able to honor whom they want or dishonor whom they prefer in the case of Court Games leading to choices more in the favor of the Scorpion.

2 hours ago, fyrm said:

Huh, odd. The Gamepedia page lists it as Void though, so I just figured that was where it was relieved. Maybe it was relieved to be so somewhere else?

It is void.

It was from a leak from... somewhere. There is a pic out there with the 5 provinces someone played in a beta game. Of them, we know the type of all but the Shameful Display. Process of elimination tells us it is void.

Edit: Found the picture. For those that think the effect is too similar to Art of Peace, and therefore they must be the same type, please note that Elemental Fury and the Phoenix Province have nearly the exact same effect and they are different types.

Who knows how FFG is assigning types. It seems to have more to do with game balance than anything to do with the effects.

3 hours ago, Laurence J Sinclair said:

This way he can't be assassinated. Cost 2 seems to be the point at which characters can be removed fairly easily.

That's fine if the opponent wants to spend removal (and 3 honor) killing the yojimbo. That's the entire point of her and less removal targeting the more important shugenja.

On to the cards!

Naïve Student - I want to know his negative, if any, since he's another 1 cost and a potential shugenja.

Radiant Orator - Great ability on a rather lackluster skill base and a cost of 3. She gets the boost from the stronghold's ability too but she might be largely a metagame pick. Why? Some clans like the Crane will have access to a good number of high glory characters making it more difficult to pull off the action. She's a courtier, which is great for some of the political cards (i.e. For Shame!) but she might just thinned out of decks simply because of that cost and the lack of a shugenja keyword.

Adept of the Waves - Covert is very powerful from the games I've tested so far and any card that gives it is always worth looking into. I like the fact that he can potentially force your opponent to either do a water conflict or risk giving it to you and bypassing a character. He should be a stable of every Phoenix deck from his okay stats for the cost, good glory, and excellent ability.

Isawa Atsuko - Solid ability during void conflicts and considering the ways to change the ring into void, she isn't terrible. Phoenix really like shugenja so she'll get played for the time being. Having the void ability is great since she seems to want to be around for an extra turn and getting buffs during that conflict helps keep that fate from being removed or to push for fate removal during one of your conflicts.

Shiba Yojimbo - A bit too expensive. Yes, there are removal cards that will target your shugenja but the yojimbo is an investment type of card. For 3 or more fate on a weaker than average body. Seems like that type of card that your opponent can play around, like how Court Games can simply target one of your own characters.

Supernatural Storm - Economical card that will see play if your deck has a decent number of shugenja. I expect it to usually give a 1 or 2 two bonus, which is perfectly fine for the cost. Once we see more shugenja, I do expect it to do a whole lot more. I love that it's a cheap influence card too but there's a general lack of shugenja around for it right now.

Fearsome Mystic - She loves the air conflicts but her ability doesn't look like it will see play very often. She can go up to 5 glory during air conflicts with the stronghold but she might be passed because of all the other options for the clan.

Serene Warrior - He's a big guy like the Mystic and works well with the stronghold, but the trick is getting that honored status. He'll always be picked over cards like the Mystic because of that 1 fate difference.

Asako Diplomat - Your 2 drop, along with others, for the clan. She wants you to win those conflicts to pump up your other guys. She's another courtier but I really wish she was a shugenja too. She works very well with the Adept of the Waves when you have the First Player token.

Magnificent Kimono - The Crane must be quite jealous about this card. There doesn't seem a reason not to run this card in the Phoenix with the current stronghold and it's bargain cost. The extremely low influence cost is fantastic too. I'm sure we'll see more Asahina characters in the future who will love this and Supernatural Storm.

Isawa Mori Seido - Still think the ability is weird for the clan, although I'm more used to spell focused or monk focused cards of the past. Still sad not to see a Phoenix monk. People should remember that it can be used on opponent's characters to increase a dishonored character's penalty.

Shiba Tsukune - Great ability but not as evil as the Great Bear's or as versatile as the Dragon Champion's. She feels like a great unique that is helpful even if you don't win your 2 conflicts. She does definitely change the flow of the game once she hits the board. Pairs very well with the Way card.

Way of the Phoenix - Might be one of the best control cards we've seen for the game so far. Almost wish it costed 1 fate and I'm sure more people will too in the future.

The Phoenix look great so far, with some of the more interesting tricks and control elements of all the clans so far. I still need to see a few more of the other cards to see how building them will fare.

6 hours ago, L5RBr said:

Yes we will have to wait for the rulebook to know how it works.

Just seems nonsense to me a card that forces the Lion (who all know will focus on militar to win and be very weak on Pol to work fine) to have a balance.

If you focus entirely on your strengths, you can only blame yourself when you run into a card that exploits your weaknesses.