Dragon Player: "Ima spend some fate towards X Ring and pick it up later!"
Phoenix Player: "Thanks, fam!" *swaps conflict Ring, takes free Fate tokens*
Dragon Player: #feelsbadman.jpg

As a Phoenix fan I've absolutely loved the past fortnight and sad it has to end (although really pleased its Unicorn up next).

Their in-game themes correlate closely with my gaming style preferences (manipulation rather than denial; passive power rather than overt aggression). The Champion card looks beautiful too, indeed the whole orange-themed aesthetics look delicious.

Downsides? It looks like Phoenix decks will favour the long game, which personally I think is great... But I wonder how well they'll stand up to aggressive rush decks e.g. Lion, Crane or maybe even Crab?

1 hour ago, Caldera said:

As a Phoenix fan I've absolutely loved the past fortnight and sad it has to end (although really pleased its Unicorn up next).

Their in-game themes correlate closely with my gaming style preferences (manipulation rather than denial; passive power rather than overt aggression). The Champion card looks beautiful too, indeed the whole orange-themed aesthetics look delicious.

Downsides? It looks like Phoenix decks will favour the long game, which personally I think is great... But I wonder how well they'll stand up to aggressive rush decks e.g. Lion, Crane or maybe even Crab?

I think that the biggest problem will be "tempo" decks that can deal with your strong characters while applying preassure (Crane and maybe Scorpion). To get the value out of the Cards with inefficient stats, but awesome abilities you want to spend a lot of ressources to beef them up and have them around. So cards like Cloud the Mind, I can swim, Court Games and For Shame will hurt a lot. The phoenix has Shiba Yojimbo, but the card is too weak and doesn't even protect the three characters, that need the most protection (Shiba Tsukune, Asako Diplomat and Serene Warrior). To handle agressive rush decks you have Display of Power, Know the World and Way of the Phoenix to deny them the most devastating ring effects and because you most of the time play less characters than you oponent, you should get a fate lead early on.

I can't wait to see the scorpion to try to design some dishonor deck out of Phoenix. Bidding low will force the opponent to bid low as well, plus including some discard, should make the opponent having to choice between not having enough cards or losing more honor. The obvious problems are whether the Phoenix deck will also choke on having too few cards in hand and having a way to end the game when the opportunity arises (I hope scorpion can provide that needed punch).

Tsukune will be a beast. Her ability is so powerful that can completely change the way you play once she hits the table.

Anybody get any games in with these guys yet? I'm curious to hear about gameplay experiences. I'll share one thing I learned from mine: If you want to know who the Radiant Orator is wagging her finger at, it's totally Hida Kisada, and he's being put thoroughly in his place.

I don't know if this has been cleared up anywhere else but Shiba Yojimbo's reaction is worded in such a way that she stops "triggered abilities" rather than "action ability" which is on Kisada's card. The way I see it, Shiba Yojimbo can only stop abilities on cards in play, and not cards from hand. Otherwise, her ability will be worded the same as Kisada's, and for good reason: Kisada is a champion and should have a stronger ability than a nameless nobody.

7 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

I don't know if this has been cleared up anywhere else but Shiba Yojimbo's reaction is worded in such a way that she stops "triggered abilities" rather than "action ability" which is on Kisada's card. The way I see it, Shiba Yojimbo can only stop abilities on cards in play, and not cards from hand. Otherwise, her ability will be worded the same as Kisada's, and for good reason: Kisada is a champion and should have a stronger ability than a nameless nobody.

In AGoT triggered abilities are all abilities that start with a bold word. This includes also cards that get played from hand, but not passive abilities.

11 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

I don't know if this has been cleared up anywhere else but Shiba Yojimbo's reaction is worded in such a way that she stops "triggered abilities" rather than "action ability" which is on Kisada's card. The way I see it, Shiba Yojimbo can only stop abilities on cards in play, and not cards from hand. Otherwise, her ability will be worded the same as Kisada's, and for good reason: Kisada is a champion and should have a stronger ability than a nameless nobody.

I don't think this is the case. In the article they specifically point out 2 different play from hand event cards that can be foiled by shiba yojimbo. Though that said FFG spoiler articles do not always follow the rules of the games they are spoiling.

My guess and LCG experience makes me say the following

The big difference between triggered and action abilities is that action abilities are only those things that start with the word action. Whereas triggered abilities are actions, reactions, and interrupts. So in a way Yojimbo is stronger than Kisada though more limited in that he can only negate things targetting shugenja.

8 minutes ago, Ignithas said:

In AGoT triggered abilities are all abilities that start with a bold word. This includes also cards that get played from hand, but not passive abilities.

Fair enough. Wasn't familiar with AGoT rules.

6 minutes ago, Suzume Kazo said:

So in a way Yojimbo is stronger than Kisada though more limited in that he can only negate things targetting shugenja.

Not necessarily. I think the option to choose which ability you negate makes up for that. And here lies the problem. If we cannot say unanimously that Kisada's ability is stronger, then there is a design disparity. Me trying to deny this disparity is why I arrived in my previous conclusion about how Shiba Yojimbo's ability should work.

8 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

Fair enough. Wasn't familiar with AGoT rules.

Not necessarily. I think the option to choose which ability you negate makes up for that. And here lies the problem. If we cannot say unanimously that Kisada's ability is stronger, then there is a design disparity. Me trying to deny this disparity is why I arrived in my previous conclusion about how Shiba Yojimbo's ability should work.

Kisada could be called stronger because his action sees multiple uses.

4 minutes ago, RandomJC said:

Kisada could be called stronger because his action sees multiple uses.

And could be called weaker because his action can be easily played around (well, compared to the yojimbo that is).

If there supposedly is no mechanical difference between their negation, there is very little reason not to have their abilities worded the same. "Action ability" on yojimbo's card can fit grammatically well. All of these is moot though because of the AGoT ruling about triggered abilities.

The only thing left to say is congratulations to Phoenix. They have a similar ability from a clan champion on their nameless schmuck, only arguably stronger.

Just now, Shosuro Teri said:

If there supposedly is no mechanical difference between their negation, there is very little reason not to have their abilities worded the same. "Action ability" on yojimbo's card can fit grammatically well. All of these is moot though because of the AGoT ruling about triggered abilities.

There is a mechanical difference though. Kisada does not negate reactions or interrupts whereas yojimbo does negate them in addition to the action abilities which they both negate.

Here is an example in a combat with Kisada on the table I can spend my action to play a Hiruma ambusher from hand and use his reaction on someone else at the battlefield and Kisada can't stop it as no action ability was played.

In contrast if I play hiruma ambusher against Phoenix and try to remove the ability off a shugenja yojimbo can say no. This is because a reaction is a type of triggered ability so Yojimbo works.

8 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

And could be called weaker because his action can be easily played around (well, compared to the yojimbo that is).

If there supposedly is no mechanical difference between their negation, there is very little reason not to have their abilities worded the same. "Action ability" on yojimbo's card can fit grammatically well. All of these is moot though because of the AGoT ruling about triggered abilities.

The only thing left to say is congratulations to Phoenix. They have a similar ability from a clan champion on their nameless schmuck, only arguably stronger.

Or weaker because it only blocks abilities targeting Shugenja. They can do anything they want to Serene Warrior, Asako Diplomat, or Tsukune and Phoenix can't do anything about it. Those characters are very important ones too.

2 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

And could be called weaker because his action can be easily played around (well, compared to the yojimbo that is).

If there supposedly is no mechanical difference between their negation, there is very little reason not to have their abilities worded the same. "Action ability" on yojimbo's card can fit grammatically well. All of these is moot though because of the AGoT ruling about triggered abilities.

The only thing left to say is congratulations to Phoenix. They have a similar ability from a clan champion on their nameless schmuck, only arguably stronger.

Eh, Yojimbo is limited to once per phase, and only when targeted at a shugenja. Kisada prevents all kinds of action once per conflict. Both actions can be played around with, and I'd argue that Yojimbo is easier to play around with because I can still play my buffs, and I can target cards that aren't shugenja.

And the grammatical difference between action and triggered is like Suzume Kazo said, Yojimbo would target reactions and other effects like that. Kisada can't stop a "Hiruma Ambusher" because it's a reaction. The flip side of course is, a card like "Hiruma Ambusher" can attack just not pinging a shugenja and yojimbo can't do anything.

2 minutes ago, Suzume Kazo said:

There is a mechanical difference though. Kisada does not negate reactions or interrupts whereas yojimbo does negate them in addition to the action abilities which they both negate.

Here is an example in a combat with Kisada on the table I can spend my action to play a Hiruma ambusher from hand and use his reaction on someone else at the battlefield and Kisada can't stop it as no action ability was played.

In contrast if I play hiruma ambusher against Phoenix and try to remove the ability off a shugenja yojimbo can say no. This is because a reaction is a type of triggered ability so Yojimbo works.

Which is, of course, why you use his ability on Yojimbo.

Yoyimbo is also non-unique whereas Kisada is unique, which gives him a further edge: I don't think we've seen this so far in the previews, but in FFG LCGs being Unique often gives immunity to certain otherwise powerful cards (e.g. Archon's Terror).

I was just thinking: Imagine if there was a 3-cost character that could pull Kisada into a conflict that he didn't want to commit to and had no hope of winning (especially if that Clan excelled at Political conflicts), thus rendering his ability useless for the rest of the phase.... Na, probably a bit too strong...

6 minutes ago, Caldera said:

Yoyimbo is also non-unique whereas Kisada is unique, which gives him a further edge: I don't think we've seen this so far in the previews, but in FFG LCGs being Unique often gives immunity to certain otherwise powerful cards (e.g. Archon's Terror).

I was just thinking: Imagine if there was a 3-cost character that could pull Kisada into a conflict that he didn't want to commit to and had no hope of winning (especially if that Clan excelled at Political conflicts), thus rendering his ability useless for the rest of the phase.... Na, probably a bit too strong...

Well, a number of powerful effeccts only work on cheap characters, and Champions are not cheap!

5 hours ago, Suzume Kazo said:

There is a mechanical difference though. Kisada does not negate reactions or interrupts whereas yojimbo does negate them in addition to the action abilities which they both negate.

Here is an example in a combat with Kisada on the table I can spend my action to play a Hiruma ambusher from hand and use his reaction on someone else at the battlefield and Kisada can't stop it as no action ability was played.

In contrast if I play hiruma ambusher against Phoenix and try to remove the ability off a shugenja yojimbo can say no. This is because a reaction is a type of triggered ability so Yojimbo works.

Ok thanks! So there is a mechanical difference afterall, and surprisingly the difference leaned more in favor of the yojimbo because he works on a wider range of abilities than Kisada's.

Alot of people here are keen to point out that Kisada's ability is stronger since his tendency to work more than once. I feel like I can argue against that by saying if you can't win one conflict against Crab, I feel like your deck has bigger problems than Kisada screwing up your first action. And it's just your first action, so you practically can just throw the least important ability you can first and work your way from there, like most people do on their sample games. Timing has been the most crucial thing to consider among card games and targetted negation can mess with that.

Regardless, thanks for answering my rules question. It seems the disparity I was talking about was indeed there, so again congratulations to Phoenix. Atleast now I can expect an ability like Kakita Asami's to end up in some random scorpion pawn to make my dishonor dreams a reality.

12 hours ago, Ignithas said:

I think that the biggest problem will be "tempo" decks that can deal with your strong characters while applying preassure (Crane and maybe Scorpion). To get the value out of the Cards with inefficient stats, but awesome abilities you want to spend a lot of ressources to beef them up and have them around. So cards like Cloud the Mind, I can swim, Court Games and For Shame will hurt a lot. The phoenix has Shiba Yojimbo, but the card is too weak and doesn't even protect the three characters, that need the most protection (Shiba Tsukune, Asako Diplomat and Serene Warrior). To handle agressive rush decks you have Display of Power, Know the World and Way of the Phoenix to deny them the most devastating ring effects and because you most of the time play less characters than you oponent, you should get a fate lead early on.

Pending on the splash, some of the problem cards are answerable like Let Go for attachments or Voice of Honor for generic stuff. Most decks are going to feature a number of those neutral or commonly splashed cards too. The other defenses are things like more bodies (i.e. using more of the cheaper characters like the neutral Imperials or whatever the Naïve Student does) or focusing on side strategies like card discard/denial through Spies at Court or always bidding low because you have two holdings that draw you cards.

It will simply come down to testing to determine what avenues and archetypes the Phoenix find themselves in. Will a tempo based one win out or will a more mid-ranged top deck come out on top? Time to proxy those cards.

Actually I did some research and the card is not actually Steward of Law.

27 minutes ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

Actually I did some research and the card is not actually Steward of Law.

I dunno, looks legit, but the flavor text is photoshopped, I think. It's not in italics. Probably supposed to be some sort of reference to the Prime Directive.

8 hours ago, Shosuro Teri said:

It seems the disparity I was talking about was indeed there, so again congratulations to Phoenix. Atleast now I can expect an ability like Kakita Asami's to end up in some random scorpion pawn to make my dishonor dreams a reality.

But then, by the same token, Crane have access to attachments and events that can replicate Yojimbo's ability for 2-3 resources less. And Yojimbo is unlikely to be single-handedly breaking their opponent's province: It seems every Clan is getting at least one powerf 3-coster in the Core Set, and whilst Yojimbo is strong I'm not sure she is any stronger than her peers in this respect. Perhaps the revelation that Phoenix aren't as weak out the box as people expected has ruffled some feathers?!

10 hours ago, Caldera said:

But then, by the same token, Crane have access to attachments and events that can replicate Yojimbo's ability for 2-3 resources less. And Yojimbo is unlikely to be single-handedly breaking their opponent's province: It seems every Clan is getting at least one powerf 3-coster in the Core Set, and whilst Yojimbo is strong I'm not sure she is any stronger than her peers in this respect. Perhaps the revelation that Phoenix aren't as weak out the box as people expected has ruffled some feathers?!

Pray tell what these attachments and events that can negate any action that the Crane have access to? I haven't familiarized myself with the entire cards available yet.

Phoenix doesn't have to be weak out of the box, as some people expected. But according to FFG (for the life of me I can't remember where), Unique characters are supposed to have "powerful" abilities. I took this as a sign that their abilities are designed at a higher curve than non-uniques. Apparently I was wrong.

18 minutes ago, Shosuro Teri said:

Pray tell what these attachments and events that can negate any action that the Crane have access to? I haven't familiarized myself with the entire cards available yet.

Phoenix doesn't have to be weak out of the box, as some people expected. But according to FFG (for the life of me I can't remember where), Unique characters are supposed to have "powerful" abilities. I took this as a sign that their abilities are designed at a higher curve than non-uniques. Apparently I was wrong.

Guest of Honor, Above Question, Voice of Honor, are all negates.

Great cards. Not knowing what/if naive student does is driving me nuts. i hope we see it on the l5r live.