So there has been many "expandable" games that have gone dead or dropped after the company abandoned or went out of business. Some of you may recall back in 90s a company called Decipher, well much like what Sega was to Nintendo Decipher was Wizards of the Coast's main competitor back in the 90s, and Decipher held the license to both Star Trek and Star Wars. Well the company end up going defunct, and so did the games but that is not the end of said games. They are actually continuing on. Funny but it reminds me how often a community tends to pick up a fan loved project when the publisher/owner abandons it. It reminds me of some IPs like the 9th Age which is supposed to be the continuing of Warhammer 40,000 to include support for new models using more updated rule set from WHFB instead of Age of Sigmar. Even some video games like Renegade X was a C&C fan game when EA has all but abandoned the franchise.

Well Star Trek and Star Wars decipher games have been kept up in this manner also.

Star Trek the Customizable Card Game http://www.trekcc.org/

Star Wars the Customizable Card Game https://www.starwarsccg.org/

So if say FFG loses their license (in the same way as Warhammer 40,000 Conquest) do you think this is how X-wing will continue one (and just maybe, we will get our Assault Gunboat as well)?

I'd be shocked if FFG lose their license in the forseeable future, they're running 5 or more financially successful SW games, and that doesn't seem likely to change.

Renegade X is absolutely amazing. Fans have kept Command and Conquer alive for decades since EA has gone walkabout after Red Alert 2 in 2001.

I agree with thespaceinvader; I think Xwing is safe in the hands of ffg for a while. But if it ever ends...these models are gonna get soooo expensive.

Yeah I don't think X-wing is going away anytime soon, but what about 10 years from now say 2027? After all GW did pull the licenses all of a sudden when Conquest just barely made it into the market. So while the scenario is unlikely in the near future, that doesn't mean it is not inevitable. Disney did close down Lucas Arts when they bought it out after all, they can pull out at any time.

On 26/07/2017 at 8:41 PM, Marinealver said:

Yeah I don't think X-wing is going away anytime soon, but what about 10 years from now say 2027? After all GW did pull the licenses all of a sudden when Conquest just barely made it into the market. So while the scenario is unlikely in the near future, that doesn't mean it is not inevitable. Disney did close down Lucas Arts when they bought it out after all, they can pull out at any time.

Using GW, a tiny company which owns 2 or 3 IPs and licenses almost nothing, has historically had godawful management, and is generally pretty bad at business, as an example is pretty terrible. Their decision to pull their licenses from FFG was baffling at the time and remains baffling now.

Also Disney doesn't own FFG. Disney doesn't even own Asmodee. What they did with Lucasarts is irrelevant.

Stop spreading misinformation.

I could see it happening in 10 or 15 years' time, just because x-wing doesn't strike me as a game which can stand another ten years of the current model of 2 waves and 2 extras per year, indefinitely. Even with a film every year they're quickly running out of material, and the game is getting large enough to be unwieldy.

But I think it's far more likely that they would reboot the game, than close it down entirely.

13 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Using GW, a tiny company which owns 2 or 3 IPs and licenses almost nothing, has historically had godawful management, and is generally pretty bad at business, as an example is pretty terrible. Their decision to pull their licenses from FFG was baffling at the time and remains baffling now.

Also Disney doesn't own FFG. Disney doesn't even own Asmodee. What they did with Lucasarts is irrelevant.

Stop spreading misinformation.

I could see it happening in 10 or 15 years' time, just because x-wing doesn't strike me as a game which can stand another ten years of the current model of 2 waves and 2 extras per year, indefinitely. Even with a film every year they're quickly running out of material, and the game is getting large enough to be unwieldy.

But I think it's far more likely that they would reboot the game, than close it down entirely.

What? What are you trying to say?

Disney doesn't own FFG, no kidding. I didn't say that, I said that Disney own Star Wars and they can pull their license from FFG at any time just as Games Workshop pulled out their Warhammer 40,000 away from FFG. I didn't say Disney was going to shut down X-wing anytime soon. Not in the near future for certian.

But yeah 10-15 years from now is exactly what I am looking to discuss about hence the distance future ( and I am now aware I should have spelled it distant and not distance ). To be honest I believe X-wing will still be active 15 years from now. But again the possibility of Disney discontinuing their relationship with FFG over the Star Wars franchise and X-wing miniatures is always possibility. And like all good things, they do come to an end. Even Warhammer 40,000 with its 30+ years of the hobby business will come to an end, but that doesn't look like it is coming any time soon.

So back on topic. 15, 20, or 100 years from now, could the community take over X-wing miniatures after it has been discontinued by FFG? If so how would the community support it (taking a look at the discontinued CCGs as an example)?

13 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

Their decision to pull their licenses from FFG was baffling at the time and remains baffling now.

Its not baffling at all. X-Wing TMG had successfully outranked WH40k several times in gaming store sales rankings over the last few years, raining on GW's parade as the big man on campus. Also, things happening behind the scenes are telling. For instance, FFG publicly announces the Runewars Miniature Game on Aug 5, 2016 and publicly announces the loss of the GW license on Sept. 9,2016 . Now, the alpha development and decision to go public with Runewars TMG didn't happen overnight; they were working on that awhile. So obviously, they were already planning to compete with GW on the fantasy miniature wargame stage. Obviously, GW does not like that and uses their weight to lean on FFG to stop. FFG rebukes GW, GW pulls the license, FFG tells GW that they will see them on the field of battle, and here we are today.

tl;dr FFG became a competitor to GW's largest money makers with other games, so GW pulled its license from them.

Yea that's why they pulled it, but that doesn't mean it made any business sense. They were making more money through the license than they will now.

FFG was making more money with the license than GW was. When it comes to designing, producing, and selling the books and games, FFG got the lion share of the cash with some percentage thrown to GW for the name and IP use. Allowing them to continue would give FFG more benefit than what GW was getting from the business relationship.

It would literally be putting more money into the pocket of their current biggest competitor, funding that competitor's own expansion and taking more market share from GW in the miniature wargame market.

It made complete sense to yank the license, and I say this as someone who really loved FFGs work with the 40k RPGs and was very saddened by the action.

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2017 at 5:22 PM, Marinealver said:

So back on topic. 15, 20, or 100 years from now, could the community take over X-wing miniatures after it has been discontinued by FFG? If so how would the community support it (taking a look at the discontinued CCGs as an example)?

Mel's minis and something like the CCL.

Sheet, some of the best support for this game is already being done by private individuals (HotAC anyone?).

And to go off topic again, I can't see why anyone would want to keep up with the SWCCG from Decipher. Everything people complain about in XWM was there in spades: a few powerful cards (i.e., the Heroes) were all only ones used and Stormtrooper Commons made Llanowar Elves seem like gold. It was a poorly designed game IMHO--losing cards as life made the loser just lose harder with no chance of recovery. We played a homebrew that was nothing like how the game was supposed to be played. OTOH, I was very surprised (and mad--I was playing that game!!) to see Decipher loose the license just as all the prequel stuff was about to get made. No surprise that WotC got it however. . .and seemed to squander the IP as both a card game and RPG.

On 8/2/2017 at 6:42 PM, Darth Meanie said:

Mel's minis and something like the CCL.

Sheet, some of the best support for this game is already being done by private individuals (HotAC anyone?).

And to go off topic again, I can't see why anyone would want to keep up with the SWCCG from Decipher. Everything people complain about in XWM was there in spades: a few powerful cards (i.e., the Heroes) were all only ones used and Stormtrooper Commons made Llanowar Elves seem like gold. It was a poorly designed game IMHO--losing cards as life made the loser just lose harder with no chance of recovery. We played a homebrew that was nothing like how the game was supposed to be played. OTOH, I was very surprised (and mad--I was playing that game!!) to see Decipher loose the license just as all the prequel stuff was about to get made. No surprise that WotC got it however. . .and seemed to squander the IP as both a card game and RPG.

You are not going off topic since they were used as an example, as for your (maybe rhetorical/no ?) question; well there is some interest otherwise the site wouldn't exist at all. Yeah it wasn't balanced as it followed the old 90's system of "balance" where rare = better yet still the best deck wasn't rares but a lot of commons so it wasn't as bad for Star Wars (Star Trek was a little different. As for the life system I liked the economic aspects of it the difference between "used" and "lost" cards. Sure the game was in no such competitive state if compared with other TCGs like MTG. But hey this could be the custom card set up and then all we need is miniature support and the game can be kept alive after FFG and/or Disney pulls the plug (decades from now).

22 hours ago, kris40k said:

FFG was making more money with the license than GW was. When it comes to designing, producing, and selling the books and games, FFG got the lion share of the cash with some percentage thrown to GW for the name and IP use. Allowing them to continue would give FFG more benefit than what GW was getting from the business relationship.

It would literally be putting more money into the pocket of their current biggest competitor, funding that competitor's own expansion and taking more market share from GW in the miniature wargame market.

It made complete sense to yank the license, and I say this as someone who really loved FFGs work with the 40k RPGs and was very saddened by the action.

Until and unless GW start selling the games they pulled the licenses for, they were making more money out of them then, than they are now. By pulling the licenses they haven't affected FFG's competition for their business (i.e. RuneWars is still going, X-Wing is still going etc), and they've not brough any revenue at all into their own business, because those games aren't on sale any more.

The argument that they hurt their competitors by costing them cashflow is an interesting one, but I'm not sure it stands up; FFG took the bulk of the gross income from the arrangement, but they also paid all the costs. I doubt the margins were that amazing.

The counterargument would be that leaving the license in place was making them money at their competitors' expense.

Not to mention the loss of good will that they suffered by pulling the licenses, in particular the Fury of Dracula one which is now impossible to find except on the secondary market.

Or, to put it another way... if their competitor having the license was so bad for them why on earth did they hand out the license in the first place? It's not like FFG has made a secret of its publishing minis games, they've been doing it for around 15 years.

On ‎02‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 5:42 PM, kris40k said:

FFG was making more money with the license than GW was. When it comes to designing, producing, and selling the books and games, FFG got the lion share of the cash with some percentage thrown to GW for the name and IP use. Allowing them to continue would give FFG more benefit than what GW was getting from the business relationship.

It would literally be putting more money into the pocket of their current biggest competitor, funding that competitor's own expansion and taking more market share from GW in the miniature wargame market.

It made complete sense to yank the license, and I say this as someone who really loved FFGs work with the 40k RPGs and was very saddened by the action.

Not to mention that:

• When the original licenses were agreed, GW had just reigned in Black Library to concentrate purely on novels, and were looking for someone to 'hold on to' the just-started Dark Heresy series.
• They had also just stopped supporting a lot of boxed games and specialist games (albeit not completely killing the lines for a few years). In the last couple of years they have pointedly restarted this trend, with Blood Bowl and Warhammer Quest, making them a competitor to FFG's original core business (board games).
• FFG picked up the Star Wars license. I love 40k, but I fully understand that if you have X amount of publishing effort, and you have to decide how to distribute it between two Sci-Fi licenses, and one is Star Wars and the other is Not Star Wars, Not Star Wars can go [censored] itself. Dark Heresy Second Edition was a very polished update of the original but bloody **** was it phoned in by comparison to Edge Of The Empire and its successors.
• X-wing started FFG moving into miniatures wargaming, but the new Runewars Miniatures Game really put FFG as a direct competitor.
• FFG was bought by Asmodee, who are one of GW's really major rivals (having a very similar annual turnover). Having a company that is very much a primary rival having a subsidiary with access to a lot of your IP - when GW's self-owned IP is one of its unique selling points compared to companies that do licensed games - is a massive no-no. The fact that Warhammer Quest the revived board game and the co-op card game were essentially released simultaneously by two different companies would have been a big wakeup call.

Short version:

FFG moved into an area competing more with GW.

GW moved back into an area competing with FFG.

FFG was disinclined to put the effort into GW IP products, due to commitments to SW IP products (or their own stuff).

FFG was now owned by a major GW competitor

Essentially, the Licencing Deal was no longer especially workable from GW's perspective. Which is a shame.

On ‎03‎/‎08‎/‎2017 at 2:42 AM, Darth Meanie said:

Mel's minis and something like the CCL.

Sheet, some of the best support for this game is already being done by private individuals (HotAC anyone?).

And to go off topic again, I can't see why anyone would want to keep up with the SWCCG from Decipher. Everything people complain about in XWM was there in spades: a few powerful cards (i.e., the Heroes) were all only ones used and Stormtrooper Commons made Llanowar Elves seem like gold. It was a poorly designed game IMHO--losing cards as life made the loser just lose harder with no chance of recovery. We played a homebrew that was nothing like how the game was supposed to be played. OTOH, I was very surprised (and mad--I was playing that game!!) to see Decipher loose the license just as all the prequel stuff was about to get made. No surprise that WotC got it however. . .and seemed to squander the IP as both a card game and RPG.

Definitely.

SW is not so miniature-hungry a game that a 100 point squad of 3d-printed ships is unworkable, and - as long as a semi-official rules council is maintained, a common rules set and events can still be run.

Blood Bowl, for example, stayed a very successful game even during the period when it was not available from GW.

X-wing's rapid growth can be laid at the door, at least in part, of very well organised and supported organised play events, though, so you'd have to factor in losing that.

Not enough skulls.

In the grim darkness of the distant future, there is only skulls.

On 8/4/2017 at 3:26 AM, FTS Gecko said:

Not enough skulls.

In the grim darkness of the distant future, there is only skulls.

lol okay enough about GW they are gone and they took their IPs with them. What about if Disney pulls out, or any other decision that ends new waves for X-wing without say a 2.0. What would the community do to keep it up? Will they make new waves from 3d printed ships? Will they keep the same cards or will they update them like making Rookie pilots 20 points?

How will X-wing continue after FFG stops?

5 hours ago, Marinealver said:

How will X-wing continue after FFG stops?

Ask @MajorJuggler

And maybe @melminiatures

1 hour ago, FTS Gecko said:

Ask @MajorJuggler

And maybe @melminiatures

Sure if FFG drops X-wing or Disney pulls out I would be very interested in revamping the entire card set. I think the dials should stay the same. So there we go dials, or is there a way to change the dials while keeping X-wing as accessible as a miniatures game which no longer has official support from the copyright holders?

On 3 augustus 2017 at 2:39 AM, rubberduck said:

Difficult to see. Always in motion is the future.

I always interpreted that scene in the sense that Yoda knew exactly what was going to happen, but refused to tell Luke.

Right now, this game is doing amazingly well, so I'd be surprised if it dissapears any time soon. Sadly, most games that stop getting new releases lose their player base rather quickly, and with so many players gone, I'd probably just jump to whatever is the next big Star Wars game, as I feel like I've gotten my money's worth out of my collection (5 years of awesome gaming fun for a couple thousand bucks? I'll take it!)

However, if others in my local area do choose to keep the game alive, I am all for a consolidated and central way to do it!

I think we all can agree that the game is rather imbalanced. So what would be the easiest way to fix it in our new community-driven game? I would propose that we throw the errata/FAQ out the window, and just change the costs of the cards! Are pre-nerf Phantoms and Jumpmasters OP? Just make them cost 4 more credits! Are non-Biggs T-65s weak? Just make them cost 2 or 3 less! Then we could have a central community website where everyone votes for which cards are too powerful and which are too weak. Each month or two, the voting data could be compiled and costs adjusted. Custom cards could also be proposed, and once they got a hundred "likes", they would become part of the game (like in LEGO Ideas, formerly Cuusoo.)

Until then, I'll just keep playing the casual game the way FFG says to, ignoring tournaments, and playing HotAC as much as possible! This game is still very fun for me, so I'm not anxious for it to be over, but once it is, I will be very interested in seeing if something like this pops up!

Also note, I'm pretty sure we'll be able to use these forums to organize it for a while, since FFG seems to keep the forums open for Dust Miniatures games that haven't even been posted in for more than a year!