Ever since Wave 11 came out, scum has been declining dramatically. Mindlink has basically stopped seeing play (or will) going forward. I don't even think a scum player made top 8 at the FFG store championship?? My store championship last week was 4 rebels in the top 4. 31 players. 17 rebels, 7 scum, 7 imperials. The biggs list is dramatically warping the meta.

How else do they catch up a faction that was released late? Of course they have to pay more attention to that 3rd Faction.

3 hours ago, Thormind said:

People keep saying that but:

- The scums never struggled to be competitive. From the very beginning Bro-bots were at the top of the meta. They never needed a boost. Did they need more diversity? Yes. Does that justify going overboard with them and releasing so many OP stuff to a point where the game is starting to feel broken?

- How can you expect things to get better when FFG keeps releasing those powercreeps? If they had released only 1 or 2 ships like that and made rapid fixes we would understand. But when we know something is broken just by reading the preview articles, we have to wonder if any of this is not done voluntatily.

I didn't say scum wasn't competitive it was just not on top until Wave 9. First was the Imperials (TIE Swarm) then it was the Rebels (Fat Han), now it is Scum's turn (Jumpmasters).

Well almost been there and done that, but I found that taking a break from here and not participating in these conversations with people to bring my joy back. Go casual games and take it easy bud!

There is just no point in overanalyzing this game, let it go by it course and go play with your friends..

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Where do you get your informations from?? Scums performed well from the moment they got released. The only thing they were missing is diversity. Which was kind of normal...

First of all, Worlds 2015. 20ish % Scum at start (underplayed, not the best sign of a faction performing well) and 2 Scum lists in top 16 (one Brobots and one Thug life, with the Brobots making top 4), so 12.5%, therefore underperforming at the very top in this event.

Secondly, watching carefully the 2015 Regionals thread (I was wondering if I had made the right choice playing Scum at that point) and seeing how Scum was the faction with the least Regional wins every time I counted.

At my two SC's this weekend I faced a combined 5 rebel, 2 imperial, and 1 scum list. Even more funny is 3 of my 4 losses were to rebel lists.

But might have been pure coincidence, don't know the total number of lists for each faction present.

1 hour ago, Marinealver said:

I didn't say scum wasn't competitive it was just not on top until Wave 9. First was the Imperials (TIE Swarm) then it was the Rebels (Fat Han), now it is Scum's turn (Jumpmasters).

Scum started on wave 6 and were on top from the beginning. Unless you consider 2nd position not top? They were much ahead of Tie Swarms or Fat Han. When those 2 were top, there was only 2 factions....

41 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

First of all, Worlds 2015. 20ish % Scum at start (underplayed, not the best sign of a faction performing well) and 2 Scum lists in top 16 (one Brobots and one Thug life, with the Brobots making top 4), so 12.5%, therefore underperforming at the very top in this event.

Secondly, watching carefully the 2015 Regionals thread (I was wondering if I had made the right choice playing Scum at that point) and seeing how Scum was the faction with the least Regional wins every time I counted.

Numbers dont lie. The whole time (wave 6 release to wave 8 release) brobots remained 2dn or 3rd in the meta. With the release of TLTs Thug life took nd position. After only 2 waves of material (compared to 7 for the other 2 factions) you really think that being 2nd and 3rd of the meta and making the top 4 of the World Champ is underperforming??

Then you agree with all of us saying the Imperial nerf was too much... The best they can do now is 8th position of the meta (only 1 built in the top 10) and they only did 1 top 16 at the World this year... :-)

52 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Scum started on wave 6 and were on top from the beginning. Unless you consider 2nd position not top? They were much ahead of Tie Swarms or Fat Han. When those 2 were top, there was only 2 factions....

26 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Numbers dont lie. The whole time (wave 6 release to wave 8 release) brobots remained 2dn or 3rd in the meta. With the release of TLTs Thug life took nd position. After only 2 waves of material (compared to 7 for the other 2 factions) you really think that being 2nd and 3rd of the meta and making the top 4 of the World Champ is underperforming??

Then you agree with all of us saying the Imperial nerf was too much... The best they can do now is 8th position of the meta (only 1 built in the top 10) and they only did 1 top 16 at the World this year... :-)

Where are you getting your numbers? When it comes to lies you are not even putting any emphasis on the 3rd kind. (lies, damned lies, and statistics)

7 hours ago, Thormind said:

People keep saying that but:

- The scums never struggled to be competitive. From the very beginning Bro-bots were at the top of the meta. They never needed a boost. Did they need more diversity? Yes. Does that justify going overboard with them and releasing so many OP stuff to a point where the game is starting to feel broken?

- How can you expect things to get better when FFG keeps releasing those powercreeps? If they had released only 1 or 2 ships like that and made rapid fixes we would understand. But when we know something is broken just by reading the preview articles, we have to wonder if any of this is not done voluntatily.

I was there with Pepperridge farm at the start of scum. No. Bro bots was tip top meta but the rest was in need of help. Still kind of is. HWK is eh. Ys are limited beyond tlt spam. Zs don't get that much air time. Though they are fun.

58 minutes ago, Marinealver said:

Where are you getting your numbers? When it comes to lies you are not even putting any emphasis on the 3rd kind. (lies, damned lies, and statistics)

Look at the bottom of the first page of this thread. List juggler, the best source of valid and unbiased statistics. You can look at the meta from any time period you want. A forum threat is the least reliable source of information you can get...

15 hours ago, jmswood said:

I'm a casual Ace-winger. I deliberately limit my participation in tournaments. I used to be a 3-faction player. Splitting my time about 50-30-20 between Rebels, Empire and Scum respectively. A few months ago I quit Scum; sold all the Scum ships I could, traded others, and the remnants reside in my box of shame. I didn't do it out of anger. I lost interest in the ship types and pilot abilities.

I gradually developed some of the common complaints about Scum, but I was never bitter. I enjoyed the challenge of facing popular Scum builds with my home-brew Reb and Imp Aces lists. The anger started when Fantasy Flight announced Guns for Hire. The Vaksai and StarViper Mk2 titles in particular sparked my ire. For the first time I took the time to really compare Scum in detail to the other factions. The more I looked, the less I liked. I analyzed every release since Wave 6 and fumed over the developers' pro-Scum conspiracy.

I completely lost my cool after a close friend proxied some Guns for Hire content. The game loss didn't upset me. I made some squad building and gameplay mistakes. He played a smart, fair game and beat me. The rage came when he told me how many points he spent on Talonbane. I ranted about it to him, my other friends and the internet for a couple weeks. I swore I would never play another game with Scum at the table until FFG fixes everything I saw wrong with the game.

Wave 11 dropped. I cooled off in the excitement of new ships. I even considered swallowing my pride and lifting my Scum ban so my friend could run his Scum Nym against me.

Rage returned again today with the StarViper Mk2 preview. I beat the anti-Scum wardrum for hours in person and online. I threatened to flip a table if I ever saw Thweek on the opposing side. I started drafting my dissertation about the pro-Scum conspiracy. It was nearly complete when the copy-paste malfunctioned on my phone. Every word (and there were many) vanished into digital thin air. I nearly started composing it again from scratch when I realized I was allowing my emotions to run unchecked over an entertainment product. X-wing is something I do for fun with my friends. I was ruining fun and friendship by choosing to be personally offended by the developers' choices.

There is still a pro-Scum conspiracy. I'm just choosing to not rage against the Scumist Establishment. I will allow Scum to play on my kitchen table, and I might even play the faction again someday.

Rage? It's a bloody game. Fly better

1 minute ago, FrightfulCommand said:

I was there with Pepperridge farm at the start of scum. No. Bro bots was tip top meta but the rest was in need of help. Still kind of is. HWK is eh. Ys are limited beyond tlt spam. Zs don't get that much air time. Though they are fun.

The rest? Just one ship performing that well out of only 4 Xpac is really good. Palob (HWK) made a top 4 at the last world and Thug life has been a steady performer ever since TLT release (and still is). As for Zs, i think everyone agrre on that. Though Ndru might have been improved a little by cruise missiles.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

Numbers dont lie. The whole time (wave 6 release to wave 8 release) brobots remained 2dn or 3rd in the meta. With the release of TLTs Thug life took nd position. After only 2 waves of material (compared to 7 for the other 2 factions) you really think that being 2nd and 3rd of the meta and making the top 4 of the World Champ is underperforming??

Numbers don't lie indeed, and my numbers happen to tell a different story.

Also, I never claimed Scum was underperforming for a significantly newer faction (in retrospect, now I happen to think it was rather normal for Scum to be weaker given that it was newer and how FFG's design approach works).

I claimed Scum was underperforming compared to Rebels and Empire. If you dig through tournament results between waves 6 and 8, you will see Scum winning least of all 3 factions.

25 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

Numbers don't lie indeed, and my numbers happen to tell a different story.

Also, I never claimed Scum was underperforming for a significantly newer faction (in retrospect, now I happen to think it was rather normal for Scum to be weaker given that it was newer and how FFG's design approach works).

I claimed Scum was underperforming compared to Rebels and Empire. If you dig through tournament results between waves 6 and 8, you will see Scum winning least of all 3 factions.

And what was their representation as a total player count? If 10% of the player base is winning 20% of the places.....

7 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Brobots were never at the top of the meta, IMO at least. They were a very good list, but once the novelty factor wore off they always felt close, but a little bit weaker than the top Rebel and Imperial lists. Even at the height of the Brobots, Scum was the underperforming faction.

I get they were never played as much as they deserved, but holy hell are they powerful. When I started playing I went 8/0 with homebrew brobots as a new player, then stopped playing them because I didn't like watching my friends faces while they were both arc dodged and outgunned by my Bully-Bros list. An IG is basically a Tie Defender with a better dial, absurdly better pilots, better upgrade slots and the 2 extra HP, for basically the same price(going by pilot skill). people just don't get how to flank and hose with the 90* segnors loop

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Look at the bottom of the first page of this thread. List juggler, the best source of valid and unbiased statistics. You can look at the meta from any time period you want. A forum threat is the least reliable source of information you can get...

Your evidence does not support your argument. Wave 6 Brobots were the only competitive build Scum had so of course they show up almost 1/3 of the list (assuming almost 1/3 play scum and an even split of players between the three factions). But again that wasn't part of the split. The Rebels came out on top and it wasn't even TLT spam, it was half tlt (which was the atanni mindlink of that time) as for TLT Rebels had them too sure Scum had the best Quad TLT List but when it came to the list Rebels were at the top in the age of Heaver. Top 4 were scum (brobots) and Palp Aces. Top 8 had 2 more rebels (with turrets) another Palp Ace and a Thug TLT.

2nd place no, caught up with Imperials yes, you can see the start of the Imperial Decline in 2015 but again it was Rebels who were on TOP with Scum and Imperials biting at the ankles in the top 4 and 8.

Also the thread is from one of the creators of list juggler so I call the source fairly legit.

16 hours ago, LordBlades said:

I claimed Scum was underperforming compared to Rebels and Empire. If you dig through tournament results between waves 6 and 8, you will see Scum winning least of all 3 factions.

If that was the cas they wouldnt have had the 2nd built of the meta (between wave 6-7) and 2nd-3rd (between wave 7-8).

15 hours ago, Shockwave said:

And what was their representation as a total player count? If 10% of the player base is winning 20% of the places.....

Exactly. What makes Juggler so reliable is the fact they rate builds using different factors than just the total # of win. For example people said scums represented only 20% of the player count at World 2015 but with fewer people they still managed to make a top 4. Having fewer representation only after a few month of a new faction release is totally normal. Not all player invest in all factions. Some have limited budget or simply want to focus on.

The problems arise when a faction has good representation but still cant manage to have reliable results (Imperials) or when a faction is overly represented and is getting much higher win % (scums).

Even if scum would have struggled in the beginning (they were not, just making a point), does that justify going overboard with them and making the faction OP? Thats not how you balance and it's just bad design.

I don't really see faction identity in this game, especially given the diverse array of ships and things barely following unique trends (rebels have Regen? Scum have some special upgrades?)

big problem is peopleconflate the faction with a few busted ships (jm5k) and work themselves into an unnecessary tizzy thinking ffg favors scum for whatever arbitrary reason, leading to incredibly silly assumptions like OMG DEADEYE SCURRG NEW DEADEYE SCOUT

Deep breaths, people. Scum as a whole isn't busted and we shouldn't becomplaining when, shock, new ships are actually worth using competitively. We SHOULD do more about the jumpster, though

15 hours ago, Marinealver said:

Your evidence does not support your argument. Wave 6 Brobots were the only competitive build Scum had so of course they show up almost 1/3 of the list (assuming almost 1/3 play scum and an even split of players between the three factions). But again that wasn't part of the split. The Rebels came out on top and it wasn't even TLT spam, it was half tlt (which was the atanni mindlink of that time) as for TLT Rebels had them too sure Scum had the best Quad TLT List but when it came to the list Rebels were at the top in the age of Heaver. Top 4 were scum (brobots) and Palp Aces. Top 8 had 2 more rebels (with turrets) another Palp Ace and a Thug TLT.

You dont understand the data you are seeing.

Here is how it works: http://meta-wing.com/about

Juggler meta annalyser does not show you # of win, it bases the rankings on win % and gives more importance to bigger events. The fact that they show up more doesnt matter in the ranking if they do not have good and reliable results. A ship with poor representation but good results (especially at major events) will be ranked higher than a ship with good presence but lower win ratio (or poorer performance at major events).

16 hours ago, Marinealver said:

2nd place no,

Euu yes? Brobots were in 2nd place of the meta. Did you look at the links i provided?

The Imperials cant manage a top 4 with 11 wave of materials. The scums managed that only a few months after release with only 2 waves of products. Sorry but no matter how you look at it thats not poor results at all. Contradictarily to what some scum players are pretending, their problem was never performance but only lack of diversity. Which was totally normal and was meant to improve with time.

19 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Juggler meta annalyser does not show you # of win, it bases the rankings on win % and gives more importance to bigger events. The fact that they show up more doesnt matter in the ranking if they do not have good and reliable results. A ship with poor representation but good results (especially at major events) will be ranked higher than a ship with good presence but lower win ratio (or poorer performance at major events).

Actually the ranking is weighted with the appearance of the list archetype. If you turn off the "widespread use = more magic" filter, Brobots drops to #119 from #2 (wave 6).

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

If that was the cas they wouldnt have had the 2nd built of the meta (between wave 6-7) and 2nd-3rd (between wave 7-8).

According to which metric?

What exactly is the link you posted measuring to rank the builds? It's a bit unclear to me what's behind that 'magic' rating.

EDIT: nvm: found the formula.

1 hour ago, Ubul said:

Actually the ranking is weighted with the appearance of the list archetype. If you turn off the "widespread use = more magic" filter, Brobots drops to #119 from #2 (wave 6).

It has to be taken into account for only 1 reason: builds with 1 presence (or few) and 1 good result (or few) immediately raises to the top positions . You need a minimum of presence/use to evaluate properly how something performs. Its explained in the link i provided: http://meta-wing.com/about But thats just logical...

This is what happens when you do what you are suggesting: http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2015-02-26&ranking_end=2015-08-25&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=false&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

Look at how many 1-2 presence builds you have before brobots. The top 10 is entirely composed of builds that had only 1 or 2 presence and did good that 1 (or 2) time.

The end result (with the filter) is still the builds with higher win ratio (especially at major events) are ranked higher. Look at the results with the filter, RAC is ranked higher than Brobots but with only 186 squad used compared to 334.

On top of that scums had BY FAR the most played build of all factions. It remained like that from their release (wave 6) to today. If the faction was so bad, how did it manage to get the most played builds AND be in the top positions of the meta from release to today without any interuption?? They have been in 2nd position for 2 waves and 1st for the last 4 waves.

Most played builts and best position in the meta:

- Wave 6 to 7: Brobots most player built by far. Best scum built in 2nd position

- Wave 7 to 8: Brobots most played built by far. Best scum built in 2nd position

- Wave 8 to 9: Brobots most played built with triple scouts 2nd (both by far). Best scum built in 1st position

- Wave 9 to wave 10: Commonwealth defender, triple defender most played with Dengaroo 3rd. The 3 were really close to each other. Best scum built in 1st position

- Wave 10 to wave 11: Parattani by far. Best scum built in 1st position. The top 5 positions are scum only.

- Wave 11 to today: Dengar/Nym. Best scum built in 1st position

Just wait until Guns for Hire. No point in even having other factions, Scum will be able to do it all! Aces, Arc-Dodging, Bombs, Triple Large ships, Stress Lists, Regen, Alpha Strike- all at S and A Tier level. One faction to rule them all.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

It has to be taken into account for only 1 reason: builds with 1 presence (or few) and 1 good result (or few) immediately raises to the top positions . You need a minimum of presence/use to evaluate properly how something performs. Its explained in the link i provided: http://meta-wing.com/about But thats just logical...

I am aware of that. I just pointed out an error in your argument: You claimed that the representation of the certain list is not important in the ranking. It is.

Brobots was the only really viable Scum list at that time, so almost every Scum players brought them to tourneys. Meanwhile the other two factions distributed among several list types. As a result, Brobots were overrepresented, and since the stats you are looking at weighted with representation, the end result is distorted. So your claim - brobots was the second best list - is questionable, and the listjuggler does not prove it.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

Look at how many 1-2 presence builds you have before brobots. The top 10 is entirely composed of builds that had only 1 or 2 presence and did good that 1 (or 2) time.

OK, lets filter out every list with < 1% presence. Only 7 lists remains, with the following ranking:

1. Fat Han
2. KyloRac
3. Corran Dash
4. BBBBZ
5. Phantom/Lambda/Interceptor
6. Whisper+Deci
7. Brobots

Brobots has the highest representation amongst these build (5.42%), that's why it jumps up to 2nd place if you turn the filter on.

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

The end result (with the filter) is still the builds with higher win ratio (especially at major events) are ranked higher. Look at the results with the filter, RAC is ranked higher than Brobots but with only 186 squad used compared to 334.

As I pointed out before: The end result comes from the combination of win ratio AND number of squads (and size of tournament).

1 hour ago, Thormind said:

If the faction was so bad

I never said that the faction was bad.