Here's a weird one:

Precision: "You may ignore 1 figure or obstacle when tracing line of sight for a Ranged or Magic attack."

Pit: "While in a pit, a figure has no line of sight to any other spaces." (JitD) "Figures in a pit can see into the spaces adjacent to the pit." (FAQ/errata)

Can a hero use the Precision skill to ignore a pit obstacle that the hero is currently standing in and thereby attack spaces that are farther away from the pit?

Pits are obstacles, and Precision doesn't say you may trace line-of-sight through one obstacle that would otherwise block it, it says you may ignore one obstacle. By RAW, this looks OK to me.

Antistone said:

Yep. It's a weird one, but you get those every now and again if you don't want a 50 page rulebook.

Why is that a weird one?

You simply don´t have extended LoS while in a pit due to the pit rules. LoS is not obstructed by the pit obstacle (it is ´obstructed´ by the special pit rule), thus you cannot ignore it via Precision.

which is bound to the pit. which you can ignore while tracing line of sight. the pit is a lie.

please explain yourself. when there is no pit, how can there be a special pit rule?

My answer doesn't have much weight in the rules, but it's my understanding that when tracing line of sight you count all the spaces between you and the target, including the target's spaces but not including yours. I would say you can't ignore the pit you're standing in because it's not in one of the spaces you're tracing LoS through. Of course, if you were standing in a double or triple space pit and the other spaces it occupies were in line with your shot, then this wouldn't hold up. It's already been established (iirc) that you can ignore an entire multi-space obstacle using Precision.

So now I'm torn. On the one hand I want to say "no you can't" (there are oh so many things I'd like to say that to), but on the other hand I like to keep things simple and disallowing this trick for single space pits while being forced to potentially allow it for multi-space pits is certainly not simple.

I suppose I'd have to agree that it's allowed after all. One more reason for me to sit down and rewrite the rules from the ground up so they make sense without breaking game balance, I suppose.

Rather peculiar indeed It does make quite some sense though, a hero with Precision is just good at peeking around obstacles - I see no reason why that should not include peeking out of pits.

Turric4n said:

Yet another strange post from you...

I repeat myself: LoS is never obstructed by a pit - can we agree that much? Or is there any rule that says that a pit does block LoS ?

You cannot ignore something that doesn´t hinder you in the first place (ok, you can, but it doesn´t affect anything).

Parathion said:

DJitD pg16/17
Pit markers do not block line of sight, ...
While in a pit, a figure has no line of sight to any other spaces. (FAQ pg1 Figures in a pit can see into the spaces adjacent to the pit.)

Precision
You may ignore 1 figure or obstacle when tracing line of sight for a Ranged or Magic attack.

The thing is, Precision doesn't allow you to 'see through' something that blocks LOS. If that is what it did then Parathion would be right. However Precision allows you to ignore one obstacle when tracing LOS.
The pit is still an obstacle, so while you are tracing LOS you may ignore the pit, even though it does not block LOS. You could also (instead) ignore one sarcophagi, throne, table etc and remove elevation, for example.
If you ignore the pit, you treat everything as though there was no pit (while tracing LOS for a ranged or magic attack). If there is no pit, then you aren't restricted by the pit rules.

The pit does hinder you btw - not by blocking LOS but by limiting LOS out of it to one space range.

Still a weird one...

It' a tricky one. I don't think it was meant to work this way, the pit doesn't block line of site and if you're in a pit the others see you it's just that you can't see them and you are not elevated below the ground so i guess you can use it. But again i think precision wasn't meant to do that .

exactly what corbon said.

Steve-O said:

Even if the first part is true, I don't see how the second part follows. Precision doesn't say "ignore one obstacle that you are tracing LOS through," it just says "ignore one obstacle."

If you're putting this way you can choose to ignore the pit, but the pit doesn't block the line (that is a fact) . It is a trap that exist on the field, if you fall in it bad luck , you can't use precision to avoid falling in the pit (the falling is what causing you to loose sight), if you're in then the rules applies. Not the pit blocks the line of sight but the falling.

Precision: "You may ignore 1 figure or obstacle when tracing line of sight for a Ranged or Magic attack."

when tracing line of sight is the moment to use the ability, but you already have line of sight 1.

okay. i am adjacent to a rubble token. i trace line of sight. its zero. i ignore the rubble token but my line of sight distance is already zero?

How about Precision vs Fog and Precision vs "Your Target is in a Tree"?

If Precision lets you shoot out of a pit, I would certainly expect it to let you shoot through fog.

The Shadowcloak ability doesn't work by blocking LOS, though--you can target an attack at a tree space with a figure in it with or without Precision, the figure just won't be affected by the attack. Similarly, using Precision to ignore a figure so that you can target a Blast attack behind them won't prevent that figure from being affected by the attack if they're in the blast radius; you only ignore them when determining LOS.

I wonder if you can use Precision to ignore a rubble for purposes of tracing LOS for the blast radius...

The pit is not what's blocking line of sight - the level ground next to the pit is. anything else doesn't make sense. you want to fire into a pit, you need to be standing on the edge. its pretty simple if you ask me.

Chernobyl said:

Unless you can let the shot into the pit by means of spin and exploiting currents in the air. Kinda like Luke Skywalker did with the Death Star. Which is exactly what Precision means: Being a jedi with shooty stuff.

Chernobyl said:

Actually, according to Descent if you want to fire into a pit, all you need is a straight line to the target. Pit rules limit a figure's LoS out of a pit, but they say nothing about limiting other figures' LoS into the pit. Welcome to the madness that is Descent.

A figure 6 spaces away can take a crack at an enemy standing in a pit with a magic or ranged weapon, but the enemy inside the pit can't retaliate. The enemy in the pit also blocks LoS to targets on the opposite side even though he's in the pit. There are no rules for the 3rd dimension in Descent, except one vague reference for boulders.

Antistone said:

You mean how rubble normally stops a blast radius from expanding, but if you ignored this piece of rubble would the blast go through it? You certainly have a gift for breaking this game, sir. I have to admire that.

To answer the question, I'd say yes. Precision ignores LoS "for the attack" and blast radii rely on "LoS" to determine whether or not they get stopped prematurely. Blast is a special case where you're calculating LoS more than once in a single attack, but you get to ignore this obstacle for LoS "for the attack" so I think you're good. I would imagine the same applies for templates like Breath, although they generally don't have as much to worry about in the first place.

It´s not the hero with Precision who has to trace LoS to the center of the Blast to determine affected figures, it is a figure in a potentially affected space. A clear "No" in my book.

Parathion said:

+1

And if the two of us agree, grab yer coats in hell boys, its gonna be a cold one.

Corbon said:

+1

Technically, the affected space traces LoS, but yeah, still "No".

Parathion said:

Good point.

I still suspect that rule is going to be reversed if FFG is ever confronted with it (it currently allows explosions to radiate out from inside pits, but not into them from outside, which seems unlikely to be intended), but as the rules currently stand, that looks like a good answer.

Turric4n said:

Not how I think of it. Zero would mean YOUR space. A rubble token in a space adjacent to you is 1 space away.