If you play Rebels and you see an ISD I your first priority should be to stay out of its front arc and out of close range. This didn't change and the Rebel ships have the means to manage this (maybe the AFMK2 is an exception but that shouldn't really get into blue range either).

An AvengerBT won't have Gunnery Team or Ordnance Experts. Its side arc is a fairly "safe" place to be, more so than it would be if it has either of those cards.

Sure, it's new, strange to play against, but far from OP. It just makes avoiding the front arc even more significant, that's all. Just because a combo makes a ship more potent I don't see any reason to nerf it.

Heck, where's clon's threat radius post at, I can't seem to find it. I think maybe some people need a refresher that close-range Imperial front arcs have 95% of the time always meant death for anything below an AF.

25 minutes ago, ianediger said:

Heck, where's clon's threat radius post at, I can't seem to find it. I think maybe some people need a refresher that close-range Imperial front arcs have 95% of the time always meant death for anything below an AF.

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/clontroper5-lets-analyse-threat-range/

9 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

https://archiveofossus.wordpress.com/2017/04/22/clontroper5-lets-analyse-threat-range/

Thanks gink

Hondo with a BT Avenger means your opponent has no way to counter the squad token. Slicer and ICB do nothing.

I think I found the best use for Hondo.

5 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Hondo with a BT Avenger means your opponent has no way to counter the squad token. Slicer and ICB do nothing.

I think I found the best use for Hondo.

A veteran captain would do as well...

3 minutes ago, Maturin said:

A veteran captain would do as well...

Vet Captain is probably better, since it always works, but Hondo means you have to have first player. And I know, I know, this combo should be used first player, so on and so forth, but you shouldn't plan for when things work, but for when they fail.

I absolutely plan for when things fail, I really good at that I'm can usually pull out a Win. It is those respectable MoV that illude me. Seems like I need to table my opponent to avoid a 6-5 "victory" most games. (This may just be a problem with my play style.)

Back on topic, a MC80 CC with Phylon Q7s should be able to keep an ISD at medium range long enough to make things interesting.

Or this is just another reckless tactic that will net me another 6-5.

14 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Those discussions happened because people struggled against those builds and ships. People don't discuss those normally because they already know how to deal with them. Despite what people think on the forums, you don't get struck with enlightenment and know every single counter in the game. It's trial and error and talking it out with other people.

The difficulty is making a list that is competitive against Demo, Ackbar, Sloane, Admo, and now BT Avenger. As it is now, BT Avenger has the best shot at killing any of the ships I mentioned with NO RETALIATION. It takes 8 damage to kill Demo, 12 to kill an MC80, 8 to kill a Quasar, and 7+2 to kill Admo (discard a token to prevent 2). Sure, taking 7 activations might help, but Avenger is still going last/first, so there is a reasonable chance it can kill your flots and then an MC30. And you can't threaten an MC30 by moving it up to an ISD I because it will be going first, so it kills you or it escapes.

This is what the discussion should be about. If you are faced with a 7 activation, BT Avenger list at a tournament with whatever you bring, wtf are you gunna do about it. I just made a list with an ISD I, JJ, BT, Avenger, Demo+APT+OE, 2 FT Raiders and 3 Goz with a 21 point bid. It's pretty simple. Demo and ISD go last at the end of a round, then ISD BT kills something, assuming Demo is in no danger, it goes last then first, effectively wiping 2 ships off the board.

The answer is not, "gid gud", "why don't you already know the counter scrub", or "duh take upgrade X". I'll remind everyone what happened when IFF said flots were a problem and how everyone jumped on the band wagon of telling them to take H9 or IO, or why they don't have a Raider or CR90B hunting down the flot.

Telling people to simply "avoid the front" is such a BS answer. You can't avoid it when it goes last. I know because I use the same tactics with my Vic and Glad list. I can set up 2 ships at long and use GT and DC to drop 6 dice on both. It's very hard to come back from losing 2 ships in a single attack.

Does no one think it is weird that people acknowledge BT Avenger has a very good chance at killing a full health MC80 with a double arc? And then say "Yea, looks good. This isn't an issue." What?? This isn't with Sloane or squads or bombers, like @thecactusman17 mentioned. It's a 118 point ship, that has an average of 10.25 damage with a double arc. Idk about the rest of you, but that is pretty **** worrisome. A least with Demo going last/first triple tap, I have some say with defense tokens and how/where damage is going. With Admo H9, I can take ECM to mitigate the damage.

Idk what the answer is @IronNerd, but I for sure as hell know it's not the suggestions that people are throwing out here in this thread. This is going to be a repeat of the flot argument on how OP they are and why aren't you taking upgrade X to beat it.

Undead sums up the whole argument. Yet people carry on talking about "bring bombers" "stay out of its arc"....

I don't know the answer to IronNerd's question either, personally I think its an exploitation of the activation mechanic which is the issue. Not an easy one to solve, without changing the rules. Its funny how we had similar discussions about Demo/engine tech, flotilla lifeboats and guess what? They got Errated.
I can only hope that in the future they solve the action advantage in the game, for me it denies the opposition tactical decisions by just activating an 18pth-21pt ship on the other side of the board. Hardly a "skillful" choice is it? Its not really a game of skill when you an force an opponents hand and they can't do anything about it.

15 hours ago, Undeadguy said:

Does no one think it is weird that people acknowledge BT Avenger has a very good chance at killing a full health MC80 with a double arc? And then say "Yea, looks good. This isn't an issue." What?? This isn't with Sloane or squads or bombers, like @thecactusman17 mentioned. It's a 118 point ship, that has an average of 10.25 damage with a double arc.

It seems that this is one of the main issues here. I personally don't find it an issue at all. Even before boarding troopers, ISD1 Avenger with a double arc had a good chance of killing that MC80 (especially with a Supressor nearby). It did require some skill to set it up, but the option was there. And lets remember - this is 120+ points ship, so it's punch is in line with the cost.

How is it different from Yavaris double-tapping BWings (with <100 pts total cost) that were also eating a ship per round?

I assume that BT made Avenger play easier and more accessible but it's still a one-shot fleet that is easy to counter as long as you know that its coming and are prepared for it. It does require a different thinking and deos punish some builds/tactics, however i personally doesn't see that as an issue.

I can see extreme last-first schenagians to be an issue in general, but its going to be a different topic with no easy answer, I'm afraid.

28 minutes ago, PT106 said:

It seems that this is one of the main issues here. I personally don't find it an issue at all. Even before boarding troopers, ISD1 Avenger with a double arc had a good chance of killing that MC80 (especially with a Supressor nearby). It did require some skill to set it up, but the option was there. And lets remember - this is 120+ points ship, so it's punch is in line with the cost.

How is it different from Yavaris double-tapping BWings (with <100 pts total cost) that were also eating a ship per round?

I assume that BT made Avenger play easier and more accessible but it's still a one-shot fleet that is easy to counter as long as you know that its coming and are prepared for it. It does require a different thinking and deos punish some builds/tactics, however i personally doesn't see that as an issue.

I can see extreme last-first schenagians to be an issue in general, but its going to be a different topic with no easy answer, I'm afraid.

I do not concur. A BT Avenger needs 12 damage to kill a MC80H1 in one activation. An Avenger with a Suppressor that exhausts the brace, needs 19 damage (14 with Xi7) and won't get crits. The BT Avenger quite likely kills the MC80H1 in one activation, the one without BT most likely not.

I do concur that last/first is by far a bigger problem. But both have something in common: Where last/first fleets, although they don't win major tournaments at the moment, by their very existence limit fleet building options for everyone (low activation gets you killed), the BT Avenger does something similar: I don't even dream of taking a large base rebel ship to a competitive environment any more. In CC this is even a bigger problem, because being first can be guaranteed.

I also concur that FC-FCT Yavaris is a problem. I don't consider it to be as big as BT Avenger. However, even if it was: balancing problems with new ones seem to me to be the wrong way.

What some of the complaining players miss here is that just because a new tough guy appeared on the field it doesn't mean the game is over. You only have to change your strategy and avoiding the front arc top priority, even sacrificing tempting opportunities for it. Sure AvengerBT helps your opponent because it forces you to keep your distance at all cost (or cleverly sacrefice one small ship for a greater good), but that doesn't mean you can't win. If he has Avenger he most likely will have some weaker ships, kill those! You can count on it that Avenger will destroy SOMETHING, so you have to plan accordingly. I agree, it is very hard indeed to plan your strategy around sacreficing something in exchange for blowing up even more points of his fleet, but it is far from impossible. And that's the best poart of Armada, when you can beat the odds. Sure it's easy to win against a fleet which is weak against yours, but if your opponent has the upper hand, that's the real challenge.

7 minutes ago, Darth Veggie said:

I do not concur. A BT Avenger needs 12 damage to kill a MC80H1 in one activation. An Avenger with a Suppressor that exhausts the brace, needs 19 damage (14 with Xi7) and won't get crits. The BT Avenger quite likely kills the MC80H1 in one activation, the one without BT most likely not.

Note here that OE Avenger has a very good chance of dealing that 19 damage in double arc. BTAs chances of 12 are slimmer and theoretically can roll blanks more likely than OE Avenger.

2 minutes ago, Norell said:

Note here that OE Avenger has a very good chance of dealing that 19 damage in double arc. BTAs chances of 12 are slimmer

That is more than 1,5 average damage per die. OE does not even do that statistically for black dice. By far not for a mix of black, red and blue. And all of this presumes that you get suppressor in the right spot.

1 hour ago, Darth Veggie said:

That is more than 1,5 average damage per die. OE does not even do that statistically for black dice. By far not for a mix of black, red and blue. And all of this presumes that you get suppressor in the right spot.

BT Avenger deals 11.58 damage on average with Leading Shots and double arc (actually less as LS doesnt allow to reroll side arc shots). A single arc shot is unlikely to kill MC80 as it'll do 7.25 damage on average (and will kill mc80 only 2% of the time even with a ram)

On the other hand double arc OE Avenger will do 11.48 average damage and (assuming XI7 and ram) will kill that MC80 35% of the time (while BT Avenger without leading shots will do 10.24 avg damage with double arc and kill that mc80 with 45% certainty)

2 hours ago, PT106 said:

It seems that this is one of the main issues here. I personally don't find it an issue at all. Even before boarding troopers, ISD1 Avenger with a double arc had a good chance of killing that MC80 (especially with a Supressor nearby). It did require some skill to set it up, but the option was there. And lets remember - this is 120+ points ship, so it's punch is in line with the cost.

How is it different from Yavaris double-tapping BWings (with <100 pts total cost) that were also eating a ship per round?

I assume that BT made Avenger play easier and more accessible but it's still a one-shot fleet that is easy to counter as long as you know that its coming and are prepared for it. It does require a different thinking and deos punish some builds/tactics, however i personally doesn't see that as an issue.

I can see extreme last-first schenagians to be an issue in general, but its going to be a different topic with no easy answer, I'm afraid.

That's the issue though. Players who look at it and say "Well that's not a problem for me, so it's not a problem for the game." Remember when the vast majority of people thought Rieekan Aces was fine and then it took 6/8 spots at Worlds? Just because you, myself and a handful of other players can beat the list, does not mean BT Avenger will be meta defining, not does it mean the combo is balanced. The difference between any other combo you can name and BT Avenger, is the simplicity of setting it up. It's an ISD I taking a squad token first round, deploying speed 2, Nav second round, maybe go up to speed 3, and by then it's already near your opponents deployment zone.

Yavaris has a lot of moving parts. Make sure Yavaris is at medium of the squads, make sure the squads are at 1 of a ship, make sure you can actually attack the ship. Yavaris is a rather fragile ship too. Or you can kill the squads. Or you can Slice Yavaris. Or you can engage the squads so they can't FCT.

Demo is most comparable to BT Avenger, with the exception that the defender can still use defense tokens and have some say in what happens. Players don't struggle as much against it because Glads can be easy to kill. Or you sac a ship to it to delay. Which you can't do to an ISD I. You can drop a ship in front of it, hoping it's going to survive and force a ram.

I'm calling it now. BT Avenger will be the list to beat.

I'd just like to add:

BT Avenger isn't strictly a 1st player tool.

It's also a great piece as 2nd player. A combination of a big "don't go here" sign and and excellent way of setting up some good forks.

You just need to have more than the 1 threat tho (I'm not very fond of those kinds of lists - even if they can be very effective).

3 hours ago, PT106 said:

I can see extreme last-first schenagians to be an issue in general, but its going to be a different topic with no easy answer, I'm afraid.

2 hours ago, Darth Veggie said:

I do concur that last/first is by far a bigger problem. But both have something in common: Where last/first fleets, although they don't win major tournaments at the moment, by their very existence limit fleet building options for everyone (low activation gets you killed), the BT Avenger does something similar: I don't even dream of taking a large base rebel ship to a competitive environment any more. In CC this is even a bigger problem, because being first can be guaranteed.

I feel like more and more, this is what we are actually arguing about. First/Last.

8 hours ago, GiledPallaeon said:

Vet Captain is probably better, since it always works, but Hondo means you have to have first player. And I know, I know, this combo should be used first player, so on and so forth, but you shouldn't plan for when things work, but for when they fail.

Failing that the Avenger BT is near toothless second player. All this talk of bids of 16 as if they matter is amusing. 25 is the 'guaranteed' first here. And even then, we all know that, so it isn't guaranteed. From what I've seen over time, first player, for a list that wants it, is probably worth ~30 points.

45 minutes ago, Madaghmire said:

I feel like more and more, this is what we are actually arguing about. First/Last.

That might be where this ended up. Not necessarily the intention, but it does really get to the heart of the problem. As others have said, I flat out disagree with the advice of "stay out of the front arc", because if your opponent has first/last, more activations, and isn't a complete scrub, that's insanely hard to do. As has been brought up here several times, there are other ships that can do it too. I think my biggest problem with AvengerBT is HOW EASY it is to pull off. You really don't even have to be very good to capitalize on the trick... I also feel that it's a little special because even after the one-shot, it's still an ISD. It's not exactly easy to just kill it in response.

9 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

That might be where this ended up. Not necessarily the intention, but it does really get to the heart of the problem. As others have said, I flat out disagree with the advice of "stay out of the front arc", because if your opponent has first/last, more activations, and isn't a complete scrub, that's insanely hard to do. As has been brought up here several times, there are other ships that can do it too. I think my biggest problem with AvengerBT is HOW EASY it is to pull off. You really don't even have to be very good to capitalize on the trick... I also feel that it's a little special because even after the one-shot, it's still an ISD. It's not exactly easy to just kill it in response.

Sure. On the other hand, because its an ISD, pushing for activations generally leaves the rest of your fleet more vulnerable. For demo, the chasis cost i think 56 points, for Avenger, its 110. Of course, Demo made up a lot of cost in upgrades, with a fully kitted exp. launchers/intel officer/OE/ET demo costing 98. Whereas Avenger can be much lighter on upgrade costs and still be highly effective. Isd1/Avenger/BT/Leading shots is I believe only 122 points. So its basically only gozanti in cost over the old gold standard of obnoxious first/last chicanery, and its considerably more difficult to pull down in retaliation.

Of course, its also easier to block and can't initiate from as far out. But blocking isnt always as easy as its made out to be in a forum post. BTW, neither is setting up that sweet double arc.

Honestly, the combo in a vacuum doesn't bother me. For what you pay to put it on the table, it should be a strong weapon. And I think its good for the game for ISD's to have strong loadout options. Its cost in pure points and opportunity cost in losing out on Gunnery Teams, as well as the fact that BT is a discard are all self limiting factors. Additionally, while yes it can maybe delete that powerful MC80 and ruin your opponents day, its considerably less impressive against an MC30 or TRC90 swarm, which often has redundant interchangable units, higher manueverabilty, and may well take away last/first. Which once again, its the interaction with last/first that is at the root of the real issue.

I really got a little bit afield from where I thought I was going.

It means that more customers wandering about the game store will see ISDs on the table.

Which means that they will instantly recognize the game and have the "oh, neat!" factor with their first exposure to the game.