53 minutes ago, Valca said:

You couldn't first/last with an OLP Avenger. Tokens refresh at the beginning of the turn, so it doesn't matter if you OLP'd your target at the end of last turn. Your side arc doesn't have a blue die, so your only option for triggering OLP is on your front arc. The OLP trigger doesn't happen until *after* your target spends their defense tokens, so the Avenger title isn't in effect for your big hit. You do get Avenger benefits on your side arc, but that's only RRBB. No where near as effective as getting RRRUUBBB + RRBB without tokens.

The first/last was to guarantee position for a double arc from the Avenger. You move it last in a round, next round you go first with it, so your opponent cannot get out of the double arc.

So yes you can last/first with it in a high bid, high activation fleet build, and it is just as good because it is not discard.

And why on earth are you not firing the side arc first for the OLP trigger?

The first rule of BTVenger is you don't talk about BTVenger.

10 minutes ago, Valca said:

I'm not saying it's not effective, assuming you can guarantee that side arc crit. I'm saying it's not the same power as what BT Avenger offers. RRRRUUUU = ~6 damage on average. RRUU = ~3 damage, which will get braced to 2 and redirected, since they know it won't be able to spend tokens later, so it effectively does no damage.

RRBB = ~3.5 damage
RRRUUBBB = ~6.75. Higher, actually, since you have Leading Shots to reroll all that. We're looking at an average of 10 damage, more likely 12 with rerolls.

Point is, with BT Avenger you have a decent chance of one shotting a Liberty or even an ISD with a double arc. Those odds go up if you've done even a little bit of damage to the arc you're going to shoot with the rest of your fleet. You're not doing that with an ISD-II OLP Avenger. What you do gain with the OLP Avenger is the ability to do it more than once, assuming you're getting consistent double arcs.

You're clearly having math issues, and Admiral Screed guarantees that crit from your side arc every round.

Side arc should strip shields from the facing, or at least reduce shields, and trigger the OLP, then the front arc gets to shoot with no def tokens being used.

16 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

You're clearly having math issues, and Admiral Screed guarantees that crit from your side arc every round.

Side arc should strip shields from the facing, or at least reduce shields, and trigger the OLP, then the front arc gets to shoot with no def tokens being used.

Side arc shot won't strip shields because they'll just spend all of their defense tokens if you get that crit and redirect to a different facing.

Edit: Let's not get into a pissing match over exact damage here. Point is, BT Avenger is more dangerous for 1 turn and is something that has to be considered when building lists.

What is BT? Not enough caffeine here

17 minutes ago, SoonerTed said:

What is BT? Not enough caffeine here

Boarding troopers

AvengerBT isn't unstoppable. I had two VSD's in formation in one game and when the Avenger got in close range, they hammered it. I'll gladly trade one VSD-I for an ISD.

1 hour ago, BergerFett said:

in short... No

Demo Rhymer Gallant Haven TRCs have all had these discussions.

At somepoint people need to learn how to play around these types of combos.

Demo, Rhymer, TRC...

What do they have in common?

They were nerfed by the game designers.

Double double, post and bubble

I got hit by an ISD1 BT combo Sunday it hurt but Targeting Scramblers saved my a**.

1 hour ago, BergerFett said:

in short... No

Demo Rhymer Gallant Haven TRCs have all had these discussions.

At somepoint people need to learn how to play around these types of combos. Sure the above mentioned been adjusted but really, stay out of the ISDs front arc. Use 5min ships and squadrons to out deploy them.

Get gozanti hunters... like how is this still not figured out? Fights can typically shrek them fairly easier or raiders. raiders excel at dropping gozantis. By getting the activation count of his favor this greatly punishes those lists.

Those discussions happened because people struggled against those builds and ships. People don't discuss those normally because they already know how to deal with them. Despite what people think on the forums, you don't get struck with enlightenment and know every single counter in the game. It's trial and error and talking it out with other people.

12 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

This isn't a bad thing. It's just a thing.

The difficulty is making a list that is competitive against Demo, Ackbar, Sloane, Admo, and now BT Avenger. As it is now, BT Avenger has the best shot at killing any of the ships I mentioned with NO RETALIATION. It takes 8 damage to kill Demo, 12 to kill an MC80, 8 to kill a Quasar, and 7+2 to kill Admo (discard a token to prevent 2). Sure, taking 7 activations might help, but Avenger is still going last/first, so there is a reasonable chance it can kill your flots and then an MC30. And you can't threaten an MC30 by moving it up to an ISD I because it will be going first, so it kills you or it escapes.

6 hours ago, Sniperbon said:

IronNerd hits the nail right on the head with this. He isn't talking about what to bring to the table, he is talking about what actual tactical choices a player can make to combat this.
Having a high bid and 7 activation's makes it so easy to use the Avenger/BT fleet it's ridiculous. But more importantly the opponent can't stop the Avenger going Last/first, then firing first on the next turn after that.
Similar to the MSU 4 MC30 list. A player cannot stop the opponent playing an Mc30 last/first and then flying off.
Any high Activation list with a high bid, effectively cuts any "skillful" choice from the opposing player.
Making the game less about skill, as you force the opponent to play ships before you. Then go first. You will always have the most optimal choice's in the game if you are first and high activations

This is what the discussion should be about. If you are faced with a 7 activation, BT Avenger list at a tournament with whatever you bring, wtf are you gunna do about it. I just made a list with an ISD I, JJ, BT, Avenger, Demo+APT+OE, 2 FT Raiders and 3 Goz with a 21 point bid. It's pretty simple. Demo and ISD go last at the end of a round, then ISD BT kills something, assuming Demo is in no danger, it goes last then first, effectively wiping 2 ships off the board.

The answer is not, "gid gud", "why don't you already know the counter scrub", or "duh take upgrade X". I'll remind everyone what happened when IFF said flots were a problem and how everyone jumped on the band wagon of telling them to take H9 or IO, or why they don't have a Raider or CR90B hunting down the flot.

Telling people to simply "avoid the front" is such a BS answer. You can't avoid it when it goes last. I know because I use the same tactics with my Vic and Glad list. I can set up 2 ships at long and use GT and DC to drop 6 dice on both. It's very hard to come back from losing 2 ships in a single attack.

Does no one think it is weird that people acknowledge BT Avenger has a very good chance at killing a full health MC80 with a double arc? And then say "Yea, looks good. This isn't an issue." What?? This isn't with Sloane or squads or bombers, like @thecactusman17 mentioned. It's a 118 point ship, that has an average of 10.25 damage with a double arc. Idk about the rest of you, but that is pretty **** worrisome. A least with Demo going last/first triple tap, I have some say with defense tokens and how/where damage is going. With Admo H9, I can take ECM to mitigate the damage.

Idk what the answer is @IronNerd, but I for sure as hell know it's not the suggestions that people are throwing out here in this thread. This is going to be a repeat of the flot argument on how OP they are and why aren't you taking upgrade X to beat it.

20 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

@thecactusman17is@IronNerd,I for sure as hell know it's not the suggestions that people are throwing out here in this thread. This is going to be a repeat of the flot argument on how OP they are and why aren't you taking upgrade X to beat it.

It's not? "Take more than one threat" is not an acceptable solution?

Why? You can't just say "that's not good enough" without the barest nod to why.

There is a very very large range of options for dealing with this kind of flyer. Indeed, there's really only one type of opponent it's really good against: one that is completely reliant on one ship to function.

As to your point of having to deal with this and that and the other: that's the fun of the game dude. That's how you encourage a diverse meta. You're gonna be strong at the build level against some things and weak against others. That's where skill comes in. Yeah, an MC80 fortress token shenanigans list is going to have a hard time against this. It's not a foregone victory though: a skillful MC80 player can still mitigate the threat. Charge the avenger to deny a double arc and engineer to survive.

No, I don't think it's a problem that this super obvious, super expensive one shot threat can kill your big ship that didn't account for it. Just like I've never thought it was an issue that a bomber wing or MC30 swarm can tackle a whale in one round if it didn't account for them.

Sorry guys, on mobile and can't unfuck that quote.

I mean, how many different viable options do you have to have for countering something before it's not broken anymore?

22 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

If you are faced with a 7 activation, BT Avenger list at a tournament with whatever you bring, wtf are you gunna do about it.

I can't speak for what someone else is going to do, but I know what I'm going to do.

3 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

I can't speak for what someone else is going to do, but I know what I'm going to do.

Something classic?

11 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Idk what the answer is @IronNerd, but I for sure as hell know it's not the suggestions that people are throwing out here in this thread. This is going to be a repeat of the flot argument on how OP they are and why aren't you taking upgrade X to beat it.

But really, Armada is a bit difficult to talk about straight strategies because so much is dependent on maneuvering and upgrades that sometimes talking about it on a forum becomes tedious, fruitless, or both. In this thread people have said that positioning and some upgrades could really help. Actually blocking the ISD attack line should be easier than blocking Demo. In relative terms that's what basically every counter strategy, upgrades and placement, boils down to and BTA isn't the exception.

2 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

I can't speak for what someone else is going to do, but I know what I'm going to do.

Punch 'em in the kidneys?

3 minutes ago, Vergilius said:

I can't speak for what someone else is going to do, but I know what I'm going to do.

I've already detailed elsewhere what I personally am gonna do about it. I'm going to trade 1/4 of my killing power for 100% of his.

11 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:

I've already detailed elsewhere what I personally am gonna do about it. I'm going to trade 1/4 of my killing power for 100% of his.

Actually thinking on your mc30 list BT avenger changes nothing right?

I mean your ships was going to die in front of an ISD no matter if it is BT avenger or not so who cares?

1 minute ago, ovinomanc3r said:

Actually thinking on your mc30 list BT avenger changes nothing right?

I mean your ships was going to die in front of an ISD no matter if it is BT avenger or not so who cares?

Mothma matters. Not being able to reroll blacks hurts.

1 minute ago, Undeadguy said:

Mothma matters. Not being able to reroll blacks hurts.

It matters, but if I have an MC30 eating the front arc of an ISD1, either I'm doing it wrong or I'm intentionally trading. You don't do that and count on the shrimp living unless you have tricks up your sleeve.

But since you just said "don't park at close range of avenger's front arc" is BS advice... I dunno, I guess four waves of dodging ISD's is over now?

Cr90 h9 and ET and 7 transport and a better bid beat BTavenger 6 gozanti fleet

You just have to last/first with the CR90 hunting the flotillas

All BT is doing is giving the ISD a hard-hitting single-target option of comparable value to the multi-target option GT provides. GT is still going to give you more absolute damage throughout; BT/Avenger gives you a strong single shot, once. I think the value is pretty comparable between the two. BTvenger is going to be a strong build against single large threats, but GT is still far and away better against MSUs, or even just 2+ independent gunships.

1 minute ago, Ardaedhel said:

All BT is doing is giving the ISD a hard-hitting single-target option of comparable value to the multi-target option GT provides. GT is still going to give you more absolute damage throughout; BT/Avenger gives you a strong single shot, once. I think the value is pretty comparable between the two. BTvenger is going to be a strong build against single large threats, but GT is still far and away better against MSUs, or even just 2+ independent gunships.

The more I think about the more I see some kind of balance. There are nerf and new stuff that let bigger and tanky ships see more table against MSUs. And we have BT avenger to deal with it. Not so bad.

My main concern is how plain is the BT avenger combo. It calls laziness.

my arguments are that armada is a game of strategy and tactical decisions.

TRCs Rhymer and Demo were a bit over the top but easily manageable if you had the experience and knowledge to do so. The question is does FFG tune something because its truly broken or because enough people can't figure it out. Its like any game, take a good piece, give it to an exceptional player and people will cry its OP.

Hell Demo is still probably Broken and TRC is still stupid good. The only one that got hit really hard are rieekan and rhymer there.

The waves been out what 3 weeks, its a bit premature to say something is broken. Obviously good thing is OBVIOUSLY GOOD, learn to play around it. there are plenty of great ideas on this thread on how to do just that.

and the most important thing you can do is just play. If you are going to big events, have friends proxy the list, or you proxy the list and try different ways around it. Its strong, the rebels have a similar list with the Liberty. It has its weaknesses (flotillas) you need to ignore the main ship and kill everything else.

If imperial take a Gozanti Tua ECMs and go sit in front of the isd for the 3-4 turns worth of HP.... you basically take the ISD out of the fight for a few turns and lose maybe 35pts, go kill 2 of their gozantis and you are now up. Also if they want to go first take Objectives that actively punish them for going second, like superior positions so he has to deploy his fleet at once. There are many ways to augment those lists.