8 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

Perhaps I did, can you help me to understand your point? I read what you were saying as "Yes, I may not be able to stop the combo from happening, but I CAN punish the ISD in response." Reading it as such, I agreed that you can set up some nasty retaliation, but you aren't going to end an ISD with said retaliation. Especially after it just killed your big bad piece, as it is designed to do.

If I misread that, help me understand.

Your overall point is that the only way to defeat an ISD is to go high-activation and high-bid, correct?

My points are:

1. you do not

2. high-activation lists have their own Achilles Heels, namely traffic and can often be neutralized by placement of a 'trailer' ship - something that sits behind your main ship to catch other ships trying to fly past it.

3. if you don't think you can beat Avenger/BT and you do not want to fly a swarm list, just focus on avoiding the front arc - this is what everyone with experience in this game is trying to tell you

1 hour ago, Drasnighta said:

My Ships:

@Drasnighta you're my hero.

Yavaris 3 B-wings and a blocking Flotilla should melt it. It has to come to you. Use that. Or ignore it and hunt Flotillas.

Hello all.

A bit late to the conversation i seem to be because i was asleep (aus hours).

Thought id provide my take on Avenger Troopers since I may have exacerbated the perceived problem through one of our Battle Blogs last week.

Its only effective right now because of the lack of bombers around because of the Sloan cray. In my games where i did face bombers, i was hurting bad.

With 7 or more ship activations i lose out on deployment to the usual 5 ships 8 squadrons you see these days. Most of the time the ship i actually want to board deploys well away from avenger.

Against an msu list like say triple mc30 they simply destroy all my other ships or gank the isd.

Blocking is huge. A simple flotilla blocking the approach angle for a double arc on your big ship means a 150+ investment wasted.

So as awesome as it is, i truly believe some cunning flying and right builds can overcome it.

4 hours ago, TaeSWXW said:

It's what it is. If it can't shoot you, then it all it is is a point sink that won't earn back the initial investment. You don't need seven activations and first player - that is why it is not OP and why we don't need to worry about it that much.

If you can't get a shot of your choice off with first player and 7 activations, the issue is not with your opponent making a brilliant play it is entirely with you.

The OP is absolutely right about one thing, and that is that there is minimal counterplay to this particular setup. Previously, the smart play would have been to bait it into a double arc with multiple TRC90s or a big Yavaris/Rhymer ball and overwhelm it with 2-4 damage hits several times in a row. The nerfing of several cards used to do that in the latest errata has pushed Avenger as the new hotness when it comes to ultra-reliable damage that can't be intercepted.

3 minutes ago, thecactusman17 said:

If you can't get a shot of your choice off with first player and 7 activations, the issue is not with your opponent making a brilliant play it is entirely with you.

The OP is absolutely right about one thing, and that is that there is minimal counterplay to this particular setup. Previously, the smart play would have been to bait it into a double arc with multiple TRC90s or a big Yavaris/Rhymer ball and overwhelm it with 2-4 damage hits several times in a row. The nerfing of several cards used to do that in the latest errata has pushed Avenger as the new hotness when it comes to ultra-reliable damage that can't be intercepted.

I hate that there is not quotes of quotes now because I can't tell if you're confused about what I said or responding to the a previous part of the conversation. My point was that a seven-activation list is not necessary to defeat Avenger/BT. I know I personally don't need seven, I've taken down an Avenger/BT with just five and probably could've done it with four.

1 minute ago, TaeSWXW said:

I hate that there is not quotes of quotes now because I can't tell if you're confused about what I said or responding to the a previous part of the conversation. My point was that a seven-activation list is not necessary to defeat Avenger/BT. I know I personally don't need seven, I've taken down an Avenger/BT with just five and probably could've done it with four.

Oh certainly you don't need 7. You generally do need first player though to be the most effective at fishing that arc.

The entire point of this has been lost to another "This is unbeatable" vs. "No it's not, just do this" argument, which is not what I intended to do (mostly because there is never any resolution whatsoever). It doesn't matter if Avenger/BT is beatable (which of course it is, nothing is invincible). I'm not going to continue participating in that kind of argument, there are always "well yeah, but..." that will go on forever.

The point is, should it exist? Is Armada a healthier, more interesting game because it has this combination which completely negates an important piece of the game? My answer is no. It's too easy to set up and it honestly doesn't cost very much (if you already wanted an ISD, it's 8 points). That's too little cost to take away someone's decisions. It's not fun to not play your game.

3 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

The entire point of this has been lost to another "This is unbeatable" vs. "No it's not, just do this" argument, which is not what I intended to do (mostly because there is never any resolution whatsoever). It doesn't matter if Avenger/BT is beatable (which of course it is, nothing is invincible). I'm not going to continue participating in that kind of argument, there are always "well yeah, but..." that will go on forever.

The point is, should it exist? Is Armada a healthier, more interesting game because it has this combination which completely negates an important piece of the game? My answer is no. It's too easy to set up and it honestly doesn't cost very much (if you already wanted an ISD, it's 8 points). That's too little cost to take away someone's decisions. It's not fun to not play your game.

You could say the same about Demolisher, though.

... and Yavaris.

... And Squall.

... et al.

11 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

The entire point of this has been lost to another "This is unbeatable" vs. "No it's not, just do this" argument, which is not what I intended to do (mostly because there is never any resolution whatsoever). It doesn't matter if Avenger/BT is beatable (which of course it is, nothing is invincible). I'm not going to continue participating in that kind of argument, there are always "well yeah, but..." that will go on forever.

The point is, should it exist? Is Armada a healthier, more interesting game because it has this combination which completely negates an important piece of the game? My answer is no. It's too easy to set up and it honestly doesn't cost very much (if you already wanted an ISD, it's 8 points). That's too little cost to take away someone's decisions. It's not fun to not play your game.

What did you expect to happen? Everyone agreeing? There are counters to most things in this game and players are pointing some of these out to you.

6 hours ago, LazorBeems said:

Raise your hand if you did the "Whhrrrrrrr" sound in your head when you saw this...

2 hours ago, IronNerd said:

The entire point of this has been lost to another "This is unbeatable" vs. "No it's not, just do this" argument, which is not what I intended to do (mostly because there is never any resolution whatsoever). It doesn't matter if Avenger/BT is beatable (which of course it is, nothing is invincible). I'm not going to continue participating in that kind of argument, there are always "well yeah, but..." that will go on forever.

The point is, should it exist? Is Armada a healthier, more interesting game because it has this combination which completely negates an important piece of the game? My answer is no. It's too easy to set up and it honestly doesn't cost very much (if you already wanted an ISD, it's 8 points). That's too little cost to take away someone's decisions. It's not fun to not play your game.

I don't see what the big deal is. If you really are scared of it, Ion Cannon Battery is the best way to go. It let's you rip the squad token that is needed to trigger it, unless your opponent is just really good with dial timing. But you are also forcing them to waste a valuable squad dial to do this. Might be worth it, might not. Slicer Tools can fix that.

I do agree with you that BT Avenger should not be a thing. As I said earlier, it is a huge incentive for Imps to bid huge again. Being able to pick a ship and remove it from the table without any response is too powerful IMO. I'm not sure what all the "block with a flotilla" talk is about. It shoots the flotilla and then moves to set up for the last/first next round.

On the flip side, I do think Imps needed some more love on the ISDs, which I am sure someone will come point out Regionals data and so forth just to prove me wrong. Point is, I want to take an ISD now. BT Avenger is **** good. Before that, the only real reason for me to take an ISD was to push squads. The ISD was going to lose its spot for Imps. You can take a Vic for cheaper that can throw more dice at long, or a Quasar as a carrier.

I don't think it's going to be game breaking, but I do think it will be game changing. You now have to account for the BT Avenger, just like you have to do for the Ackbar Defiance or Demo or Admo.

1 hour ago, Undeadguy said:

You now have to account for the BT Avenger, just like you have to do for the Ackbar Defiance or Demo or Admo.

This isn't a bad thing. It's just a thing.

Two disclaimers: 1) I've been half-reading these threads all day, so feel free to point out if I'm missing something in this thread in particular; 2) I'm working my way through a couple of delicious Anchor Steams as I type this, so expect my grammar, coherence, and general self-restraint to go downhill fast as the post goes on.

The BTvenger's role is exactly the same as Demo in the Clonisher archetype: kill one ship, for sure. It would be a stupid boring game if you could just castle up with an armored-over MC80A and then play token shenanigans all game, and there was nothing to be done about it. That's why these kinds of siege-breakers are in the game: they kill one thing, very well, and prevent the points-castling shenanigans from dominating the game as (I understand) X-wing saw happen with the pancakes for a pretty long stretch.

And if the game was all about killing or preserving one ship every game, the siegebreaker BTvenger would be obviously overpowered. But that's not how this game works. Not every fleet--indeed, few successful ones, in my experience--rely entirely on any one ship surviving to win the game. Part of the reason for that, I imagine, is the already-present Demo threat.

As somebody (sorry, again, lost track) said, you can't build this fleet with 7 activations and an unbeatable initiative bid without significant concessions somewhere else. If I had to hazard a guess, I'd say that "somewhere else" is usually going to be the fighter screen. So there's your simplest response to this: bring bombers, boom done.

"But Ard!" they tell me, "I hate squadrons! That can't be the only answer!" Well, fortunately for you, hypothetical person, it's not! Bring literally any fleet with multiple ship-based existential threats. Hell, it doesn't even have to be multiple: bring two. Bring yourself a Liberty and a Landmonition. Bring a pair of ISD's. Bring an ER Raider swarm. Bring a CR90 swarm. Bring 4 MC30's. Bring an TS Interdictor and a couple of VSD2's. Bring Hammerheads. ******* Slicer Tool off that Squadron Dial and ICB the token. Bring your own Avenger with Sloane, fighters, and GT--that's a better build anyway, because GT covers way more matchups than BT.

It's true. This ship has a fair chance to one-round that MC80 that you just plopped down in front of it, with no plan to protect it from a double-arcing Avenger. So sorry, your invincible points fortress isn't so invincible at close range of Avenger anymore (spoiler: it never was). Fix your list or tactics and try again.

11 hours ago, Truthiness said:

I will agree it's not the greatest. When they revealed BT, the synergy with Avenger worried me considerably. Big ships are already struggling a bit compared to MSU and while this gives Imperials a go to big ship combo, it discourages Rebel large ships from hitting the board. Still, we'll see how this shakes out. I expect to see a lot more of Lando, that's for sure. If it's a problem, I have faith in FFG to address it.

I would actually consider it a case for Rebel Large ships as the only thing that can absorb the beating, not die in a titanic fireball, and then attempt to return fire. Best case scenario against an 80H1 is a minimum of 11 damage, which Avenger can do, but shouldn't rely on. That's still something like fourish doubles out of six possibles (accounting for a blank or so). Said ship will be bleeding atmosphere and falling apart, but it will in all likelihood live long enough to return fire. It's one of the only advantages a double pickle list has in this environment, as @PT106 alluded to. I see you've killed one. The other is going to rake you with concentrated death now.

In all fairness, it was never easy for anything lesser than an Assault Frigate to weather an I-1 at close range opening up, which hurt that ship's already flagging stock again, but its niche as the Rebel FC ship isn't going anywhere.

10 hours ago, Drasnighta said:

I mean, honestly, as a virtually-full-time Rebel Player, I see it like this:


Close Range of an ISD-1 is Death.

Close Range of an ISD-1 Avenger with Boarding Troopers is Death times Death.

Death Squared is still Death.

I'm already doing everything I can as a Rebel Player to stay outside of Avengers Front Arc at Close Range at all Times...

The price of failure of that was Death.

Death doesn't really get any Deathier in that Scenario.

If anything, I like seeing that Someone's taken Avenger with Boarding Troopers.... It Means They Don't Have Gunnery Teams.

Yeah, as an ISD fanatic, this is why I'm not super psyched about either Boarding Teams or Boarding Engineers. Yeah, I can take it, but I could also have Gunnery Teams, and kill/maim two things.

2 hours ago, Ardaedhel said:

Bring yourself a Liberty and a Landmonition.

NOw that you mention it...

I love how people are talking like this is suddenly a new thing for an Avenger ISD.

You could pre Boarding Engineers/Troops, take an Avenger with Overload Pulse, and first/last with it to do exactly the same thing. And even if they remove Boarding Engineers, you can still do the same thing, and even better it is not a one shot use, you can keep doing it the whole game.

12 hours ago, IronNerd said:

The entire point of this has been lost to another "This is unbeatable" vs. "No it's not, just do this" argument, which is not what I intended to do (mostly because there is never any resolution whatsoever). It doesn't matter if Avenger/BT is beatable (which of course it is, nothing is invincible). I'm not going to continue participating in that kind of argument, there are always "well yeah, but..." that will go on forever.

The point is, should it exist? Is Armada a healthier, more interesting game because it has this combination which completely negates an important piece of the game? My answer is no. It's too easy to set up and it honestly doesn't cost very much (if you already wanted an ISD, it's 8 points). That's too little cost to take away someone's decisions. It's not fun to not play your game.

IronNerd hits the nail right on the head with this. He isn't talking about what to bring to the table, he is talking about what actual tactical choices a player can make to combat this.
Having a high bid and 7 activation's makes it so easy to use the Avenger/BT fleet it's ridiculous. But more importantly the opponent can't stop the Avenger going Last/first, then firing first on the next turn after that.
Similar to the MSU 4 MC30 list. A player cannot stop the opponent playing an Mc30 last/first and then flying off.
Any high Activation list with a high bid, effectively cuts any "skillful" choice from the opposing player.
Making the game less about skill, as you force the opponent to play ships before you. Then go first. You will always have the most optimal choice's in the game if you are first and high activations

4 minutes ago, TheEasternKing said:

I love how people are talking like this is suddenly a new thing for an Avenger ISD.

You could pre Boarding Engineers/Troops, take an Avenger with Overload Pulse, and first/last with it to do exactly the same thing. And even if they remove Boarding Engineers, you can still do the same thing, and even better it is not a one shot use, you can keep doing it the whole game.

As someone who missed GenCon 2016 by a single point thanks largely to this ship, I have a few thoughts. I'm not saying this is based solely on Boarding Troopers, but somply as an observation.

Avenger has had options for hitting enemy ships while attacking other players since being released. The first and most obvious is simply activating 4 squadrons that can force the opposing player to spend all of their defense tokens. An example might be 4 Firesprays or 3 Firesprays and Maarek Stele. Essentially, 4 squadrons that are likely to trigger every known defense tokens.

What's new is the combination of the ability to gain easy, cheap command tokens and the Boarding Troopers upgrade. Unless a player takes an unfortunate critical that discards and prevents command tokens, there are very few methods to counter this.

This is combined with the recent neuterings of multiple upgrade cards, specifically Demolisher, General Rieekan, Turbolaser Reroute Circuits, Major Rhymer,

In short, there is a legitimate question if the ability is overpowered, even if the ultimate answer is "no." The power inherent to this immediate effect is on par with or even surpasses options that have received an errata in the recent past.

12 hours ago, IronNerd said:

The sole power from this list comes from going Last/first, if someone had an Avenger/BT with less activation's than the opponent and was second player it would be pretty rubbish, as the opponent will always fly his ship out of range for when the Avenger fly's in.
Thus the power comes from the exploitation of the Activation mechanic and "bidding" for first player mechanic.

(Sorry I don't know how to get rid of the quote box!)

If you go MSU there is no difference between avengerBT or any other ISD so playing that you "counter" the combo.

Heavy bomber wings. Yavaris, relayed, rhymer ball a lot of options.

Slicer tools + ICB

Flotilla blocker.

Lando, Admo, targeting scramblers. Montferrat, Cracken, Motti, obstruction.

The fact that all it can easily one shot is cheaper and avenger is not more durable than any other ISD

Avoiding front arcs with maneuverable ships, Madine, JJ, ETs

G8 phylon Konstantin

Your own avenger

Double ISD

There are a lot of options to directly counter it or taking advantage from the areas that it cannot exploit like objectives: mines, jamming barrier, fighter ambush etc. You are going to be second look for nasty things.

However I don't completely disagree with the OP. The avengerBT is a too plug&play setup. This doesn't mean it is overpowered but I am worry about lazy behaviours. On the other hand I am not so sad about everyone bringing avenger, it makes easy for me to build my next tournament fleet as long as I know what I am going to face. It can be boring though.

3 hours ago, TheEasternKing said:

I love how people are talking like this is suddenly a new thing for an Avenger ISD.

You could pre Boarding Engineers/Troops, take an Avenger with Overload Pulse, and first/last with it to do exactly the same thing. And even if they remove Boarding Engineers, you can still do the same thing, and even better it is not a one shot use, you can keep doing it the whole game.

You couldn't first/last with an OLP Avenger. Tokens refresh at the beginning of the turn, so it doesn't matter if you OLP'd your target at the end of last turn. Your side arc doesn't have a blue die, so your only option for triggering OLP is on your front arc. The OLP trigger doesn't happen until *after* your target spends their defense tokens, so the Avenger title isn't in effect for your big hit. You do get Avenger benefits on your side arc, but that's only RRBB. No where near as effective as getting RRRUUBBB + RRBB without tokens.

29 minutes ago, Valca said:

You couldn't first/last with an OLP Avenger. Tokens refresh at the beginning of the turn, so it doesn't matter if you OLP'd your target at the end of last turn. Your side arc doesn't have a blue die, so your only option for triggering OLP is on your front arc. The OLP trigger doesn't happen until *after* your target spends their defense tokens, so the Avenger title isn't in effect for your big hit. You do get Avenger benefits on your side arc, but that's only RRBB. No where near as effective as getting RRRUUBBB + RRBB without tokens.

Unless you take an ISD II. Then you can do everything an ISD I can at medium and trigger OP on your side.

4 minutes ago, Undeadguy said:

Unless you take an ISD II. Then you can do everything an ISD I can at medium and trigger OP on your side.

I'm not saying it's not effective, assuming you can guarantee that side arc crit. I'm saying it's not the same power as what BT Avenger offers. RRRRUUUU = ~6 damage on average. RRUU = ~3 damage, which will get braced to 2 and redirected, since they know it won't be able to spend tokens later, so it effectively does no damage.

RRBB = ~3.5 damage
RRRUUBBB = ~6.75. Higher, actually, since you have Leading Shots to reroll all that. We're looking at an average of 10 damage, more likely 12 with rerolls.

Point is, with BT Avenger you have a decent chance of one shotting a Liberty or even an ISD with a double arc. Those odds go up if you've done even a little bit of damage to the arc you're going to shoot with the rest of your fleet. You're not doing that with an ISD-II OLP Avenger. What you do gain with the OLP Avenger is the ability to do it more than once, assuming you're getting consistent double arcs.

in short... No

Demo Rhymer Gallant Haven TRCs have all had these discussions.

At somepoint people need to learn how to play around these types of combos. Sure the above mentioned been adjusted but really, stay out of the ISDs front arc. Use 5min ships and squadrons to out deploy them.

Get gozanti hunters... like how is this still not figured out? Fights can typically shrek them fairly easier or raiders. raiders excel at dropping gozantis. By getting the activation count of his favor this greatly punishes those lists.