It's a little bit too good, right? Yes, I'm fully aware that there are things that can be done to minimize its impact. That being said, an AvengerBT 7 activation list took first in our store champ this weekend. By itself, that doesn't bother me, but here's what REALLY irks me about the combo. Despite opponents seeing the combo and trying to play around it, the Avenger did its thing. One player commented that he felt he had no control on the outcome of the game (after his Liberty was one-shot killed). That's not a good thing for the game... Seems to me that the AvengerBT is a no-brainer for any list that plans to take an ISD-1 anyway, whether it's a skew list or not. How does a balanced list handle the Avenger? I also realize "balanced list" means different things to different people, but I'm looking for ideas that aren't "just bring 10 Bombers...".

Don't want to be part of the problem and scream OP, but it doesn't seem like a healthy combo for the game. Thoughts?

I think you are seeing some odd interplay right now. We are finally coming out of a defensive fighter meta a bit so people were used to playing slowly. when you play slow a fast ISD can get in close range. When you get in close range of Avenger with BT everything dies.

Taking your example above, a Madine'ed Liberty should be able to dance around an ISD and stay out of close range. I think you have a valid concern but I think things will shake out fine once people get used to it.

With the advent of Quads people will likely flow slow for a while longer though...

It does hit hard. Things get a little meta in the game alot from those competitive players in our groups. Yet it is very easy to see coming and only works once. Use a flotilla as a blocker is a strategy I would suggest.

It's a one shot ship. If it misses an opportunity, it's going to hurt.

If you want to beat it, make sure to have initiative so it can't last/first to set up a shot on you. Killing activations is another good way to cripple the list. 7 activations is a lot, which means flots are there for padding. Find a way to take them out. Sensor Team Raider or CR90B with ET.

You could take a bunch of squads. Bombers are still a thing. Yavaris, Norra, and BCC can still take down an ISD. Sloane is an issue, so take Intel.

I think the BT Avenger combo is going to be the thing to beat. I expect a large activation counter and deep bid for first. If that's true, make a list designed to take second.

Solution - don't let the ISD get a Close Range shot on you.

40 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

It's a little bit too good, right? Yes, I'm fully aware that there are things that can be done to minimize its impact. That being said, an AvengerBT 7 activation list took first in our store champ this weekend. By itself, that doesn't bother me, but here's what REALLY irks me about the combo. Despite opponents seeing the combo and trying to play around it, the Avenger did its thing. One player commented that he felt he had no control on the outcome of the game (after his Liberty was one-shot killed). That's not a good thing for the game... Seems to me that the AvengerBT is a no-brainer for any list that plans to take an ISD-1 anyway, whether it's a skew list or not. How does a balanced list handle the Avenger? I also realize "balanced list" means different things to different people, but I'm looking for ideas that aren't "just bring 10 Bombers...".

Don't want to be part of the problem and scream OP, but it doesn't seem like a healthy combo for the game . Thoughts?

You just nailed it.

2 minutes ago, TaeSWXW said:

Solution - don't let the ISD get a Close Range shot on you.

I don't mean to be blunt... but how is this useful to the discussion? How do you go about that when facing a list with 7 activations and first turn? The answer can't be "out-bid it" because that is bad for the game. The answer can't be "have more activations" because that's REALLY bad for the game. Blocking with a flotilla buys you a turn, sure, but it also costs you a flotilla that you might have wanted to use for something else.

The point of the post is that I personally feel the AvengerBT is not good for the game. There are counters, but not great ones. Newer or less experienced players see something like this and immediately decide the game is broken, and I can't do much to talk them out of that opinion...

Whenever I feel like something might be a bit too powerful I quickly remember that there are only 6 turns in the game, and many ships only attacking for one or two turns... If power of this magnitude wasn't available in the game things would just not die, and then armada would be more or less a pillow fight between grown men in the back of dingy dank local gaming store...

29 minutes ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

Taking your example above, a Madine'ed Liberty should be able to dance around an ISD and stay out of close range.

Only if it has at least last or first.

Just now, IronNerd said:

I don't mean to be blunt... but how is this useful to the discussion? How do you go about that when facing a list with 7 activations and first turn? The answer can't be "out-bid it" because that is bad for the game. The answer can't be "have more activations" because that's REALLY bad for the game. Blocking with a flotilla buys you a turn, sure, but it also costs you a flotilla that you might have wanted to use for something else.

The point of the post is that I personally feel the AvengerBT is not good for the game. There are counters, but not great ones. Newer or less experienced players see something like this and immediately decide the game is broken, and I can't do much to talk them out of that opinion...

It's what it is. If it can't shoot you, then it all it is is a point sink that won't earn back the initial investment. You don't need seven activations and first player - that is why it is not OP and why we don't need to worry about it that much.

3 minutes ago, Darth Veggie said:

Only if it has at least last or first.

I was thinking more that it's way more maneuverable. It can avoid that engagement altogether if it wants or prolong it and then come in from the sides. Basically tries to to its best CR90 impression.

2 minutes ago, SkyCake said:

Whenever I feel like something might be a bit too powerful I quickly remember that there are only 6 turns in the game, and many ships only attacking for one or two turns... If power of this magnitude wasn't available in the game things would just not die, and then armada would be more or less a pillow fight between grown men in the back of dingy dank local gaming store...

So the answer is giving a autoinclude oneshot ship? Things died before AvengerBT, a lot. You may be playing a completely different game.

5 minutes ago, xerpo said:

So the answer is giving a autoinclude oneshot ship? Things died before AvengerBT, a lot. You may be playing a completely different game.

That's actually kind of interesting. In the defensive fighter meta ships dying quickly was actually probably rare. The Avenger BT might be viewed as a hard nerf to that play style.

8 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

I don't mean to be blunt... but how is this useful to the discussion? How do you go about that when facing a list with 7 activations and first turn? The answer can't be "out-bid it" because that is bad for the game. The answer can't be "have more activations" because that's REALLY bad for the game. Blocking with a flotilla buys you a turn, sure, but it also costs you a flotilla that you might have wanted to use for something else

The way I see it - Avenger/bt is an expensive ship. Even if it one shots one of your ships and dies in a retaliation, it is going to be a beneficial trade.

My personal answer to Avenger/BT is to troll them annd to bring 2 ISDs, given that bt is a one-trick pony.

Lando and Targetting Scramblers are also obnoxious for the Avenger to deal with.

As are Rieekan ships and serious rebel bomber contingents.

Just now, PT106 said:

The way I see it - Avenger/bt is an expensive ship. Even if it one shots one of your ships and dies in a retaliation, it is going to be a beneficial trade.

My personal answer to Avenger/BT is to troll them annd to bring 2 ISDs, given that bt is a one-trick pony.

First, I like your style. If you have more ISDs than them, you just handle it and keep rolling on.

Problem is that the Avenger/BT is actually not that expensive. 122 points gets you Avenger/BT plus Leading Shots. Plus, it's still an ISD, so it's not easy to kill it in retaliation. This is especially true when it just one-shot your big bad ship.

And anything with speed 4.

1 minute ago, IronNerd said:

First, I like your style. If you have more ISDs than them, you just handle it and keep rolling on.

Problem is that the Avenger/BT is actually not that expensive. 122 points gets you Avenger/BT plus Leading Shots. Plus, it's still an ISD, so it's not easy to kill it in retaliation. This is especially true when it just one-shot your big bad ship.

Why do you need to kill it?

Think of it this way: this is a slightly harder to use Demolisher with a higher investment and a larger footprint. What were you doing against Demolisher?

Just now, Truthiness said:

Think of it this way: this is a slightly harder to use Demolisher with a higher investment and a larger footprint. What were you doing against Demolisher?

I was hiding my opponents gladiators. Worked 100% of the time.

Just now, TaeSWXW said:

Why do you need to kill it?

Again, I apologize if I come off as blunt, but I seriously don't understand your angle on this. ISDs are pretty maneuverable ships, capable of speed 3 with a fair number of clicks. Throw in Jerry, and good luck to anyone trying to stay out of that front arc. Are you just planning to run away the entire game? Like... directly away? Board edges exist... and the opponent still has another 250 points of list coming at you...

2 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Think of it this way: this is a slightly harder to use Demolisher with a higher investment and a larger footprint. What were you doing against Demolisher?

The difference being that Demolisher is MUCH easier to kill. Take away BT and Avenger and it's still an ISD-1! I'd argue even heavy bomber lists have a hard time killing an ISD before they lose their key carrier. In fact, I saw that exact thing this weekend at the store champs. Did the ISD eat 2 B-Wings and 2 Y-Wings? Yes, but he killed an MC80 in return...

5 minutes ago, IronNerd said:

The difference being that Demolisher is MUCH easier to kill. Take away BT and Avenger and it's still an ISD-1! I'd argue even heavy bomber lists have a hard time killing an ISD before they lose their key carrier. In fact, I saw that exact thing this weekend at the store champs. Did the ISD eat 2 B-Wings and 2 Y-Wings? Yes, but he killed an MC80 in return...

I blame the mc80 for not having lando.