The thing is that 3 dice PWT ships are expensive and have low agility and usually not that great dials.

A falcon or decimator usually clocks in at 55-60pts and can get eaten by a swarm in 2 turns. The jumpmaster on the other hand is a bit crazy since it got both native barrel, white sloops, a bunch of greens (possible 3 hard greens) and covered by 2 agility. Miranda also got some stuff like she is a small ship so no half dead points giveaway and the slam gives great mobility and tlt double shot is almost too good with her regen ability.

Saying turrets is easy mode is just a salty way of saying I don't like loosing. Look it's annoying facing a fat turret that can always shoot you and it's annoying to get arc dogded by soontir for the 4th time in a match with you low ps ships that cant do anything, but whatch soontir choose where to place himself with barrel roll and boost and still get a modified shot on you. Some matchups are gonna be hard and this is a game of combos. We won't get the old ways of single action ship with very few boosts jousting eachother.

If you face small ship tlt then either block or tractor beam them. Facing fat turrets block and shoot them and if you face arc dodgers then use bombs or auto dmg. We can't all play standard x-wing and ties forever, but do that if you want.

Just now, Joe Boss Red Seven said:

... ROOM 237 IS ace-wing... and peeps try'n to make excuses for it...hee, hee!

I don't see the correlation at all

I'm not sure if this is a region or locale thing but Rebel Bomb Nym gets blown to pieces before having any significant impact due to not being able to fully abuse "Genius" and no access to SLAM. The only one that kinda does anything is Rebel Missile Nym, but again, I haven't seen one survive a match.

Scum Bomb Nym seems to have the better win ratio but I am not sure if that is more due to the supporting ship being superior to the Rebel one or what.

I will agree that the Rebel Jankyard list seems to be the real winner of this wave.

3 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

The Falcon is wave 2, and 3-CPO and other defensive tech for it wasn't around then.

Do tell what other 'defensive tech' the Falcon has been using then? Then explain why Falcons aren't monstering everyone else since they are so much 'easy button'.

No, wait. Maybe it's just you

For me, it's not the turret so much. It's in the movie, makes sense. Each turret upgrade has a unique feel to it.

Its about large base dials, and Jumpmaster cost. Turrets are not supposed to arc dodge, they are not supposed to be able to out fly anything. Give it a cool ability for in-arc but then don't make getting in arc sooooo easy.

Then it is the cost of Jumpmaster. It has a better dial than most fighters AND cost less than them too? Well, there is your problem.

38 minutes ago, Ccwebb said:

Its about large base dials, and Jumpmaster cost. Turrets are not supposed to arc dodge, they are not supposed to be able to out fly anything.

This would make for a pretty terrible game experience IMO.

Either the opposing list out-dices the turret, case in which it auto wins because the turret can't outfly it, or the turret out-dices the enemy, case in which there's nowhere to hide from the 360 fire arc

It's the point cost, folks. Always has been.

Falcon was fine. 3-PO costs 3 points and was worth 8+ on a Fat Han. Not fine anymore.

Aces were fine until we got Aces that are more points-efficient than the generics. Not fine anymore.

TLT was worth 7 or more points out the gate and is probably worth 10+ points on Miranda.

Jumpmasters were born too cheap.

Almost anything can be put in the game so long as the costs add up correctly. The designers are not perfect and the unwillingness to recost the broken cards has led to them chasing their tails with "fix" cards that just lead to new problems.

30 minutes ago, gamblertuba said:

It's the point cost, folks. Always has been.

Falcon was fine. 3-PO costs 3 points and was worth 8+ on a Fat Han. Not fine anymore.

Aces were fine until we got Aces that are more points-efficient than the generics. Not fine anymore.

TLT was worth 7 or more points out the gate and is probably worth 10+ points on Miranda.

Jumpmasters were born too cheap.

Almost anything can be put in the game so long as the costs add up correctly. The designers are not perfect and the unwillingness to recost the broken cards has led to them chasing their tails with "fix" cards that just lead to new problems.

This.

...and really this!

14 hours ago, Reiver said:

The 4-ship Rebel build may be somewhat concerning... but I'm reasonably sure the designers are watching to see just how strong it is, before releasing a tailored nerf to Biggs a couple weeks before some major american tournament or another, to keep it in check in just the right amounts. It's now practically tradition, and I wouldn't be practicing such squads too heavily without a B-list in the wings... just in case.

What bugs me is that Paul Heaver was most likely part of the tester team. Seing his list out just after release does make me think it was created while testing. Nobody raised a red flag when seeing this??

4 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

I'm not sure if this is a region or locale thing but Rebel Bomb Nym gets blown to pieces before having any significant impact due to not being able to fully abuse "Genius" and no access to SLAM. The only one that kinda does anything is Rebel Missile Nym, but again, I haven't seen one survive a match.

Scum Bomb Nym seems to have the better win ratio but I am not sure if that is more due to the supporting ship being superior to the Rebel one or what.

In my region it's actualy rebel Nym whos been doing better. He has many partners options to protect him. Ive seen Nym+Gunship+TLT Ywing and Nym+Poe(intensity)+Rex doing well. Whats funny is in all the good builds ive seen there was no Sabine. Who would have thought...

4 hours ago, Viktus106 said:

I will agree that the Rebel Jankyard list seems to be the real winner of this wave.

Yeah, that thing is going to need a nerf 100% sure.

4 hours ago, Thormind said:

What bugs me is that Paul Heaver was most likely part of the tester team. Seing his list out just after release does make me think it was created while testing. Nobody raised a red flag when seeing this??

Considering how there are apologists for every crap mechanic this game has, the designers likely share RoV's opinion that nothing is ever bad with the game and that if you think it's bad that's just YOUR opinion.

So I'm sure the play testers see many of these combos, but the issues they raise are immediately drowned out by other idiot play testers on the play tester forums and ultimately ignored by the design team. Biggs and Lowhhrick and Selflessness are so obviously cancer that I'm sure it was intentionally broken that way, and anyone on the play tester forums that raised an issue with it was most assuredly told that it's not broken constantly.

Everytime that something is ruining this game, there will be people who stubbornly hold onto it. If enough play testers are those people, then that's why FAQ's take so long.

I've been approached by a group of play testers before to join them. They were all casual players. So there is that possibility too, that a significant portion of play testers aren't actually balancing it for competitive play, they're just throwing random jank builds together and submitting a bunch of worthless "chaff" data to FFG.

5 hours ago, clanofwolves said:

This.

...and really this!

This is why Joe Boss has left the faq and arguing behind. I FIX what I hate or needs a little help right here at home just fine thanks. Dam-A-Tournament-Spawned Faq-Mess-Meta!

You ain't gonna mess up my pretty card art on my nice table with HUNDREDS of faq-flump-fixes that I don't even care about because I am not one of the cheese ball players that caused you to make changes in the first place!!!

HEL-NAH...

Stay'n At Home TOOT-TOOT... Play'n At Home TOOT-TOOT; Happy As A Poo-Bear Innah Zoot-Suite!... Strollin Down HONEY Lane!

5 hours ago, gamblertuba said:

It's the point cost, folks. Always has been.

Almost anything can be put in the game so long as the costs add up correctly. The designers are not perfect and the unwillingness to recost the broken cards has led to them chasing their tails with "fix" cards that just lead to new problems.

Or ban. Seriously, at this stage there are enough options in the game it's fair to say "this doesn't work as planned, it goes to the wayside (for tournament play only)."

34 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Considering how there are apologists for every crap mechanic this game has, the designers likely share RoV's opinion that nothing is ever bad with the game and that if you think it's bad that's just YOUR opinion.

So I'm sure the play testers see many of these combos, but the issues they raise are immediately drowned out by other idiot play testers on the play tester forums and ultimately ignored by the design team. Biggs and Lowhhrick and Selflessness are so obviously cancer that I'm sure it was intentionally broken that way, and anyone on the play tester forums that raised an issue with it was most assuredly told that it's not broken constantly.

Everytime that something is ruining this game, there will be people who stubbornly hold onto it. If enough play testers are those people, then that's why FAQ's take so long.

I've been approached by a group of play testers before to join them. They were all casual players. So there is that possibility too, that a significant portion of play testers aren't actually balancing it for competitive play, they're just throwing random jank builds together and submitting a bunch of worthless "chaff" data to FFG.

Yeah, well, from my casual POV, having to rebalance this game every 15 minutes to make it tournament viable is what's sucking all the life out of design progress and creativity.

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Or ban. Seriously, at this stage there are enough options in the game it's fair to say "this doesn't work as planned, it goes to the wayside (for tournament play only)."

Yeah, well, from my casual POV, having to rebalance this game every 15 minutes to make it tournament viable is what's sucking all the life out of design progress and creativity.

Stay'n At Home TOOT-TOOT... Play'n At Home TOOT-TOOT; Happy As A Poo-Bear Innah Zoot-Suite!... Strollin Down HONEY Lane!

1 hour ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

I've been approached by a group of play testers before to join them. They were all casual players. So there is that possibility too, that a significant portion of play testers aren't actually balancing it for competitive play, they're just throwing random jank builds together and submitting a bunch of worthless "chaff" data to FFG.

That would explain why the Palp nerf was overdone and why the scum one did not have any effect...

44 minutes ago, Thormind said:

That would explain why the Palp nerf was overdone and why the scum one did not have any effect...

I agree with the Palp nerf, but you make a good point. It does explain why Palp Defenders got the nerf bat and Attanni Mindlink didn't.

Any scrub can point to why Palpatine is broken. But if you tell a scrub that Mindlink is just as broken if not more so, they'll tell you much it 'hates' stress and doesn't need to be nerfed.

2 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

I've been approached by a group of play testers before to join them.

...so you decided that instead of helping to playtest the game and be co-responsible for its balance, you'd rather shout on the forums instead?

18 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

I agree with the Palp nerf, but you make a good point. It does explain why Palp Defenders got the nerf bat and Attanni Mindlink didn't.

Any scrub can point to why Palpatine is broken. But if you tell a scrub that Mindlink is just as broken if not more so, they'll tell you much it 'hates' stress and doesn't need to be nerfed.

Pretty sure the Palp/Manaroo nerf came literally just as Attani became a popular list. It was decided before that card became common. They were targeting the Dengaroo + Palp Defenders meta from late last year.

45 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

I agree with the Palp nerf, but you make a good point. It does explain why Palp Defenders got the nerf bat and Attanni Mindlink didn't.

Any scrub can point to why Palpatine is broken. But if you tell a scrub that Mindlink is just as broken if not more so, they'll tell you much it 'hates' stress and doesn't need to be nerfed.

Yeah because we see mindlink builds getting screwed by stress so often... If anything it makes them more resistant to stress. The guy who did a kturn still gets a focus as long as one ship after him does a green move or has a source of free focus.

2 hours ago, Thormind said:

That would explain why the Palp nerf was overdone and why the scum one did not have any effect...

Honestly, the Palpatine nerf was fine. He's still crazy efficient for Imperial Aces. And if you brought old palp back, Palp Aces would still be competitively defunct. Triple K-wings and the various Miranda+X builds are what killed Palp Aces.

For what it's worth, though, we're playing with half a wave, at least as it was designed. The Last Jedi getting moved back means that all of the new movie stuff that we would have been getting now is in limbo for six months, despite being finished design-wise. So it's possible anti-bomb and anti-biggs tech got pushed six months.

3 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Considering how there are apologists for every crap mechanic this game has, the designers likely share RoV's opinion that nothing is ever bad with the game and that if you think it's bad that's just YOUR opinion.

All good Salty, perhaps you are starting to realise it isn't all about you. Maybe that's what has gotten you so upset...

15 hours ago, Squark said:

Honestly, the Palpatine nerf was fine. He's still crazy efficient for Imperial Aces. And if you brought old palp back, Palp Aces would still be competitively defunct. Triple K-wings and the various Miranda+X builds are what killed Palp Aces.

Please thats not true at all. Palp aces were not OP pre nerf. They might have been at some points but it stopped long before the FAQ came out. The meta was dominated by scums and both Imperials and Rebels were close to each other. Overall the meta was much more balanced than post FAQ. Proof:

Before FAQ there was 4 scum, 3 rebel and 3 imperial builds in the top 10: http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2017-01-01&ranking_end=2017-03-17&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

After FAQ there was 7 scum, 2 rebel and 1 imperial builds in the top 10: http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2017-03-17&ranking_end=2017-06-17&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=&

Palp is still so "crazy efficient" that hes totally absent from the top 10. You have to go down to the 30th position to first find him, in a decimator. Best result with aces is 53rd.

People said that players just needed an "adaptation" period and Imperial would get back to normal. This is the meta as of today, 4 months after the FAQ: http://meta-wing.com/ship_combos?ranking_start=2017-07-13&ranking_end=2017-07-25&large_tournament_multiplier=true&widespread_use_multiplier=true&use_ranking_data=all&tournament_type=& Still only 1 Imperial build in the top 10 at 8th position with 5 scums and 4 rebels. Best Palp position is 19 in a Decimator (did not win anything in the last month...) and 37th with 2 Tie/SF. Palp aces are totally absent! Crazy efficient...

I think it's more than just Kwings/bombs. There is also the proliferation of fully moded 3-4-5 dices attacks, turret ships and abilities that bypass defense. It's only going to get worst with Nym (bombs + defense bypass), bomblets and that crazy Biggs Lowrisky built.

20 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Please thats not true at all. Palp aces were not OP pre nerf. They might have been at some points but it stopped long before the FAQ came out. The meta was dominated by scums and both Imperials and Rebels were close to each other. Overall the meta was much more balanced than post FAQ. Proof:

Be...........................

Nothing's stopping you playing Palpatine post-nerf. I have been and he's still incredibly good. Over 20+ games I can literally count the number of wasted Palp uses on one hand.

39 minutes ago, CRCL said:

Nothing's stopping you playing Palpatine post-nerf. I have been and he's still incredibly good. Over 20+ games I can literally count the number of wasted Palp uses on one hand.

Yeah, the FAQ that every time i tried he underperformed. Sure i could still win vs less skilled players or when lucky but overall i felt my chances of winning with him were much lower than with another 30 pts ship.

Btw it's impossible to know exactly how many time you "wasted" Palp when using him on offense because you now have to use him before rerolls. Nothing can say if you would have still needed him after that. And because you are using him before, you are removing a dice from your rerolls thus reducing your chances to get the best possible end results.

25 minutes ago, Thormind said:

Yeah, the FAQ that every time i tried he underperformed. Sure i could still win vs less skilled players or when lucky but overall i felt my chances of winning with him were much lower than with another 30 pts ship.

Btw it's impossible to know exactly how many time you "wasted" Palp when using him on offense because you now have to use him before rerolls. Nothing can say if you would have still needed him after that. And because you are using him before, you are removing a dice from your rerolls thus reducing your chances to get the best possible end results.

Like I said, in my experience he's still incredibly strong. +1 evade per turn for whoever needs it is an excellent ability, especially in a list that wants to attrition the opponent. It just requires a bit more thought and understanding of the odds. Also if I'm safe from my opponent's attacks I tend to use Palp offensively on either Omega Leader or the shuttle, neither of which tend to have any offensive re-rolls.

but I fear we've strayed way off topic.