2 hours ago, DR4CO said:

Let's see: Jumpaster + Jumpmaster, Jumpasters + buddy, 3 Jumpasters, Jumpmaster + buddy.

I think I can see the real problem.

Yeah Buddy's are totally OP, nerf all buddy's!

But seriously I'm still waiting for FFG to put their big boy pants on and nerf the **** out of the Jumpmaster. In fact can they just hit all the stupid fat turret ships at once while they're at it? I imagine the game would be a lot more enjoyable without Jumps, Dash, Asajj, Miranda, Ghost, Rey, etc.

Apologies, my salt levels are high today.

I know the feeling. I've been trying to avoid death by soidum overdose for the better part of a year now.

I faced a Miranda Nym the other day with 2 Intensity x7 Engine Upgrade Defenders and a TLT Aggressor.

Got Miranda down to like 2-3 health. Then I did a straight boost instead of committing to an angled boost, didn't have a shot, and lost the game.

I really, really hate facing Miranda. There are often situations where it's not possible to guess where she'll end up, so you just have to pick one direction and go with it. Which means if you guess wrong she'll get multiple shields back.

6 hours ago, LordBlades said:

Passing opinions as fact much ?

There's an awful lot of that going around sadly.

RoV

5 hours ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Having to get things in arc and maneuvering well are core aspects of this game. Turrets ignore these, this is fact.

There have been turrets since Wave 1, primary weapon turrets since wave 2. Stop pretending turrets aren't part of the game, that's just stupid.

Oh and once more, *your* opinion does not = facts kiddo.

IB4 stupid reference to art/music...

RoV

1 hour ago, DR4CO said:

I know the feeling. I've been trying to avoid death by soidum overdose for the better part of a year now.

We still have thrones at least, and death by Dracarys is the purest death.

Just now, Rat of Vengence said:

There have been turrets since Wave 1, primary weapon turrets since wave 2. Stop pretending turrets aren't part of the game, that's just stupid.

Oh and once more, *your* opinion does not = facts kiddo.

IB4 stupid reference to art/music...

RoV

Wave 1 Ion Cannon Turrets or wave 2 Falcon builds are not what we're complaining about. That's a disingenuous comparison and you know it.

Playing turrets is like riding a bicycle with training wheels, or playing bumper bowling, or tee ball. It's the dumbed-down, easy mode version of the game for beginners. People play these ships and win games, get attached to them, and then when you say that turrets are a crutch they get mad.

That's why the only argument that turret apologists can come up with for their crap game mechanic (it's not a game mechanic, it's more of a lack of a game mechanic) is, "That's just your opinion bro". Their only recourse is to destroy the entire concept of a debate on the subject because they can't take part in it.

Turrets wouldn't be so bad if they couldn't barrel or boost. When you have a ship that can always shoot you, but can also arc dodge you as well, that's bad.

Also it was a big mistake not letting more ships (if not all ships) take auto thrusters.

19 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Wave 1 Ion Cannon Turrets or wave 2 Falcon builds are not what we're complaining about. That's a disingenuous comparison and you know it.

Playing turrets is like riding a bicycle with training wheels, or playing bumper bowling, or tee ball. It's the dumbed-down, easy mode version of the game for beginners. People play these ships and win games, get attached to them, and then when you say that turrets are a crutch they get mad.

That's why the only argument that turret apologists can come up with for their crap game mechanic (it's not a game mechanic, it's more of a lack of a game mechanic) is, "That's just your opinion bro". Their only recourse is to destroy the entire concept of a debate on the subject because they can't take part in it.

You still don't get it. You say turrets 'ignore core aspects of the game', but the FACT you seem incapable of comprehending is that turrets ARE a core aspect of the game, dating back to waves 1 and 2. You might like to pretend they wrote the game without any though of how turrets would work, but I really doubt that's the case.

"Oh crap, what do you mean the Falcon has a turret? What are we gonna do now?"

Sure, you don't like turrets, you didn't like them before you got banned as ParaGoombaSlayer too. It doesn't take the Emperor to see it going the same way with your constant whining. I really don't know why you bother playing the game.

imho the biggest issue with nym is noone wants to fly tlt spam against him......

Edit: as much as people dump on quad tlt/LWF aggressors they are going to be one of his hardest matchups

2 minutes ago, markcsoul said:

Also it was a big mistake not letting more ships (if not all ships) take auto thrusters.

Maybe a new mod that cuts out the range 3 part of autothrusters?

2 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

You still don't get it. You say turrets 'ignore core aspects of the game', but the FACT you seem incapable of comprehending is that turrets ARE a core aspect of the game, dating back to waves 1 and 2. You might like to pretend they wrote the game without any though of how turrets would work, but I really doubt that's the case.

"Oh crap, what do you mean the Falcon has a turret? What are we gonna do now?"

Sure, you don't like turrets, you didn't like them before you got banned as ParaGoombaSlayer too. It doesn't take the Emperor to see it going the same way with your constant whining. I really don't know why you bother playing the game.

Wave 1 and 2 turrets were much less powerful relative to the other things present in the meta at the time. I daresay that they were balanced back then. I have no problem with easy mode stuff in the game as long as it's not also high reward.

High risk, high reward or low risk, low reward. But not low risk high reward. It's bad game design.

So when we complain about turrets, or Soontir, or Dengaroo ignoring the stress mechanic for example, obviously we don't mean that Ion Cannon Turret, wave 2 Soontir, or Tycho ignoring stress are problems. Stop bringing up that disingenuous comparison, someone always makes that dumb argument.

5 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Wave 1 and 2 turrets were much less powerful relative to the other things present in the meta at the time. I daresay that they were balanced back then. I have no problem with easy mode stuff in the game as long as it's not also high reward.

High risk, high reward or low risk, low reward. But not low risk high reward. It's bad game design.

So when we complain about turrets, or Soontir, or Dengaroo ignoring the stress mechanic for example, obviously we don't mean that Ion Cannon Turret, wave 2 Soontir, or Tycho ignoring stress are problems. Stop bringing up that disingenuous comparison, someone always makes that dumb argument.

Nope you missed it again. Are you a stormtrooper? You claim the 'core game aspects' are being broken by things that are in the core game from the start.

That's how stupid your argument is.

RoV

40 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Wave 1 and 2 turrets were much less powerful relative to the other things present in the meta at the time. I daresay that they were balanced back then. I have no problem with easy mode stuff in the game as long as it's not also high reward.

So you're trying to say Fat Han was not a thing? The Falcon is a wave 1 turret.

38 minutes ago, Rat of Vengence said:

Nope you missed it again. Are you a stormtrooper? You claim the 'core game aspects' are being broken by things that are in the core game from the start.

That's how stupid your argument is.

RoV

Broken turrets were not a core aspect of the game then. The game also wasn't saturated with them, either.

Like I said earlier, I'm okay with easy to fly things as long as they're not also high reward. Ion Cannon Turret or wave 2 Han is fine.

Just now, LordBlades said:

So you're trying to say Fat Han was not a thing? The Falcon is a wave 1 turret.

The Falcon is wave 2, and 3-CPO and other defensive tech for it wasn't around then.

Just an observation:

• Dengar with his usual slew of upgrades is powerful, but calling him a 'fat turret' is a little bit unfair; since he generally comes laden with torpedoes plus an ability which only works inside his firing arc, so keeping his nose pointed at stuff is important.
• Ditto Rey/Finn, whose firepower and defence require you to keep "this side towards enemy".
• In no way am I not saying these are harsh ships, because you can still fire outside your arc, at high pilot skill, and usually with at least one free modifier (like expertise or K4 droid), but to get your best performance, actually pointing at the opponent does matter in a way it never did with Han or Rear Admiral Chiraneau.
• Equally admittedly, I do find it irksome that making a turret which cared which way it points has been paired with giving the ship with those abilities a white segnors loop (or Millenium Falcon/Kanan Jarrus equivalent).

The short version: I don't especially like turrets either (I'm a swarm player at heart) but at the very least, turrets which give a **** which way they point (Dengar, Rey, Synched Turret) are better for the game than those which don't (Twin Laser Turret, Han, Chiraneau).

2 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Just an observation:

• Dengar with his usual slew of upgrades is powerful, but calling him a 'fat turret' is a little bit unfair; since he generally comes laden with torpedoes plus an ability which only works inside his firing arc, so keeping his nose pointed at stuff is important.
• Ditto Rey/Finn, whose firepower and defence require you to keep "this side towards enemy".
• In no way am I not saying these are harsh ships, because you can still fire outside your arc, at high pilot skill, and usually with at least one free modifier (like expertise or K4 droid), but to get your best performance, actually pointing at the opponent does matter in a way it never did with Han or Rear Admiral Chiraneau.
• Equally admittedly, I do find it irksome that making a turret which cared which way it points has been paired with giving the ship with those abilities a white segnors loop (or Millenium Falcon/Kanan Jarrus equivalent).

The short version: I don't especially like turrets either (I'm a swarm player at heart) but at the very least, turrets which give a **** which way they point (Dengar, Rey, Synched Turret) are better for the game than those which don't (Twin Laser Turret, Han, Chiraneau).

Well yeah, of course that would be great. But the easy mode white sloops make that trivial.

No ships should have white turnaround maneuvers, least of all fat turrets.

A lot of spice in this thread!

The data still needs to collect to see if we are back to the halcyon days of glorious 360 degree floating around and shooting (lookin' at you, Chirpy and Han, ya ol' dancin' fools).

But Dengar and Nym are a different beast as Magnar notes above; Dengar will fight to keep you in arc to proc his (amazing) ability, and Nym's dial feels just too awkward to ever compete with Miranda or Dash or otherthe large base PWTa as an around the mat balarina/TLT kite.

I think more likely we are going to see a surge in TLT play - which both Fair Ship Rebel and the Scurgg|Nym menace don't line to see (Fair Ship because Selflessness and DTF aren't very good versus TLT, and Nym because one green dice melts just too fast to TLT). And of course, until FFG owns up to the fact that the dropped the ball hard on Lowhhrick (srsly, really hard), we will be firmly in the grips of the Biggsconaissance!

But that isn't going to happen. More likely Christian (who is allegedly rather Trumpian in his inability to publically admit error) has poor Alex and Max down in the salt mines working on adding MOAHR RED DICE to the game to deal with this unforseeble Biggs menace!

33 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

Broken turrets were not a core aspect of the game then. The game also wasn't saturated with them, either.

Like I said earlier, I'm okay with easy to fly things as long as they're not also high reward.

In what way are turrets low risk? The turrets you complain about (like Dengar and Rey) require getting arc on target most of the time (they are priced taking their abilities into account, you're not going to win much if you don't trigger them on a regular basis).

You claimed that getting arc on target is easy because these ships have good dials. While true, that's also true for arc-bound ships with good dials (being arc-bound is not much of a limitation if you have a TIE Interceptor dial, Boost AND Barrel Roll at PS9).

So what exactly do you want to see? Arc-bound ships with bad dials?

14 minutes ago, LordBlades said:

In what way are turrets low risk? The turrets you complain about (like Dengar and Rey) require getting arc on target most of the time (they are priced taking their abilities into account, you're not going to win much if you don't trigger them on a regular basis).

You claimed that getting arc on target is easy because these ships have good dials. While true, that's also true for arc-bound ships with good dials (being arc-bound is not much of a limitation if you have a TIE Interceptor dial, Boost AND Barrel Roll at PS9).

So what exactly do you want to see? Arc-bound ships with bad dials?

Arc bound ships without white sloops. What FFG did with Dengar and Rey was try to incentivize flying well and getting things in your arc with your turret. And then it was immediately made easy mode with Dengar's innate 2 white sloop and FFG's stupid wording that allows ships to be at range 1 of themselves on Kanan's card that way he's a 3 point upgrade that gives a ship a completely green dial without having to jump through any hoops.

It's like the Phantom. Create a very cool cloaking mechanic that you break right out of the gate with Advanced Cloaking Device. Create interesting turrets that are rewarded for getting things in their arcs, and instantly break the mechanic by allowing them to flip around as if they're TIE Defenders.

And 'bad dial' is an utterly meaningless term now. This community will ***** about any dial that doesn't have green hard turns.

9 hours ago, Blail Blerg said:

Nah brah. They're both great opinions.

How many times does Big daddy Joe got to tell you of the evils of ace-wing... STAY OUT!

Just now, Joe Boss Red Seven said:

How many times does Big daddy Joe got to tell you of the evils of ace-wing... STAY OUT!

Brah. I am the gatekeeper of all evils. You know i stand for the little guy. That HWK will one day have its day. In the sun next to every other big boy on the block.

2 minutes ago, Blail Blerg said:

Brah. I am the gatekeeper of all evils. You know i stand for the little guy. That HWK will one day have its day. In the sun next to every other big boy on the block.

... ROOM 237 IS ace-wing... and peeps try'n to make excuses for it...hee, hee!