43 minutes ago, marlowc said:No offence, but this is why I don't play in tournaments. If anyone came to one of our group games with this list they would suffer death by derision and scorn
K.
I mean... that might be part of your issue with Sato too, then. If you laugh out people who show up with competitive lists...
20 minutes ago, Ardaedhel said:K.
I mean... that might be part of your issue with Sato too, then. If you laugh out people who show up with competitive lists...
I think you may be right. Nobody in our group is a win-at-all-costs type of player, not in any of the games we play. I'm beginning to realise what a huge gulf there is between the meta of a casual game, and the rarefied upper reaches of the serious competitive scene. Many people seem to genuinely enjoy the thrill of tournaments though, so go for it I say. It's just not my cup of tea I'm afraid.
1 hour ago, Sniperbon said:Fair enough, I do actually play "normal" games and have a high win ratio with Sato. Anyways I would put my hands up and say I would definitely lose against that list.
For the record I didn't say my Sato list was "unkillable" just giving Sato a fair hearing.
But you're list does highlight one of the reasons why I prefer to play with our pass mechanic.
In all most all Tournament games, the two most important question's is...
Who is first and who has the most activation's.
If one player has both, then they will most definitely win. And here is why.
If a player has both, then is is obvious that they will out "activate" the opponent and always have their most important ship go last/first. And there is nothing the opponent can do about this, no amount of maneuvering/setup/shooting/objectives or commands can stop someone from doing that. It is no longer a tactical choice in the game because no other choice is anywhere near as good as activating you're ship last, jumping into range. Going first, firing and then flying off.
Fair play on the list though. No offense but when I see people using Demo/ISD I MC30's with 6-8 activation lists, all I see is the exploitation of the activate mechanic in the game.
You're "tactical" skill comes from the fact that the three transports force me to activate my ships first.
I won my local store championship with a five activation fleet. In two games I was outbid and out activated, and went second, and I still won.
While I agree that more activations is an advantage, it's not insurmountable. And with a well crafted fleet, you can go second and still win.
ive never run more than five ships. Well. Except that 1500 point game.....
58 minutes ago, marlowc said:I think you may be right. Nobody in our group is a win-at-all-costs type of player, not in any of the games we play. I'm beginning to realise what a huge gulf there is between the meta of a casual game, and the rarefied upper reaches of the serious competitive scene. Many people seem to genuinely enjoy the thrill of tournaments though, so go for it I say. It's just not my cup of tea I'm afraid.
I think you'll find that player mix matters more than rules. You can make all the adjustments you want to the rules, but at the end of the day, if you have a win at all costs ****** in your midst, there's no fixing it. I encourage you to have some faith in each other and play the game as tested and intended. If you find something to be just too much for your meta, come to a gentleman's agreement to not take that thing for a bit. I consider myself to be a competitive player (1x Regional Vhamp, 2x Store Champ, and I routinely play against a former World Champ) but there are a great many even amongst that group that actively shun the popular trends in favor of trying something different.
Based off your:
-modified rules
-locally shared attitude towards fleet design
-dislike for the tournament environment
-staunch resistance to try Sato in an unmodified environment
I would say then that your nerf to Sato is justified based on the above. End of the day its about the fun that you and your group want to have afterall.
Good luck to you sir! ?
Here's why a pass rule is bad for this game. I don't know about your custom objectives so I can't comment on them as fighting MSU lists often comes down to "play the objective and make them pay for first". With your pass rule AND bidding for first why would I not take something like this?
1 • Gladiator II-class Star Destroyer - Ordnance Experts - Engine Techs - Assault Proton Torpedoes - Demolisher (89)
2 • Imperial I-class Star Destroyer - Captain Needa - Boarding Troopers - Leading Shots - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits - Avenger (131)
3 • Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier - Admiral Sloane - Wulff Yularen - Flight Controllers - Expanded Hangar Bay - Boosted Comms (100)
4 • ''Howlrunner'' TIE Fighter Squadron (16)
5 • Valen Rudor TIE Fighter Squadron (13)
6 • Ciena Ree TIE Interceptor Squadron (17)
7 • Saber Squadron TIE Interceptor Squadron (12)
8 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)
9 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)
I sit back let you come to me, annihilate one of your ships with Avenger bidding heavily(if not all) of my bid points for the turn I know I'll need first, turn 3-4, to guarantee it. This fighter complement will delete almost anything it comes up against with swarm boosted 6 blue dice interceptors and 3b2b Valen(this is evil and has one-shot X-wings). Sloane now means they aren't useless against ships and, in fact, are quite mean. Oh and a Glad 2 Demo for AA boost to guarantee clear skies, then, ship killin'.
Tone is hard over the internet and the above may seem like I'm trying to browbeat your house rules and say you are having badwrongfun, if you like it keep doing it, but this game was designed with activations having a quantity/quality balance and it just throws the balance all the way to quality when you add a pass rule, which I suppose is something you guys were going for. Trying to give suggestions with incomplete information about the rules you play under is tricky.
Or how about this?
1 • Victory II-class Star Destroyer - Admiral Sloane - Gunnery Team - Disposable Capacitors - SW-7 Ion Batteries - Quad Battery Turrets (129)
2 • Victory II-class Star Destroyer - Gunnery Team - Disposable Capacitors - SW-7 Ion Batteries - Quad Battery Turrets (105)
3 • Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier - Flight Controllers - Boosted Comms - Expanded Hangar Bay (69)
4 • Colonel Jendon Lambda-class Shuttle (20)
5 • Maarek Stele TIE Defender Squadron (21)
6 • TIE Defender Squadron (16)
7 • TIE Defender Squadron (16)
8 • TIE Defender Squadron (16)
9 • TIE Fighter Squadron (8)
I guess basically I'm saying Sloane+FC/Howlrunner boosted fighters eat rebel fighters alive then munch on ships. And with a pass rule, big ships rule. Bring big, heavy hitters and 6-10 fighters for deployment padding so you can have a good idea where to place your big hitters.
3 minutes ago, Teh HOBO said:Here's why a pass rule is bad for this game. I don't know about your custom objectives so I can't comment on them as fighting MSU lists often comes down to "play the objective and make them pay for first". With your pass rule AND bidding for first why would I not take something like this?
1 • Gladiator II-class Star Destroyer - Ordnance Experts - Engine Techs - Assault Proton Torpedoes - Demolisher (89)
2 • Imperial I-class Star Destroyer - Captain Needa - Boarding Troopers - Leading Shots - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits - Avenger (131)
3 • Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier - Admiral Sloane - Wulff Yularen - Flight Controllers - Expanded Hangar Bay - Boosted Comms (100)
4 • ''Howlrunner'' TIE Fighter Squadron (16)
5 • Valen Rudor TIE Fighter Squadron (13)
6 • Ciena Ree TIE Interceptor Squadron (17)
7 • Saber Squadron TIE Interceptor Squadron (12)
8 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)
9 • TIE Interceptor Squadron (11)I sit back let you come to me, annihilate one of your ships with Avenger bidding heavily(if not all) of my bid points for the turn I know I'll need first, turn 3-4, to guarantee it. This fighter complement will delete almost anything it comes up against with swarm boosted 6 blue dice interceptors and 3b2b Valen(this is evil and has one-shot X-wings). Sloane now means they aren't useless against ships and, in fact, are quite mean. Oh and a Glad 2 Demo for AA boost to guarantee clear skies, then, ship killin'.
Tone is hard over the internet and the above may seem like I'm trying to browbeat your house rules and say you are having badwrongfun, if you like it keep doing it, but this game was designed with activations having a quantity/quality balance and it just throws the balance all the way to quality when you add a pass rule, which I suppose is something you guys were going for. Trying to give suggestions with incomplete information about the rules you play under is tricky.
Or how about this?
1 • Victory II-class Star Destroyer - Admiral Sloane - Gunnery Team - Disposable Capacitors - SW-7 Ion Batteries - Quad Battery Turrets (129)
2 • Victory II-class Star Destroyer - Gunnery Team - Disposable Capacitors - SW-7 Ion Batteries - Quad Battery Turrets (105)
3 • Quasar Fire I-class Cruiser-Carrier - Flight Controllers - Boosted Comms - Expanded Hangar Bay (69)
4 • Colonel Jendon Lambda-class Shuttle (20)
5 • Maarek Stele TIE Defender Squadron (21)
6 • TIE Defender Squadron (16)
7 • TIE Defender Squadron (16)
8 • TIE Defender Squadron (16)
9 • TIE Fighter Squadron (8)I guess basically I'm saying Sloane+FC/Howlrunner boosted fighters eat rebel fighters alive then munch on ships. And with a pass rule, big ships rule. Bring big, heavy hitters and 6-10 fighters for deployment padding so you can have a good idea where to place your big hitters.
Those two lists are spookily like a couple of mine - you must be a mind reader! Have had a lot of fun with both of them, especially now Ciena has finally got a regulation haircut
.
The pass rule isn't bad for the game, just changes it to a form we all prefer. Give it a go, you might like it
.
58 minutes ago, marlowc said:Those two lists are spookily like a couple of mine - you must be a mind reader! Have had a lot of fun with both of them, especially now Ciena has finally got a regulation haircut
The pass rule isn't bad for the game, just changes it to a form we all prefer. Give it a go, you might like it
I have. I hate it for all the reasons stated above. Right now, while large ships have some difficulties, they're perfectly worthwhile. With a pass mechanic, the pendulum swings the other way to the extreme. Small ships lose their place in the game altogether.
There is a pass mechanic in Armada already. It's called flotillas.
Fair enough if you don't like the pass mechanic, but here is my counter to your strategy.
"I sit back let you come to me, annihilate one of your ships with Avenger bidding heavily(if not all) of my bid points for the turn I know I'll need first, turn 3-4, to guarantee it. This fighter complement will delete almost anything it comes up against with swarm boosted 6 blue dice interceptors and 3b2b Valen(this is evil and has one-shot X-wings). Sloane now means they aren't useless against ships and, in fact, are quite mean. Oh and a Glad 2 Demo for AA boost to guarantee clear skies, then, ship killin'."
If we are playing for "bidding every turn" you will either not bid any points until you need them for Avenger/BT in which case I will go first for every round until then, and every round after (because you have bidded all of you're points). But also it makes you're force highly predictable if you are relying on going last/first.
With the bidding system a player can "bait" an opponent, by this I mean I set up a ship behind the main one you will jump in and then shoot next turn, meanwhile you might destroy one ship but my other one next to it will fire when you move into range, but more importantly I will go first next turn, so it will fire again.
If you are playing the normal rules a player cannot do this. Because one player will always go first, but in this scenario an MC30/gladitor/ raider with external racks will fire twice at you're ship after you have done you're maneuver.
By having the player "bid" for turns, the individual places his/hers own value on each turn, but the more value he/her places on a turn, the higher chance it is for the other player to go first next. Thus resetting the place of power in the game. And it makes it so a plan is never "guaranteed". So you can't ever have a scenario when one of your ships will ALWAYS go first every turn. Where as, in the normal game this is the case.
While "alpha striking" isn't a new concept in the game, only up to now with the Quazar have people seen that activating squadrons all at once in a key rule for winning the squadron game.
In this scenario lets say you did. While it is powerful, I highly doubt you could destroy all of a players squadrons. Maximum of 6 (with a bit of luck), so the rest fire back, but more importantly, because there is no guarantee of who will be first player next, there is a good chance that the other player will go first next round and then wipe out you're squadrons. Again, if this was a normal game you can Alpha strike on you're last activation, then first on the next round, firing twice for the opponents one.
"but this game was designed with activation's having a quantity/quality balance and it just throws the balance all the way to quality when you add a pass rule"
I would actually agree with you if they hadn't put the GR 75 and the Gozanti in the game.
For the Rebel player you can pay 18pts to effectively "pass" making the imperials suffer for having large ships. 18pts to always have "tactical" superiority every turn in the game is crazy, and has nothing to do with player skill. Same goes for the Gozanti.
Why does a player get penalized for wanting to bring a Dual ISD list? Or two big ships? The worst thing about it is that a player can do NOTHING if the opponent can out activate them by 2+ or have first player and 1+ activation. No amount of Skill/tactic/objective/commands or Guns can stop an opponent from doing that.
A Dual ISD list has nothing in its arsenal for stopping an MC30/Glad for going last/first effectively firing twice before their ship gets a turn, in which case the ship has then flown out of range of its guns anyway.
Without a pass mechanic, small ships real value come from having more activation's, thus making all of you're ships better because they can react much better to any decision the opponent makes.
I would really enjoy having a crack at those fleets.
For the record I do actually play the game normally. And while the game is good , I feel that certain mechanics get exploited and palmed off as "player skill" when it really isn't.
Any player can fly a 7 list activation with a 20 point bid.
Its funny how awhile back two arguments were on the forums, One was about Life-boats (which in our "modded" version we had changed well before the official ruling) and the other was the concept of "passing".
I don't think anyone is saying that the pass mechanic is bad per se . Simply that ships, squadrons and upgrades are currently costed to be balanced without this mechanic. If you change one, but not the other, this balance will inevitably shift, making certain units too good and others simply uncompetitive.
Seriously, I'm totally down with modding the game - I've definitely done my share of work in that sense! But what does not seem reasonable is to fundamentally alter the game and then complain that some bits no longer work acceptably.
"Simply that ships, squadrons and upgrades are currently costed to be balanced without this mechanic. If you change one, but not the other, this balance will inevitably shift, making certain units too good and others simply uncompetitive".
I understand what you are saying, but that's why game designers errata rules. Or change the costs of upgrades.
I still think that Sato is too cheap for his points, in a normal game.
And I'm complaining that large ships are too crap in the normal game too. Due to Activation advantage and first player.
17 minutes ago, DiabloAzul said:But what does not seem reasonable is to fundamentally alter the game and then complain that some bits no longer work acceptably.
I think only a fool would do that. When modding a game it's almost always necessary to also make some minor changes to restore the balance isn't it.
1 hour ago, Sniperbon said:
Why does a player get penalized for wanting to bring a Dual ISD list? Or two big ships? The worst thing about it is that a player can do NOTHING if the opponent can out activate them by 2+ or have first player and 1+ activation. No amount of Skill/tactic/objective/commands or Guns can stop an opponent from doing that.
.
I agree that if a player wants to out activate you and outbid you, there is nothing you can do (except play the same, meh)
I heavily disagree with the rest of your statement.
Last store championship: my bud @Destraa was flying two ISD with a raider, Gozantis and a couple of ties.he came in second.
I flew five ships (three glads, two Gozanti) with six squadrons. 400 points total. Knowing I'd go second every game, I picked objectives to suit (most wanted, hyperspace assault, dangerous territory) and used them to my advantage. I won all three of my games, despite being outbid on all three, and out activated in two, directly due to me playing strictly to the objective ( in one game with hyperspace assault, the threat of Insidious lurking off board was enough to completely skew my opponents set up.). I won the tourney.
I agree that activation and bid advantage can be a huge force multiplier. I disagree that it is insurmountable. Good fleet selection, objective play, and good flying can offset the disadvantage considerably.
1 hour ago, Sniperbon said:I still think that Sato is too cheap for his points, in a normal game.
You're welcome to that opinion - but please be aware that, aside from being very much in the minority, it does not appear to be supported by available tournament data (thanks @shmitty !) .
1 hour ago, Sniperbon said:And I'm complaining that large ships are too crap in the normal game too. Due to Activation advantage and first player.
That's an entirely different issue, and much less clear-cut. ISDs are very well represented in tournament-winning lists, but the same cannot be said for MC80s. The recent flotilla & Riekaan nerfs are likely to have a positive impact, however.
1 hour ago, marlowc said:I think only a fool would do that.
And yet here we are...
I guess I'm a fool, then, running a double ISD list at a SC, taking second, and beating the vaunted Sato Shrimp and Ackbar Shrimp scariness along the way. My only loss was to @Darth Lupine during the entire day. The key to running large ships is rather simple, deceptively so. Keep them light. You can't expect to run Wave II whales and get the same mileage out of current game state where most fleets have five activations. By giving them the Atkins treatment lets you keep those large base ships and the support they need to make up for their lack of Christmas cheer.
Edited by Destraa15 hours ago, Teh HOBO said:I guess basically I'm saying Sloane+FC/Howlrunner boosted fighters eat rebel fighters alive then munch on ships. And with a pass rule, big ships rule. Bring big, heavy hitters and 6-10 fighters for deployment padding so you can have a good idea where to place your big hitters.
That sounds like an awesome game. Massive ships and piles of fighters - just like the last battle in Empire Strikes Back.
1 hour ago, Destraa said:I guess I'm a fool, then, running a double ISD list at a SC, taking second, and beating the vaunted Sato Shrimp and Ackbar Shrimp scariness along the way. My only loss was to @Darth Lupine during the entire day. The key to running large ships is rather simple, deceptively so. Keep them light. You can't expect to run Wave II whales and get the same mileage out of current game state where most fleets have five activations. By giving them the Atkins treatment lets you keep those large base ships and the support they need to make up for their lack of Christmas cheer.
I'm sorry, you seem to have lost me there. I was saying it would be foolish to mod the game without making a few tweaks to restore balance, and then complain about the loss of balance. How do tournament results with the standard game help with this?
Congratulations on your success by the way. I too have a soft spot for the mighty ISD
.
13 minutes ago, marlowc said:I'm sorry, you seem to have lost me there. I was saying it would be foolish to mod the game without making a few tweaks to restore balance, and then complain about the loss of balance. How do tournament results with the standard game help with this?
Congratulations on your success by the way. I too have a soft spot for the mighty ISD
The joys of text! Context doesn't always translate well. ? And thank you! They're definitely not beginner friendly ships these days and take a lot of long term strategizing to work well in the current format.
49 minutes ago, Destraa said:The joys of text! Context doesn't always translate well. ? And thank you! They're definitely not beginner friendly ships these days and take a lot of long term strategizing to work well in the current format.
I've never taken 2 ISD's (I'd have to borrow one ), but I don't think it would go well somehow
. Do you think your success was partly down to the surprise/shock element?
I won with a 3 ISD list just last week. But it was most certainly down to the surprise/shock element!
Now that my game group has seen it on the table - it's days are numbered.
24 minutes ago, marlowc said:I've never taken 2 ISD's (I'd have to borrow one ), but I don't think it would go well somehow
I own three, and am planning a list with them.
im the only one that knew Destraa was bringing twin ISD, and the shock effect was evident. I was prepared for this, but the other players were not, and I don't think they really had a clue how to handle it.
46 minutes ago, marlowc said:I've never taken 2 ISD's (I'd have to borrow one ), but I don't think it would go well somehow
Considering both are also jet black and incredibly menacing looking on the table? Very much so. But I don't think it was a huge contributing factor to my success. I've practiced with a dual ISD layout often, and know how to work their navigation charts to pull some very unexpected maneuvers in tight quarters at speed 2, which is where a lot of my success came from. Effectively cutting off safe routes that, in turn, land you in black dice range or overlapping non-station obstacles, at the same range was the real key.
25 minutes ago, Darth Lupine said:I own three, and am planning a list with them.
im the only one that knew Destraa was bringing twin ISD, and the shock effect was evident. I was prepared for this, but the other players were not, and I don't think they really had a clue how to handle it.
Definitely agree that they didn't know how to approach dual Motti ISDs.