Even our Rebel players think Sato is a bit too strong, (can't print what the Imperials think ). After much deliberation we are going for this modified version of the card, what do people think of it?

I think Sato is fine where he is at. My issue with using him is I never know what ships to use. I don't see any apparent synergies with him.

The balance with Sato comes from the squads. If you kill the squads, you kill Sato. If you decide not to run squads, you better use some AA.

I'd like to know what your group is flying him with and against. Sato has not been over performing in store champs this season, or in w5 regionals. If anything, he's been underperforming.

Edit: not badly underperforming. About half of the expected top brackets, and an increase in the bottom brackets. My read is that some Sato players have figured him out, and others are still experimenting.

Our Rebels always take plenty of squadrons with Sato, which are of course perfectly effective in their own right. In practice it's impossible to kill them all before turn 6, or turn 5 at the earliest, so for most of the game the rebels are dumping black dice, with the occasional blue for targeting, from long range. Add the ability to make your Concentrate Fire die black, this seems too strong to me.

Also, from a thematic point of view, if the squadron is busy artillery spotting, it can't also be doing anything else can it. (Of course, I understand realism has to take a back seat in this type of game .)

Given that Sato is 32 points I think he's costed just fine for what he does and doesn't need any errata. I look at it this way, you need to spend 32 points on him PLUS you need to spend a solid chunk of your points on squadrons AND have the right mix of ships to activate them AND get them within distance one of a ship. I see all of these as extra costs on Sato's use. Plus you have the issue of being able to activate enough squadrons that are tough enough to stay alive in the event that your opponents have solid fighter compliments of their own and potentially have to split them up to cover enough of the enemy fleet to get the most use out of him. Is he **** annoying when you're getting APT'd at long range? Absolutely, but, there are a lot of moving pieces that had to fall into place before that could happen.

1 minute ago, Baltanok said:

I'd like to know what your group is flying him with and against. Sato has not been over performing in store champs this season, or in w5 regionals. If anything, he's been underperforming.

He gets used in a wide range of lists, against a wide range of Imperial fleets, and we are all casual players, nobody plays the "beardy" tournament lists that you see online .

We also play a significantly modified version of the game, so detailed analysis of the fleets probably isn't useful. (No missions, bidding for first activation each turn, passing if opponent has more activations remaining than you, and totally changed collision rules.)

2 minutes ago, marlowc said:

He gets used in a wide range of lists, against a wide range of Imperial fleets, and we are all casual players, nobody plays the "beardy" tournament lists that you see online .

We also play a significantly modified version of the game, so detailed analysis of the fleets probably isn't useful. (No missions, bidding for first activation each turn, passing if opponent has more activations remaining than you, and totally changed collision rules.)

We'll that's probably part of your problem with him right there.

10 minutes ago, Grinoch said:

Given that Sato is 32 points I think he's costed just fine for what he does and doesn't need any errata. I look at it this way, you need to spend 32 points on him PLUS you need to spend a solid chunk of your points on squadrons AND have the right mix of ships to activate them AND get them within distance one of a ship. I see all of these as extra costs on Sato's use. Plus you have the issue of being able to activate enough squadrons that are tough enough to stay alive in the event that your opponents have solid fighter compliments of their own and potentially have to split them up to cover enough of the enemy fleet to get the most use out of him. Is he **** annoying when you're getting APT'd at long range? Absolutely, but, there are a lot of moving pieces that had to fall into place before that could happen.

Our Rebel players will be the first to admit that they're not geniuses, but they have no trouble at all getting all these moving pieces together .

Just now, Grinoch said:

We'll that's probably part of your problem with him right there.

How do you mean?

You're playing a " significantly modified version of the game". If you're not playing the missions then the non Sato player is missing out on opportunities for points or other advantages that might help overcome Sato. By bidding each turn the other player is missing out on the potential of consistent initiative advantage, i.e. activating first and killing squadrons before the Sato fleet can make use of them. Passing allows the Sato player to sit back and wait for the optimum time if they have fewer ships. The collision rules don't really play into it much but they might in certain cases. Sato as written is balanced for the rules as written game.

1 minute ago, Grinoch said:

You're playing a " significantly modified version of the game". If you're not playing the missions then the non Sato player is missing out on opportunities for points or other advantages that might help overcome Sato. By bidding each turn the other player is missing out on the potential of consistent initiative advantage, i.e. activating first and killing squadrons before the Sato fleet can make use of them. Passing allows the Sato player to sit back and wait for the optimum time if they have fewer ships. The collision rules don't really play into it much but they might in certain cases. Sato as written is balanced for the rules as written game.

Our game mods don't benefit either faction significantly, apart from Passing, which certainly removes an advantage that normally applies to rebel fleets. So I really don't think our house rules are the issue.

It's definitely true to say that Sato isn't dominating competitive play, so perhaps it's the more casual meta in our group that's the problem?

Ummm...what? Sato? Really?! Ummm...I got nothing. It's not like he can even add dice. His only real use is triggering black dice critical effects at long range. How in the world are your Imperial players have a hard time with him in particular? I don't even know where to start. They're not complaining about Ackbar? Or Rieekan? They're complaining about Sato?! What is this parallel dimension we've slipped into?

2 minutes ago, Truthiness said:

Ummm...what? Sato? Really?! Ummm...I got nothing. It's not like he can even add dice. His only real use is triggering black dice critical effects at long range. How in the world are your Imperial players have a hard time with him in particular? I don't even know where to start. They're not complaining about Ackbar? Or Rieekan? They're complaining about Sato?! What is this parallel dimension we've slipped into?

No ones complaining about Sato exactly, and yes those other cards are **** strong. We just feel things would be more fun if he was down graded a bit. At the moment, the only counter to him that seems to work reliably is going all out to kill the ship he's on . Gets a bit boring after a while.

If nothing else - its impossible to judge balance against things - either for an initial version or a house rules version, when people are judging based on different baselines.

If you've modified the way you play the game - I'm sorry. Asking for advice from people who do not play that way is fruitless... I wish we could give better advice, but our advice is inherently biased and based on the only thing we - as a community - generally have in common... And that's the base rules.

In demonstrative - but anecdotal - parlance, all we can reinforce is what Baltanok said - in a game space with reported results, using the baseline rules, Sato's "Okay", but he's not "Fantastic, Nerf Nao Plz" ...

So given that, we have to look at your Variables and why is Sato that much better? - The only way you'll be able to tell if the House Rules are an issue or not, is to remove them as a variable - then try to see if Sato is Unbalanced in that format... What people here are trying to tell you is that he, generally is not considered to be... That makes your Sato experiences, again, generally speaking, an outlier based on what is gathered, scientific data...

As for the card, Its an interesting concept, to be sure... But I don't think I'd ever play Sato the moment the enemy can Screed-Fletchette Torpedo my Admiral into uselessness.

34 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

If nothing else - its impossible to judge balance against things - either for an initial version or a house rules version, when people are judging based on different baselines.

If you've modified the way you play the game - I'm sorry. Asking for advice from people who do not play that way is fruitless... I wish we could give better advice, but our advice is inherently biased and based on the only thing we - as a community - generally have in common... And that's the base rules.

In demonstrative - but anecdotal - parlance... The only way you'll be able to tell if the House Rules are an issue or not, is to remove them as a variable - then try to see if Sato is Unbalanced in that format... What people here are trying to tell you is that he, generally is not considered to be... That makes your Sato experiences, again, generally speaking, an outlier based on what is gathered, scientific data...

As for the card, Its an interesting concept, to be sure... But I don't think I'd ever play Sato the moment the enemy can Screed-Fletchette Torpedo my Admiral into uselessness.

I hear what you're saying, I was just after people's general view rather than a detailed rules analysis. It seems that we are very much in a minority thinking that Sato needs tweaking - which is interesting to see.

Ironically, Flechettes would work against our modded Sato, but against the standard one - no joy I'm afraid . In fact they're yet another killer black die effect that Sato maximises .

Just now, marlowc said:

I hear what you're saying, I was just after people's general view rather than a detailed rules analysis. I seems that we are very much in a minority thinking that Sato needs tweaking - which is interesting to see.

Ironically, Flechettes would work against our modded Sato, but against the standard one - no joy I'm afraid . In fact they're yet another killer black die effect that Sato maximises .

Sato only works when firing at Ships.

So Sato does nothing for ships who wish to fire Fletchette Torpedoes.

3 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

Sato only works when firing at Ships.

So Sato does nothing for ships who wish to fire Fletchette Torpedoes.

Good point, well made . But flechettes are still little use against him - the squadron is still sat there.

So I came here expecting to see a thread about house ruling Sato to increase his power only to find there is some group living in a fallout bunker that plays Armada that's already heavily house ruled into a different creature altogether that thinks Sato is too powerful and needs to be toned down with more house rules.

It's been a wild ride.

2 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

So I came here expecting to see a thread about house ruling Sato to increase his power only to find there is some group living in a fallout bunker that plays Armada that's already heavily house ruled into a different creature altogether that thinks Sato is too powerful and needs to be toned down with more house rules.

It's been a wild ride.

Indeed, that's about the size of it. So, what do you think of our proposed Sato mod?

9 minutes ago, marlowc said:

Good point, well made . But flechettes are still little use against him - the squadron is still sat there.

But that's what I meant with your proposed mod. With your proposed mod, the Fletchettes remove that squad entirely, because it can't be activated in order to use its activation.

And that can quickly become a guarantee when you've got a double-black (or a blue-black) die thrower with Screed.

Just now, marlowc said:

Indeed, that's about the size of it. So, what do you think of our proposed Sato mod?

My gut feeling is it's unnecessary. Sato's not top tier. Some could argue he's not even second tier, but that's a lot more contentious (I feel he's second tier, myself). I'm not sure if you guys are getting some element of his rules wrong* or if your extensive house rules create some weird situation where Sato is too good somehow. As soon as you have a closed ecosystem like that, the rest of us playing with the regular rules just don't even know what we're dealing with anymore because our experiences are based on different assumptions.

*You're replacing the dice prior to the initial roll, right? You're still treating the attack as happening from its actual range, right (so black dice at long range can still be evaded)?

5 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

But that's what I meant with your proposed mod. With your proposed mod, the Fletchettes remove that squad entirely, because it can't be activated in order to use its activation.

And that can quickly become a guarantee when you've got a double-black (or a blue-black) die thrower with Screed.

Ahh - I see what you mean. Yes, with our mod flechettes and Screed would work - but there are precious few Imperial ships that I personally take, with black AA dice.

1 minute ago, marlowc said:

Ahh - I see what you mean. Yes, with our mod flechettes and Screed would work - but there are precious few Imperial ships that I personally take, with black AA dice.

So what you're saying is that in your totally modded game, flying a list you won't change, against an Admiral that looks to be the counter for your list, you want to mod the Admiral that's causing you issues.

And you want to ask the community that plays the base game if it's a good mod?

smh...

3 minutes ago, Snipafist said:

My gut feeling is it's unnecessary. Sato's not top tier. Some could argue he's not even second tier, but that's a lot more contentious (I feel he's second tier, myself). I'm not sure if you guys are getting some element of his rules wrong* or if your extensive house rules create some weird situation where Sato is too good somehow. As soon as you have a closed ecosystem like that, the rest of us playing with the regular rules just don't even know what we're dealing with anymore because our experiences are based on different assumptions.

*You're replacing the dice prior to the initial roll, right? You're still treating the attack as happening from its actual range, right (so black dice at long range can still be evaded)?

You're right, I can't expect other players to give a detailed analysis of the situation as it's not what you're used to. To be honest though, I'm confident that our house rules haven't changed the game that much at the tactical level. The ships, and their cards all work pretty much exactly the same. It's interesting to see that people don't seem to think Sato needs changing, and nobody much likes our proposed version

6 minutes ago, Kendraam said:

So what you're saying is that in your totally modded game, flying a list you won't change, against an Admiral that looks to be the counter for your list, you want to mod the Admiral that's causing you issues.

And you want to ask the community that plays the base game if it's a good mod?

smh...

Who else could I ask, at least you guys play the game (even if it is a much inferior version ). And rest assured, we've tried several lists against him - you just kill the ship he's on. But, that's a bit boring after a while, so we thought to try something new.