2 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

Maybe I've gotten some timeline mixed up. Isn't TFA like 45-50ish years after ANH?

No specific date is given for the A wing's creation as far as I could find, but the article seems to indicate the prototype was made very soon after the clone war's end. So if its been 45ish years since the battle of Yavin and that was 20ish years after the end of the clone wars, then that would make the A wing no less than 55 years old.

30 years after RotJ. Not sure about the gap for ANH though.

5 hours ago, drail14me said:

B-52.....dropping bombs since 1955!! That's almost 63 years IN SERVICE!! No replacement in sight!

Thank you! And by the end of their service it'll be 90 year!!!

2 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

Thanks for helping me prove my point. You can see clear advancement in design in your examples. Now, when you compare the OT TIE to the FO TIE or the T-65 to the T-70, there's barely any advancement in design despite nearly the same amount of time elapsed.

It could be that there has been less advancement in design because there was this huge rebellion and a civil war that destroyed a ton of infrastructure.....a star war.....(ha ha)

6 hours ago, Verlaine said:

Maybe it won't be called "A-Wing". To avoid chardaan refit.

Or it could have Torpedoes instead of Missiles. The two talent title still works, though, if it has A-wing in the name.

2 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

Thanks for helping me prove my point. You can see clear advancement in design in your examples. Now, when you compare the OT TIE to the FO TIE or the T-65 to the T-70, there's barely any advancement in design despite nearly the same amount of time elapsed.

How do you define advancement? The on-screen capabilities of the fighters is rarely as granular as the fans and EU stuff make it out to be.

2 hours ago, AngryAlbatross said:

It could be that there has been less advancement in design because there was this huge rebellion and a civil war that destroyed a ton of infrastructure.....a star war.....(ha ha)

The same could be said about the Clone Wars and the OT, yet technology advanced.

2 hours ago, Koing907 said:

How do you define advancement? The on-screen capabilities of the fighters is rarely as granular as the fans and EU stuff make it out to be.

Well, they're not using the ARC-170s or Jedi Starfighters en masse during the OT, so I'd say the ship designs advanced.

11 minutes ago, weisguy119 said:

Well, they're not using the ARC-170s or Jedi Starfighters en masse during the OT, so I'd say the ship designs advanced.

Or the opressive Regime that is our Glorious Empire disposes of material that is no longer of use.

We have seen automated stations breaking down old y-wings.

6 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

Thanks for helping me prove my point. You can see clear advancement in design in your examples. Now, when you compare the OT TIE to the FO TIE or the T-65 to the T-70, there's barely any advancement in design despite nearly the same amount of time elapsed.

Evolution vs. Revolution.

Compare WWI Fighters to WWII Fighters Hugh difference, say 25 years. A HUGE advance in fighter technology. Now Compare the End of the Cold War to today, another 25 years. Not so much. (Time of war vs. Time of peace, sort of.)

The best way to think of the X-Wing T-65 to the T-70 is like an F-18C vs an F-18E. In reality they are almost completely different aircraft. The F-18E was sold as an "upgrade" to push it through congress, but they only share something like only 30% of the same parts. They really are vastly different aircraft, even though they look very similar.

Yes, I know we have the F-22 which came out at the end of the cold war and now the JSF, but the F-18E is currently the mainstay "new" aircraft of the US armed force, and a stop gap waiting for the 5th gen aircraft. The F-15s keep kicking, and the F-16 have had some huge improvements, but the best example is how the F-18C to F-18E.

49 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Or the opressive Regime that is our Glorious Empire disposes of material that is no longer of use.

We have seen automated stations breaking down old y-wings.

It's no longer of use for a reason. They were breaking down old Y-wings because they were outdated. The Rebellion only used them out of necessity. Yet, they didn't use Arc-170s or Jedi starfighters. That speaks to how outdated those designs were. The Jedi Starfighter didn't even have an onboard hyperdrive.

28 minutes ago, Jadotch said:

Evolution vs. Revolution.

Compare WWI Fighters to WWII Fighters Hugh difference, say 25 years. A HUGE advance in fighter technology. Now Compare the End of the Cold War to today, another 25 years. Not so much. (Time of war vs. Time of peace, sort of.)

The best way to think of the X-Wing T-65 to the T-70 is like an F-18C vs an F-18E. In reality they are almost completely different aircraft. The F-18E was sold as an "upgrade" to push it through congress, but they only share something like only 30% of the same parts. They really are vastly different aircraft, even though they look very similar.

Yes, I know we have the F-22 which came out at the end of the cold war and now the JSF, but the F-18E is currently the mainstay "new" aircraft of the US armed force, and a stop gap waiting for the 5th gen aircraft. The F-15s keep kicking, and the F-16 have had some huge improvements, but the best example is how the F-18C to F-18E.

It's hard to believe that between the OT and TFA, the First Order had access to technology that allowed them to build Starkiller Base, which could harness the power of a sun and destroy 5 planets at once, yet starfighter design was relegated to internal, nearly imperceptible changes.

7 hours ago, weisguy119 said:

Well, they're not using the ARC-170s or Jedi Starfighters en masse during the OT, so I'd say the ship designs advanced.

Or the Rebellion were unable to get any.

7 hours ago, Jadotch said:

Evolution vs. Revolution.

Compare WWI Fighters to WWII Fighters Hugh difference, say 25 years. A HUGE advance in fighter technology. Now Compare the End of the Cold War to today, another 25 years. Not so much. (Time of war vs. Time of peace, sort of.)

The best way to think of the X-Wing T-65 to the T-70 is like an F-18C vs an F-18E. In reality they are almost completely different aircraft. The F-18E was sold as an "upgrade" to push it through congress, but they only share something like only 30% of the same parts. They really are vastly different aircraft, even though they look very similar.

Yes, I know we have the F-22 which came out at the end of the cold war and now the JSF, but the F-18E is currently the mainstay "new" aircraft of the US armed force, and a stop gap waiting for the 5th gen aircraft. The F-15s keep kicking, and the F-16 have had some huge improvements, but the best example is how the F-18C to F-18E.

Indeed. And there are definite advancements in capability; the First Order TIE is a massively superior fighter to the original TIE/ln. Whilst it has the same basic hull form its systems are much more capable - and this is reflected in the game; it can target lock, it has shields, and it's manoeuvrability whilst clearing stress is akin to the TIE interceptor.

The B-52 mentioned above is another perfect example; the **** thing is old enough that generations of servicemen have flown on them. Not necessarily the same specific aircraft, and with vastly different missions and capabilities, but still recognisably a Buff.

The A-wing is a nice one to pick for similar reasons; thanks to Rebels, we know the A-wing, or something close enough to use the name, was the first fighter the Phoenix group had, years pre-A New Hope. The idea that it's a good enough basic design that a version XXII/Mod B/Type II or whatever iteration they're on to is still in service is kind of satisfying.

The Y-wing, by comparison....I'd be surprised to see; the whole point of the 'missing hull plating' in A New Hope was that the things were supposed to be hangar queens and the alliance techs had gotten sick of refitting it.

The B-wing - well, if the resistance transport is made in part from cobbling together bits from mkII B-wings, that in turn implies the existence of a MkII B-wing.

The resistance bomber doesn't appear to be a B-wing replacement; if anything, it's the 'new canon' version of the K-wing - a really heavy multi-crew bomber. Since we don't know what's happened to capital ship designs over the years, it may have necessitated a generation of big buggers for strike craft; the only example we have is the Resurgant-class and that thing is big - twice the size of an Imperial-class, and it's been designed by First Order engineers with experience of the Galactic Civil War under no illusions that "small craft aren't a threat". If that's what ships of the line look like, you may need things the size of the resistance bomber to carry ordnance that can hurt them.

It looks like it should be a large based ship - it'd be interesting to see a "large ship only" torpedo or missile that's designed to take out large and huge ships rather than small craft.

20 hours ago, sf1raptor said:

30 years after RotJ. Not sure about the gap for ANH though.

Fair enough. Though given how old all the original cast have been made to look, that doesn't seem like enough.

for the gap between end of the Clone Wars and ANH, they seem to have waffled between Luke and Leia being 16 and 20.

56 minutes ago, BadMotivator said:

Fair enough. Though given how old all the original cast have been made to look, that doesn't seem like enough.

So.. you're saying the actual thirty years that elapsed seems to have aged them too much?

Well, Mark Hamil looks a lot younger without the beard.

On 25.7.2017 at 3:24 PM, Marxander97 said:

The scale is definitely wrong in X-Wing

For me, i don't necessarily mind such similar designs like the T-70, TIE/FO, A-Wing, etc, and if you'll allow me to launch into a word wall, i'd like to explain why.

Lets consider the gap between RotJ and TFA. The Empire had the TIE Fighter, TIE Bomber, and TIE Interceptor as mainstay craft, i.e craft that would be found on every single Star Destroyer throughout the entire Imperial Fleet. The Rebellion was a little more varied, not only because various cells of the Rebellion came from disparate locales, but because they had grown in size, and as a primarily "hit and run" doctrine-based organization, they needed a lot of different kind of craft to approach various missions. The Rebellion used X-Wings, A-Wings, B-Wings, and Y-Wings primarily, and while each typically did their own job, an interesting thing is that there is generally a bit of overlap between each ship. Most of those ships can do each others job, just usually not as well. The Empire, on the other hand, has the TIE Fighter as its one primary general use craft. It can't, however, attack heavy targets, nor compete with agile fighters like A-Wings like a TIE Interceptor can. The Empire uses its ships in clear cut roles.

Fast forward to TFA. The Resistance is like a frail shadow of the Rebellion they're trying to revive. The Rebellion created most of it's well known craft, with the exception of the Y-Wing, all on it's own. The X-Wing, A-Wing, and B-Wing are Rebellion specific craft. Meanwhile, the Resistance starts out using old, donated T-70 X-Wings. Their manpower is significantly reduced, and their equipment outdated. The only ship they have is the T-70; while a good craft by all means, the Resistance is not particularly effective in it's ability to project force due to how restricted they are in the roles the craft can perform.

The First Order didn't have so much an equipment change as much as a doctrine change. They realized that their pilots were valuable, and that the basic TIE Fighter was weak and simply wasn't good enough. The upgrades they made were simple, cheap, and effective. The TIE/SF is very clearly the FO realizing as well that a ship kitted out similar to an X-Wing in mobility, durability, and firepower, not to mention the independence of a hyperdrive that allows for force projection counts for a lot not only in a dogfight, but in overall doctrine of warfare. The changes the First Order made were incremental and based around a change in doctrine, not as a quantum leap of technology. You can also see this doctrine in play on Jakku, where we see something the Empire never did: provide close air support with it's Starfighters. This, combined with the fact that the TIE/SF exists, shows almost the opposite of what we saw in A New Hope; The First Order has craft versatility, the Resistance does not.

So what does this all have to do with visual design? Well, i think it goes without saying that having X-Wings and TIE Fighters in a movie that's supposed to reintroduce the public to Star Wars is iconically important. But aside from that, it shows a few important details: The First Order learned the smaller lessons the Empire didn't or couldn't, and were willing to adapt while preserving the iconic legacy of the TIE Fighter, which was core to the Empire that the First Order almost worship. The First Order made almost imperceptible visual changes, but the real difference runs beneath the skin. The Resistance on the other hand is trying to also play to a legacy, that of the Rebellion, and generally doing a poor job of it. The X-Wing was state of the art in ANH, and was complemented by Y-Wings as strike craft. The T-70, on the other hand, is an old, outdated craft, and is being pressed into every combat role simultaneously. Tactically, this hamstrings The Resistances ability to fight on even terms with the First Order. The Resistance has the visuals of the Rebellion with almost none of the bite behind the bark. We see this at the Battle of Starkiller Base, where it's pretty obvious that in an extended engagement, the Resistance really doesn't have much of a hope against the First Order unless they catch them by surprise, and give the FO no reinforcements past a single division of forces like at Maz's Castle. The battle was won by small, decisive victories on the ground and the superior piloting skills of Poe Dameron, not because the equipment of each side was equally matched.

Visually, I would personally say the T-70 looks the most different from it's predecessor, very clearly an evolution of the X-Wing design, and one that likely shares little to no compatible parts with the T-65. The TIE/FO visually doesn't look much different than a reskin; Yet in terms of technical capability, the TIE/FO has changed way more than it's predecessor than the T-70 did. That's kind of telling when you consider what that represents for the two factions on a deeper level. Which is why i'm kind of okay with the rather small changes, because what they represent is noticeable in the movie itself, and explained through lore and by watching with a keen eye.

Razgriz25thinf, that is a well thought out and apt interpretation that is rational and stemming from, likely, reading the fiction.

Regardless, your well thought out response and logical evaluation is nothing compared to "gaaa! the Force Awakens is nothing but a rehash! Waah!"

Well played, though, and I completely agree with your analysis. Though in both cases, using a newer version of each factions iconic craft could also be a symbolic one. The resistance, and the New Republic, choose to keep the x-wing design because it is the x-wing that blew up the Death Star. The TIE/FO, similar the First Order retreats and improves on the empire while keeping the main tenants of the ideology. The TIE is symbolic of that.

The First Order is very much in the posistion the Rebellion was, it is the underdog, until the destruction of the New Republic main fleet and leadership.

Also, when the remnant of retreated after The battle of Jakku, they likely took design plans for TIEs and the factories to produce them. It was likely more efficient to slightly modify the factories to churn out the newer TIEs than to design a new craft altogether.

On 7/23/2017 at 11:39 AM, Punning Pundit said:

I mean. The F-15 is older than Star Wars, and still in service.

****, the B-52 is older than me (I'm 58) and it's still in service.

New Info: It's the RZ-2 A-Wing

So, more speed and a better sensor package and ECM? I wonder how that will translate into the game?

And apparently, the old A-Wing was developed from the R-22 Spearhead, again, in the newcanon (introduction page - image 4 of the 7 preview images)

https://www.amazon.com/IncrediBuilds-wing-Resistances-High-Speed-Interceptor/dp/1682980952/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1507034574&sr=1-1&keywords=incredibuilds+a-wing

Basically, Spearhead chassis, new engines, new weapons. (According to Poe Dameron's Flight Log, even ROTJ-type A-Wings have a shield generator).

22 minutes ago, Lyynark said:

So, more speed and a better sensor package and ECM? I wonder how that will translate into the game?

Title. Plus makes it Resistence instead of Alliance.

part of a campaign set focusing on Sequel era stuff.

This new info is making me so hyped!! I can't wait to see these things on screen.

As far as the game is concerned I'd like them to just have some nice upgrades for a couple extra points over the original. I think the tech slot on the games existing A-wing framework would make for a much more usable ship.

Something like this; (Assuming Poe actually has his X-wing blown up, and assuming he has to fly an A-wing instead.)