We have been building squads and leaning more these days to troopers, having played the Alliance Rangers, Echo Base Troopers and Weequay, which have been great fun.

I've been reading about how the Imperial Elite Stormtroopers are a must and I'd quite excited about it.

However, I keep reading about how the captain, Kayn Somos is a bad choice, and I find it quite vexing.

I am pleased about the attachment card to IG-88, and I am looking forward to the new Vader.

Can we expect to see some adjustments to Kayn? I can see that his surges are awful. Should I employ house rules and bump up his surge damage to +2?

It would be nice if FFG can look at this guy because he is kinda imperative for the troopers to have a leader, but he's just to lame to put in the squad.

Comments appreciated.

I don't think we're going to get a Somos fix. I think they'll limit the fixes to the iconic characters. I'd guess we'll get a Chewie, Han, Boba Fett, and maybe a Royal Guard Champ. That's probably about it.

We got one already, Adv. Com system which lets him use his ability for 3 away instead of adjacent.
Unfortunately that means we are likely not going to see him fixed again.

Personally I'd love to see a fix where the only change is that friendly troopers don't block his line of sight. With Kayn, the best thing you can do is shoot, spend surge to focus troop and have the focused troop shoot.

4 hours ago, Kenseventy said:

We got one already, Adv. Com system which lets him use his ability for 3 away instead of adjacent.
Unfortunately that means we are likely not going to see him fixed again.

Personally I'd love to see a fix where the only change is that friendly troopers don't block his line of sight. With Kayn, the best thing you can do is shoot, spend surge to focus troop and have the focused troop shoot.

Along these lines, I'd love a 'Collateral Damage' ability where friendly figures don't block line of sight (or friendly troopers), but they take damage or have a chance at taking damage. Makes him feel brutal and uncaring, which seems to fit the character that FFG were going for. He rolls some serious sniper's dice, though could, as stated above, do with a +2dmg surge.

Just bc we got Advanced Comm as a potential "fix" doesnt mean he wont get touched later. Advanced Comm was just a quick resolution for all of those "within 1 space" now bumped to "within 3 spaces" share abilities.

The main prob with Kayn is his cost. I think at 5 cost (+1 advanced comm so 6 in total) he wouldnt need any other fixes/adjustments. I think hed be pretty cool at 6 pts. And might actually help some Trooper builds. Heck, with Riot Troopers on the horizon, might actually been pretty good. Keep them up front and Kayn behind them a space or two unless they have Guardian.

Same goes with most early sets. Its not that theyre bad, theyre just over priced (or under health cost). Id love for them to fix all the hero skirmish cards to basically be 2-3 pts less on each. If they did, theyd be amazingly awesome and there would be so many cool combinations to choose from.

~D

I do hope we get many Skirmish Upgrades for existing IA assets, though I understand that Kayn might be a lower priority than more iconic figures like Darth Vader, AT-STs, Stormtroopers, etc. For fun, I've taken several stabs at Skirmish Upgrade fixes -- my current Google doc is available for viewing .

Here's what I've got for Kayn currently:

Quote

Unique Elite Skirmish Attachment Card: Squad Leader (Kayn Somos only)

Cost: -2

Upgraded Coms: Where your abilities would normally affect adjacent figures, they now affect figures within 3 spaces of you.

Squad Defense: When defending, if you are adjacent to a friendly Trooper, add +1 EVADE to your defense results.

I could understand an argument for this card to cost -3 instead of -2.

From a user-friendly perspective, I would have to imagine that any "fixes" would be applied to all the content in the Core box before branching out.

Besides Han/Chewie/Vader, who are all implied/confirmed for updates in Heart of the Empire, the Core box is the one SKU that Skirmish players would be most likely to own, so it makes sense to focus efforts there.

Royal Guard Champion and General Weiss are still great concepts for characters that just fall behind the curve in Skirmish list building, so if anything happens with any other fixes, they would be logical choices.

My gut tells me that with the content of Heart, Brawlers and Vehicles will see some Command cards tossed in that will by extension make those traits better.

As for Kayn, he comes from the Twin Shadows wave, and is himself an extra pack that would not necessarily be in the hands of most players who come to the game for the Skirmish side. I've kept up with all the releases, and I imagine that many do, but for the budget-conscious, I would recommend against picking him up.

Now with all that said, I would love if he got a tweak to put him on the table, but I'd love all the behind-the-curve characters to have a place on the table for the sake of diversity.

I've seen Kayn used to some effect in tournaments before, but he just falls short of sticking the landing in terms of efficiency, which is a shame because he's so thematic for an all-Stormtrooper list, and it would look great on the tabletop.

I feel like Captain Terro quietly assumed that mantle.

I'd imagine that the trooper leaders (Weiss, Somos, Sorin, Blaise, Terro) would be one of the lowest priorities for fixes, really.

They simply aren't iconic. They're cool for having some flexibility with villains in campaign, but I think they represent a time when the game was planned to be more heavily a campaign thing and skirmish was just a side dish. These days, it looks like they may no longer even exist at all (no trooper leader in HotE, at least- first expansion where that's the case).

I'd like to see a Somos fix that would put him on par with the new Rebel Leader/Trooper coming out: Ko-Tun Feralo. Anything that they could do to Kayn Somos to balance him against his new Rebel equivalent would be great! Side by side, he just doesn't compare right now.

37 minutes ago, Smashotron said:

I'd like to see a Somos fix that would put him on par with the new Rebel Leader/Trooper coming out: Ko-Tun Feralo. Anything that they could do to Kayn Somos to balance him against his new Rebel equivalent would be great! Side by side, he just doesn't compare right now.

Bear in mind that Kayn has 3 more health, and a surge for a pierce. Also he had 3 attacks per activation (himself and two adjacent troopers) one of which will be focused. Ko-Tun's abilities are excessively situational

18 minutes ago, neosmagus said:

Bear in mind that Kayn has 3 more health, and a surge for a pierce. Also he had 3 attacks per activation (himself and two adjacent troopers) one of which will be focused. Ko-Tun's abilities are excessively situational

Kayn Somos only affects Troopers and only adjacent, unless a fix card includes the Adv. Comms text. Ko-Tun has the benefit of being a Trooper and affect any friendly figure. She is also a Professional, which is an ability I would hope Kayn Somos receives with a fix; if not the more thematic Squad Training, or even Squad Training within 3 spaces.

Ko-Tun also has a stronger ratio of Health to Points over Kayn Somos.

5 minutes ago, Smashotron said:

Kayn Somos only affects Troopers and only adjacent, unless a fix card includes the Adv. Comms text. Ko-Tun has the benefit of being a Trooper and affect any friendly figure. She is also a Professional, which is an ability I would hope Kayn Somos receives with a fix; if not the more thematic Squad Training, or even Squad Training within 3 spaces.

Ko-Tun also has a stronger ratio of Health to Points over Kayn Somos.

Aren't like three quarters of the Imperial units troopers? Lol

But yes, he should have had professional. But otherwise, in comparison, I don't see too much issues. And adv com does let him be further away from his troopers.

1 hour ago, neosmagus said:

Ko-Tun's abilities are excessively situational

Except for the -Dodge, I'd actually say they're less situational? Arms Distribution is always good if you have a figure within 3 spaces who doesn't already have 2 power tokens, and Professional is generally quite good, especially when rolling 3 dice.

I'd say the only issue with Kayn, based on this comparison, is that his cost is just a bit too high. Put him down to 8 and he compares quite well with Ko-Tun. Though it remains to be seen how good she is; personally I would guess that she's not quite good enough (though the new sniper-favoring map, and maybe other changes from HotE, could certainly change that).

Honestly, the thing Somos needs the most is better imperial Troopers. Imagine him standing back and commanding/focusing an Imperial version of the alliance Rangers to attack from long range. Terro was a step on the right direction, but Somos needs support to get the most out of Firing Squad.

2 hours ago, Stompburger said:

I'd say the only issue with Kayn, based on this comparison, is that his cost is just a bit too high. Put him down to 8 and he compares quite well with Ko-Tun. Though it remains to be seen how good she is; personally I would guess that she's not quite good enough (though the new sniper-favoring map, and maybe other changes from HotE, could certainly change that)

8 cost seems reasonable, and advanced comms is a must. At 9 points with AC I feel as though he fits quite well in a group.

Jet Troopers and Riot Troopers might be the sweet spot combined with Dewback Rider.

9 pts - Adjusted Kayn with AC

10 pts - 2x Dewback Rider

7 pts - eJet Trooper

9 pts - eStormtrooper

4 pts - 2x Officer

1 pt - Zillo Technique

Depending on cost, switch out a Dewback or both officers for Riot Troopers? Maybe abandon eStormtrooper for another eJet Trooper and only get rid of 1 officer for Riot Troopers?

Really interested in those riot troopers and what their shield is going to do.

18 hours ago, Quigman said:

8 cost seems reasonable, and advanced comms is a must. At 9 points with AC I feel as though he fits quite well in a group.

9 pts - Adjusted Kayn with AC

If they fix Somos with a Skirmish Upgrade, we won't be able to attach Adv. Comms as well. Here's hoping they include the rules for Adv. Comms on his fix.

That's true.

Probably have to make a diy custom card for him lowering his cost.

He can join my ranks of customized Jyn, Diala, Ghaarkan, Saska, Biv, etc.

2 hours ago, Smashotron said:

If they fix Somos with a Skirmish Upgrade, we won't be able to attach Adv. Comms as well. Here's hoping they include the rules for Adv. Comms on his fix.

True- though it might be cool to have some characters who don't have dominant builds. That could be interesting.

On 7/24/2017 at 1:34 PM, neosmagus said:

Bear in mind that Kayn has 3 more health, and a surge for a pierce. Also he had 3 attacks per activation (himself and two adjacent troopers) one of which will be focused. Ko-Tun's abilities are excessively situational

This comparison makes me think that Kayn is not half bad!

I don't think that he is, really.

I just think that as a whole, the Empire as a faction is still having some issues. Maybe the riot troopers will help- they certainly seem like they'll add some variety to trooper lists.

Kayn is not half bad, but the problem is that he's not half good either. His adjacency requirement makes him all the more squishy. While you can mitigate with Advanced Com Systems, you're just increasing the price of poor Kayn.

Where Kayn shines is when you can pair him with troopers for those free attacks. Kayn can offer an alpha-strike option, but most of his trooper units aren't going to last past the initial engagement. The problem is also the investment into more units to make Kayn viable. If you pair him with a squad of Stormtroopers, you're talking about 16 deployment points to put out damage that is similar to Captain Terro who's less than half the cost.

Let's use simple comparisons we can do with the IA Calculator ( http://mattyellen.github.io/imperial-assault-calculator/) .

Here is Captain Terro's (since people have been using him as a comparison) damage if you include 2 damage from Flamethrower against 1 black die:

Here is Kayn Somos' damage with a pair of standard Storm Troopers all throwing against 1 black die for each attack (I didn't include one trooper being focused since that's not guaranteed, but it's a possibility):

CT and KS both are all but guaranteed to do 4 damage, and highly likely to do 6 damage. KS has a much higher damage ceiling, but the odds are incredibly low to do 11 damage (forget about 14) in 3 attacks.

So in general, KS paired with a pair of regular Stormtroopers will put out similar damage to CT, but at over twice the price.

Now let's look at a best case scenario, KS paired with CT and 1 elite E-Web against a single black die for each attack (again, neither unit gets focused):

Now we're talking damage! Nearly guaranteed to do 8 damage and highly likely to do 11 with a ceiling of 21 (realistically a ceiling of 17). Although I see more cons to this grouping than pros. The cost for this is 25 deployment points, the E-Web is slow and bulky to get anywhere and both CT and E-Web need to attack the same target, so you better hope your opponent brought the Rancor in range.

The good parts of this is that you still get CT in your army, and if you have other troopers KS can command them as well.

Looking at this data, there's an argument to be made that KS won't see a revision, although I'm of the mindset that he needs to be costed down, adjacency requirements lifted and/or speed increased.

Agreed that Terro is amazing. Whenever I kill him, I'm shocked when I'm reminded that he's only 7 pts! So, yes comparing Somos to Terro is a little different.

He does not need a revision, just a different way of looking at him.

Adding advanced Comms is the way to go.

I run him with a trooper list.

Kayn

Elite Hvy troopers

and some different mixes of regular troopers and etroopers.

Now what I do is fire team

You take one group of storm troopers. Give them one of the Hvy troopers and Kayn.

The temptation is to fire Kayn so you get that focus and that is possible and more possible with AC, but its not always something I try to do.

His real worth is with Firing squad. Use the trooper group to grab position. They can move and fire in their activation. Then you move up the hvy and if you cant get him into position and fire its okay cause your next activation is to move Kayn up and fire the hvy and one of the troopers. Thats a lot of fire coming out of this group. He has enough health that he will last to the end game and be able to deal damage to who ever the other guy has left around. I always include him in a trooper list, but I will add that my group does not play skirmish in the tournament format. We tend to get 6 or 8 turns in as we do not set a time limit. I can see how he is not as liked in the short term game as his ability takes some time to set up and get mileage out of.

On July 24, 2017 at 9:20 AM, subtrendy2 said:

I'd imagine that the trooper leaders (Weiss, Somos, Sorin, Blaise, Terro) would be one of the lowest priorities for fixes, really.

They simply aren't iconic. They're cool for having some flexibility with villains in campaign, but I think they represent a time when the game was planned to be more heavily a campaign thing and skirmish was just a side dish. These days, it looks like they may no longer even exist at all (no trooper leader in HotE, at least- first expansion where that's the case).

I'd imagine any tinkering with Blaise and Terro would be even more low priority, since they work perfectly fine as is, with no upgrades needed.

Of the others you mentioned, Sorin is also closer to the mark, as he's actually playable on the board in terms of efficiency when you give him Comms and droids/vehicles to play with.

Weiss and Kayn just cost too much for what you get. With Weiss, you can order people around from anywhere, but are you really giving up an action for that when you need to keep him on the move, and using his custom 3 dice attack every round possible to ensure you keep up with the damage going back and forth?

I'll grant that Weiss and the AT-ST get leaps and bounds more tanky with Zillo but that one attack still won't cut it for 16pts. He needs something similar to IG-88 where he gets Assault to attack twice a round, and then that line of text that gives him a couple of movement points so you can reposition and let the lasers fly.

I feel like Weiss is a great design for a Final Boss Monster, and in the campaign it's fine because you're just given him essentially for free to deploy when instructed. His shortfalls relating to cost don't matter as much at that point and you can enjoy his walking death machine antics.

In Skirmish, he just doesn't seem effective, simply because of how much space he takes up, leaving some slim options.

Even the AT-ST gets a built in Targeting Computer.

On 7/24/2017 at 5:58 PM, Fightwookies said:

Honestly, the thing Somos needs the most is better imperial Troopers. Imagine him standing back and commanding/focusing an Imperial version of the alliance Rangers to attack from long range. Terro was a step on the right direction, but Somos needs support to get the most out of Firing Squad.

Maybe we'll get that if they ever decide to finally put out scout troopers.

On another note, the continued attempt to nullify the dodge pip is really starting to ruin the game for me. I know there are some die-hard white dice whiners out there who go into apoplectic fits whenever the X shows up, but it is part of the mechanics of the game, and constantly nullifying it makes white dice characters less playable.