See @Jamie P 's 2nd place regionals list. It had an MC80a with RBDs and ECMS, using it as a living shield to cover his Yavaris and two flotillas. A fighter wing was commanded by it, and the MC80a helped a lot with tossing broadsides at target ships, allowing squadrons commanded by the Yavaris to finsih it off.

Actual timeline, can you see where you get lost? Its easy when you dont follow the thread.

21 hours ago, SkyCake said:

Agree 100% to get the most out of this ship, and Ackbar, you need to slash...

Always be slashing !!!

5 hours ago, xerpo said:

With a big base and that speed most of the attemts of slashing, if playing against an experienced player, will end up in a catastrophic dead end blocked on your front and down to ashes in two turns, even with a supertanky build (again, of course, from my own personal experience) Its way more effective, cheaper and safest Ackbar-slashing with AFKM for the matter. And you will still have the choice on firing twice from the same hull if the opponent reacted smart enough to avoid the slash . Wich can be easily avoided at first place with a propper tight deployment. The slash sounds good in the books, not so good on the tabletop.

1 hour ago, Ginkapo said:

Is that with or without engine techs?

55 minutes ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

^ This.

A nav-ing MC80 with Engine Techs has just as many clicks as a CR90. It's tough to get in front of without a quick small base. If a small base gets in front of you ram it and ET another ram.

21 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Yup, if an AvengerBT with speed 3 and better clicks than you gets in your front arc I'll be glad to see how you ram it. Twice. For the engine techs please read above.

16 minutes ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

An Avenger with speed 3 doesn't have better clicks than an ET. The ET MC80 is actually more maneuverable unless the ISD is nav-ing then they are equal. All things considered if two ships are traveling the same speed with the same maneuverability it should be easier to present a broadside for the MC80 than have an ISD force the front to front engagement when the MC80 is doing everything in its power to avoid it. Otherwise, the engine techs move is the most important before engagement actually begins. You can see the angles of attack and plan accordingly to avoid the front to front. the only one that should be incredibly hard to avoid is a suicide small ship, hence the ET ramming attack should do a decent job of taking it out.

-Edit- Is was wrong. A Nav-ing ET MC80 actually has one more click than a Nav-ing ISD.

7 minutes ago, xerpo said:

Of course I never doubted that, but then you are not slashing dont you? Wich was the matter of all this. Then you are showing your broadside to him, and the other broadside to your depoyment area. And you only have one shot from that broadside.

How is that its easier to avoid collision with a small base ship than with a large base ship?
Ofc ABT is using Navs, its all he should be doing to tap you in place.

4 minutes ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

I wasn't talking about slashing . Just on the general use of the ET to avoid being trapped. It actually harder to avoid a small based ship because they are usually faster and more maneuverable. ABT is not. It's actually less maneuverable.

1 minute ago, xerpo said:

Actual timeline, can you see where you get lost? Its easy when you don't follow the thread.

My point is was talking about using the ET to avoid getting trapped. Threads tend to evolve but it's decent to point out those trying out the MC80 "don't slash if you are gonna set up an ISD in your front arc"

Ok.

An MC80 with engine techs has the shields and hull to through the middle of a small ship swarm Ackbar slashing.

Against an ISD that deployed on a collision course with the MC80, the MC80 will only get one shot. An Assault frigate would only get one shot. Indeed most ships will only get one shot and definetely no double Ackbar boosted.

Against an ISD that deployed badly the MC80 has the shields and hull to go Ackbar Slashing.

Is this about where we are?

15 minutes ago, Ginkapo said:

Ok.

An MC80 with engine techs has the shields and hull to through the middle of a small ship swarm Ackbar slashing.

Against an ISD that deployed on a collision course with the MC80, the MC80 will only get one shot. An Assault frigate would only get one shot. Indeed most ships will only get one shot and definetely no double Ackbar boosted.

Against an ISD that deployed badly the MC80 has the shields and hull to go Ackbar Slashing.

Is this about where we are?

Punch your opponent in the kidneys?

On 7/23/2017 at 1:11 AM, Vergilius said:

I wonder if it was just the games I happened to play immediately after the wave dropped, but it ended up being against VSDs who were carrying that upgrade and both of us were going speed-1 to avoid giving the extra die to the other.

But against certain lists that must come at the MC80, ouch.

In that scenario, the MC80 has the advantage due to Engine Techs. You can go speed two while going speed one, in which case you're basically paying zero points (5 for QBTs, minus 5 for opponent's wasted QBTs) for Tractor Beams.

Unless they've got Konstantine, in which case...

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Against an ISD that deployed on a collision course with the MC80, the MC80 will only get one shot.

The mc80 is going to to be stuck and take ALL the shots till death because you cannot move over an ISD with speed 2. ET is not helping either, just to crash twice.

3 minutes ago, xerpo said:

The mc80 is going to to be stuck and take ALL the shots till death because you cannot move over an ISD with speed 2. ET is not helping either, just to crash twice.

If they're Crashing Nose-to-Nose, then Damage output is similar on both sides...

The MC80 gets to Double -Arc (Side and Nose) but the nose on the ISD is large enough its only getting one shot... The numbers of dice end up being roughly comparable, but the ISD gets the edge in quality of dice, generally speaking...

Unless its a -II, then they're pretty even, all told.

6 minutes ago, Drasnighta said:

If they're Crashing Nose-to-Nose, then Damage output is similar on both sides...

The MC80 gets to Double -Arc (Side and Nose) but the nose on the ISD is large enough its only getting one shot... The numbers of dice end up being roughly comparable, but the ISD gets the edge in quality of dice, generally speaking...

Unless its a -II, then they're pretty even, all told.

You forgot the crash factor and the base hull difference.

2 minutes ago, xerpo said:

You forgot the crash factor and the base hull difference.

No, I didn't.

Its just immaterial to "Damage Output", which is the comparison I was making.

Sure, the ISD will last longer. That's why its more expensive.

23 minutes ago, xerpo said:

The mc80 is going to to be stuck and take ALL the shots till death because you cannot move over an ISD with speed 2. ET is not helping either, just to crash twice.

What? You already agreed that if an ISD is heading straight for an MC80 then the MC80 can dodge but will then be limited to broadsiding on the battle. Which is true. It doesnt have to keep going head on.

And if it does, then it still carries its weight against the ISD, and likely has better friends in the CR90s to call on anyway. ISD front arcs dont make MC80s evaporate in the same way as other ships evaporate.

1 minute ago, Ginkapo said:

What? You already agreed that if an ISD is heading straight for an MC80 then the MC80 can dodge but will then be limited to broadsiding on the battle. Which is true. It doesnt have to keep going head on.

And if it does, then it still carries its weight against the ISD, and likely has better friends in the CR90s to call on anyway. ISD front arcs dont make MC80s evaporate in the same way as other ships evaporate.

Yes I understood wrong your post sorry. Let me fix.

2 hours ago, Ginkapo said:

Ok.

An MC80 with engine techs has the shields and hull to through the middle of a small ship swarm Ackbar slashing.

Against an ISD that deployed on a collision course with the MC80, the MC80 will only get one shot. An Assault frigate would only get one shot . Indeed most ships will only get one shot and definetely no double Ackbar boosted.

Against an ISD that deployed badly the MC80 has the shields and hull to go Ackbar Slashing.

Is this about where we are?

An assault frigate could actually get along with the slash because of the medium size base and the straight speed 3. So AFK CAN slash more easily for a lower cost and a similar damage output.

If by the second turn your opponent is manuvering so you realize that the slash is going to be too risky or just impossible you can dodge with the MC80 as well as with the AFKM showing only one broadside, with the difference that an AFKM equipped with GT is letting you shoot the ISD AND doing flak or shooting another ship in range, say, a flotilla, a raider or whatever. Odds still favour AFKM over MC80.

1 hour ago, xerpo said:

Odds still favour AFKM over MC80.

Most of the tourney data says otherwise. I think we are falling into the early meta trap that "GT does a great ship make." GT is good but it's not the end all be all of making a ship decent or great.

Doom pickle is one of the best ships in the game. Won a store champ just before the new wave dropped with this:

1 • MC80 Assault Cruiser - Admiral Ackbar - Walex Blissex - Engine Techs - Reinforced Blast Doors - Electronic Countermeasures - Leading Shots - XI7 Turbolasers - Defiance (192)
2 • CR90 Corellian Corvette A - Projection Experts - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits - Jaina's Light (59)
3 • CR90 Corellian Corvette A - Turbolaser Reroute Circuits (51)
4 • GR-75 Medium Transports - Comms Net (20)
5 • GR-75 Medium Transports - Comms Net (20)
6 • VCX-100 Freighter (15)
7 • VCX-100 Freighter (15)
8 • Shara Bey A-wing Squadron (17)
9 • Objectives - Most Wanted - Fire Lanes - Intel Sweep (0)

Faced two fighter heavy lists and an avenger pulse tap. Never lost Defiance(though she was limping on with 1 hull in the second game). Tankier than an Interdictor and hits harder than(some) ISDs. Long range is brutal 6r plus a blue to reroll if needed and XI7 locks down the redirects almost every ship has. Engine techs is pretty necessary imo.

18 hours ago, ImpStarDeuces said:

Most of the tourney data says otherwise. I think we are falling into the early meta trap that "GT does a great ship make." GT is good but it's not the end all be all of making a ship decent or great.

Of course is not all, is just another thing, along with the points, the speed and the bare difference in durability and firepower.

Just now, xerpo said:

Of course is not all, is just another thing, along with the points, the speed and the bare difference in durability and firepower.

Just to come at it from a different tack, most of your complaints against the ET MC80 also apply to the AF MKII. It's the same speed, less maneuverable, has crap front firepower, less durable, is expensive against the more efficient CR90...

When I'm trying to get rookies into the game I always try to explain that Armada is nice game because it's actually really hard to boil down things to straight numbers. So much comes to how opponent maneuver, chosen upgrades, and synergies that it's almost basically impossible to straight call something a better ship. Generally the sentence has to be "it's a better ship for this fleet" which is a huge difference. Taking the example farther, compare a Home One ET MC80 and a GT AF MKII in a TRC90 swarm. I think a lot of people are willing to pay more for the Home One.

When people discuss games on forum we tend to talk in absolutes but game experience, especially in Armada, tends to show otherwise. Take how the meta has evolved. People said pure ship lists were the way to go in wave 1 and 2 and then squadron lists took worlds. More recently everyone agreed that MC80's were crap and then they went on a tear in the regional champs.

There was a doom pickle list that was in the top 4 at worlds this year too. I recently started flying a similar list and have been having good success with it. Quad Battery Turrets is great with ET, you can be at speed one and doing speed two maneuvers and still get that extra blue die. Great for Leading Shots on those red die at long range.

1 hour ago, themightyhedgehog said:

There was a doom pickle list that was in the top 4 at worlds this year too. I recently started flying a similar list and have been having good success with it. Quad Battery Turrets is great with ET, you can be at speed one and doing speed two maneuvers and still get that extra blue die. Great for Leading Shots on those red die at long range.

QBTs is a great new upgrade. It helps out so much in so many situations having that long range blue. I think this wave had more fantastic upgrades than any before it. I hope FFG continues the trend of releasing upgrades that give you new ways to use under utilized older ships.

7 hours ago, Megatronrex said:

QBTs is a great new upgrade. It helps out so much in so many situations having that long range blue. I think this wave had more fantastic upgrades than any before it. I hope FFG continues the trend of releasing upgrades that give you new ways to use under utilized older ships.

And don't forget that it works in all arcs. I love the look of surprise on an opponents face when they think they've zoomed their small ship to safety past my ISD's front arc, only to unload 5+1 (cf) dice into them. That's a Vic's front arc!

I have no idea how I missed this thread first time round, particularly as Gink tagged me in it.

I got third in the Euro Swiss with an MC80 list which is the one people are referring to with a mix of awe and green eyed bitter jealousy earlier in the thread. The list was:

MC80A - Ackbar, Defiance, Raymus Antilles, engine techs, reinforced blast doors, electronic counter measures, leading shots and enhanced armourment.

5 CR90b's with no upgrades other than the Ackbar dice.

No squads, because squads are for wusses who can't fly capital ships properly

I think the objectives were contested outpost, advanced gunnery and dangerous territory.

It worked incredibly well, and was great fun to play. The key is, as noted above to use engine techs to the max in order to make your MC80 and absolute pain in the backside while the CR90's fly around being equally annoying. Slashing with Ackbar is all well and good but you are better just using one arc and getting into a good position than slashing and ending up in a bad position. The CR90's also can pull off a pretty mean slash which people won't expect (I took out jaina's light and bright hope in one activation with a naked CR90b in one game).

A key is being willing to sacrifice either CR90s or the MC80 depending on the match up and what works best. CR90bs are absolutely great at blocking things, particularly ISDs and other MC80s which mean that you can then manouver the MC80 to the best point you can to then blow up whatever you are attacking while it flounders on a string of sacrificial corvettes (Raddus had nothing on me in terms of callous use of corvettes).

In terms of changes I'd make, I'd probably take most wanted instead of advanced gunnery as advanced gunnery is actually a trap for the MC80. Everyone ignored it except a nasty yavaris/B wing/MSU list and in that game I ended up putting advanced gunnery on a CR90 as I couldn't risk the MC80 going down (It did). Most wanted would make it much easier to take down ISDs and not lose me much with a CR90 flying off to the edge out of danger.

I'm not sure about QBTs, they look like a cheaper way of getting extra dice than enhanced armourment, which is very good, the leading shots aspect is just another bonus. My concern however is that most of the things you will get the bonus against you will already likely be one shotting with an Ackbar broadside. (This MC80 eats demolisher for breakfast). The things you need the extra dice for are big ships which are generally going at the same speed as you or slower so no bonus at all there. I'd actually take XI7s instead as redirects let large ships tank your megashots, and as long as the target has two shields adjacent then you get more mileage out of limiting redirects than you do from QBTs other than the potential for leading shots. With Antilles however you can store up a concentrate fire token which can give a reasonable effect at long range and at medium/close you have blue dice anyway. Worst case you can add a blue dice with defiance just to re-roll a crock of rubbish red dice, rather than a tasty black dice.

I can anticipate that you are unlikely to have 5 CR90s, however hammerheads can probably do something reasonable in the place of some of them

The MC80a is awesome.

On 8/12/2017 at 5:09 AM, Dr alex said:

5 CR90b's with no upgrades other than the Ackbar dice.

No squads, because squads are for wusses who can't fly capital ships properly

Not sure what to say to someone who considers CR90-Bs "capital ships".

On 14/08/2017 at 8:46 PM, Democratus said:

Not sure what to say to someone who considers CR90-Bs "capital ships".

Hey, they are awesome, Queens of the Outer Fringe

I'm seeing a specific archetype start to pop up since the nerf and wave 6. Previously, AFmk2/Pelta, Yavaris, 2 flotillas was a dominant archetype (in NA). Now the AFmk2 is dropped for an MC80A or MC80C.

I built one (MC80A/Yarvaris/2xFlotilla) and took it to Appleton store champ, did well except for MattAntilles outplaying me with an Ackbar list. I went to the Milwaukee store champ where the winning fleet was Yavaris/MC80C/2xFlotilla. One of the local guys is gearing up for the Madison, WI store champs with similar.

MC80A and MC80C do just fine even without engine techs.