6 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

This is why I think everyone is over-interpreting the rules. If you couldn't use the EM tokens, there is no way you could cover the field with mines.

You can fit 3 double cluster mine punishers in a list... that's without EM, try a mirror match. You have 12 clustermines with mapper on both sides... it's clearly possible to cover the field with mines without EM

mapper triggers once, you get to chose any number of your equipped upgrade cards once.. EM doesn't give you 4 cards. So chose 2. it replaces the discard, you get to drop tokens instead. Now you still have two equipped upgrade cards, but your opportunity to resolve MM has passed. You can't chose to do it again.

Well now that we've mostly all agreed, the FAQ will likely rule the opposite way

I'd like to know where this "ban" occurred.

3 hours ago, HammerGibbens said:

Well now that we've mostly all agreed, the FAQ will likely rule the opposite way

Yep. We have no idea how FFG will FAQ this. RAI (assuming intent) or RAW.

3 hours ago, HammerGibbens said:

Well now that we've mostly all agreed, the FAQ will likely rule the opposite way

Yes, yessssss. You and your pitiful Rebel friends are walking into a trap. I have deployed and entire legion of my finest FAQtroopers. Soon you will feel the true power of the Dark Side. . .

If I was to place a bet on how the minefield mapper ruling would go, I would put money on it allowing the tokens and the cards, because that's FFG.

10 minutes ago, Kdubb said:

If I was to place a bet on how the minefield mapper ruling would go, I would put money on it allowing the tokens and the cards, because that's FFG.

I only agreed to RAW because I want RAI. Reverse psychology in action.

FFG is cracking down on places not following the rules. By all means offer up the names of the places that are screwing the players experience with bans.

Anybody in here actually tried out Minefield Mapper? I haven't yet, neither with or without tokens. I'm of the opinion that when you have a ship with bombs and tokens, it would be silly to place all the bombs, because the ship is probably only a Punisher and would suck without any bombs at all...

32 minutes ago, haslo said:

Anybody in here actually tried out Minefield Mapper? I haven't yet, neither with or without tokens. I'm of the opinion that when you have a ship with bombs and tokens, it would be silly to place all the bombs, because the ship is probably only a Punisher and would suck without any bombs at all...

Yeah. That's the irony in all of this! Outside of some really weird corner cases I'm not sure how effective it will be. In general, when you leave a mine on the field without it detonating, that's a bad thing.

2 hours ago, haslo said:

Anybody in here actually tried out Minefield Mapper? I haven't yet, neither with or without tokens. I'm of the opinion that when you have a ship with bombs and tokens, it would be silly to place all the bombs, because the ship is probably only a Punisher and would suck without any bombs at all...

First time today. Our group currently interprets its use the opposite to what most say on here so with my Punisher I could deploy 2 proximity mines and 2 cluster mines. First opponent never came across it and was flummoxed and although none damaged him (emy Punisher flew over one ) he was all out of place whereas Ryad and Kestal got prime positioning and I won. Second player had flown against it, deployed to prevent optimal bomb layout, wasn't bothered by them and wiped me off the table.

3 hours ago, haslo said:

Anybody in here actually tried out Minefield Mapper? I haven't yet, neither with or without tokens. I'm of the opinion that when you have a ship with bombs and tokens, it would be silly to place all the bombs, because the ship is probably only a Punisher and would suck without any bombs at all...

I was going to next time I played. My goal was 2 Punishers and 8 mines. Epic play. We 'll try it broken and report back.

I could see a possibility of running scum nym with minefield mapper, then and a couple cluster bombs and hiding behind the mines for free evades, but that's a lot of points

4 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:

Yeah. That's the irony in all of this! Outside of some really weird corner cases I'm not sure how effective it will be. In general, when you leave a mine on the field without it detonating, that's a bad thing.

Exactly this, they just become another obstacle to avoid.

when they are dropped in your face and you can't avoid them, that's when they are gold.

played against a great Punisher player today with Deathrain and I would have been happy for him just to litter the play area to start with.

6 hours ago, haslo said:

Anybody in here actually tried out Minefield Mapper? I haven't yet, neither with or without tokens. I'm of the opinion that when you have a ship with bombs and tokens, it would be silly to place all the bombs, because the ship is probably only a Punisher and would suck without any bombs at all...

I have, I played against it once and twice with. Both times I played it with a Punisher and two Connor Nets with EM (using the rule that I could only deploy two) with a Kestal TLT and Quickdraw and found that it made the game much more interesting that I expected.

You can use it to try to force an approach from your opponent and you're almost certain to disrupt their placement plans when they know it's there.

Incidentally I actually enjoyed keeping a couple of mines on the ship - if you can 'encourage' a certain flight path from your opponent then you can plan much easier where you want to drop them for full effect later to keep ship a thorn in their side. This isn't to say that I expect to see them at Worlds or anything, but it does make for an interesting and fun game for both players.

I'll say this at least: it's an upgrade that will 100% affect the game you're about to play. It may not help you actually win the bloody thing, but I think you'll have fun trying.

It's going to add another dimension to the game. We've used rocks and debris fields as choke points to curtail certain movements on the board. Some players will ignore the obstacles. Afterall it's only a 12.5% chance of damage in debris fields, 50% with rocks and with Advanced Sensors you still get your action.

Mines are a different beast. Multiple dice rolls with Cluster and Proximity Mines is more of a threat. Being able to close off the board edges with CMs and the spaces between obstacles with the large Prox Mine and Conner Net tokens further restricts movement. Not a bad tactic.

The only thing that I find a little troubling is the combination of Minefield Mapping and Fortressing. I can see where one player could deploy all his bombs (if FFG rules it this way) and hunkers down behind it, forcing the other player to suffer the consequences of an assault. This would be a definite NPE.

7 hours ago, Stoneface said:

The only thing that I find a little troubling is the combination of Minefield Mapping and Fortressing. I can see where one player could deploy all his bombs (if FFG rules it this way) and hunkers down behind it, forcing the other player to suffer the consequences of an assault. This would be a definite NPE.

Maybe, but it probably wouldn't win games. Ships that allow that generally have low primary attack values, leading to the fortressing player having fewer dice in the final salvo if it goes there - so they'd eventually have to move out of their fortress.

On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 10:59 PM, Kdubb said:

If I was to place a bet on how the minefield mapper ruling would go, I would put money on it allowing the tokens and the cards, because that's FFG.

There are some cards that FFG has chosen to interpret the RAI way instead of RAW. Or they just pick and choose which way they want a card to work.

RAW Boba Fett crew should be able to ignore EM tokens and just force a card discard. The EM tokens only work when YOU are discarding them, but the ship with Boba Fett is discarding them so you should be able to discard a torp under an EM token or discard EM under its own EM token and make the tokens useless.

Inquisitor seems to arbitrarily be able to treat an attack as range 1 in order to ignore Autothrusters, but magically it doesn't trigger Concord Dawn Protectorate.

I've since changed my mind on this issue thanks to Majorjuggler. It's only 2 of the bombs, not all 4 from MM and that's how it would work RAW. But maybe FFG feels the other way.

Look at the convoluted way that TLT simultaneously counts as 2 attacks, but is treated as one attack.

So IDK. I don't think that the 12 sets of Cluster Mines shenanigans would be OP. If you spread out your ships it would get very hard to be surrounded by Cluster Mines, and taking 4-ish cluster "minelet" rolls isn't enough to severely cripple most modern lists such that 3 Punishers with Unguided Rockets suddenly have a massive advantage. Forcing Cluster Mines with MM and the "all 4 bombs" interpretation at best evens the playing field for the Punishers.

6 hours ago, haslo said:

Maybe, but it probably wouldn't win games. Ships that allow that generally have low primary attack values, leading to the fortressing player having fewer dice in the final salvo if it goes there - so they'd eventually have to move out of their fortress.

The lists that triple Punishers could beat in a final salvo tend to be 2 ship lists, or lists with fancy 2 attack die ships that end up having de facto 3-4 dice "primaries" like Dash or Dengar or Quickdraw.

As far as I'm concerned, it would be an NPE to have to play against that obnoxious BS with 3 Punishers. Anyone flying a list like that that has an NPE against 3 Punishers is getting a taste of their own medicine. Good, suffer.

22 hours ago, MajorJuggler said:

Yeah. That's the irony in all of this! Outside of some really weird corner cases I'm not sure how effective it will be. In general, when you leave a mine on the field without it detonating, that's a bad thing.

I believe the theory is "well...when are you ever going to have a punisher/SCURRG survive long enough to drop four ACTION bombs?"

On 7/21/2017 at 5:03 PM, Darth Meanie said:

It does not prevent me from discarding a card per se. It says: if the subject of the action is a card, you can instead use a token. That is NOT the same as not discarding a card.

Ergo, if the object of the action is a card, but a token can also be the object of that action, then the token and the card are equivalent. It does not prevent anything; it redirects the action.

Which, IMHO, does not disrupt the flow of any sequence. Thus, you can either use all tokens and bomb cards, or you can only use 1 bomb card. Otherwise, you are changing the nature of a token for this one effect only.

How many "bomb upgrade cards" do you have equipped?

I applaud TOs taking this kind of initiative. Now let's see if any will ban Jumpmasters, because, you know...

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

I believe the theory is "well...when are you ever going to have a punisher/SCURRG survive long enough to drop four ACTION bombs?"

Well, that's certainly my theory.

The biggest problem with the Punisher is that it is too squishy to unload all of its ordnance. If I can deploy all its bombs (and token bombs) before the game even starts, then those are all points that were at least "used" (even if no one ever runs over them--I was at least able to affect play for the rest of the game).

Now, the Punisher is almost 1/2 empty, and all I have are a few missiles and torps to see if I can get lucky (read: not die with scores of unused ordnance points on board).

9 hours ago, haslo said:

Maybe, but it probably wouldn't win games. Ships that allow that generally have low primary attack values, leading to the fortressing player having fewer dice in the final salvo if it goes there - so they'd eventually have to move out of their fortress.

I built a fortress list the other day while theory crafting that used scum nym with minefield mapper to put out a couple sets of cluster mines to block in the formation so everyone gets the free evade on all incoming shots (plus predator and r5p8). Combined with a gunner, bossk outlaw tech slaver and a boshek gunnrunner.

8 attack dice isn't amazing, but isn't terrible either. I have another theory crafted fortress list with 3 slavers for 9 dice

What I genuinely don't get is why so many people are bent out of shape on minefield mapper and how it works. It states on the card what you can do and I realize there are people in this world that like nothing more than to debate why you could do something depending on what your definition of "is" is....

Only 1 faction can take more than 1 ship with minefield mapper and they only have 1 ship they can do it with. If someone takes 3 punishers to a regionals win, using the "I can drop all my mines including my EM tokens" line of hope then good luck to them. Personally I don't see it even making a cut, because if your opponent doesn't oblige by flying over the mines as you gun him down with your 2 attack dice... then you may have a problem.