The problem is the setup phase hasn't been a phase for timing issues, but that's slowly been changing. Adaptability, Lt. Dormitz, Hyperwave Comm Scanner, etc...

So if both players bring minefield mapper, who places first? You'd think it would be done in initiative order, but the setup phase isn't an active ship's turn, and there are no rules about it.

With the introduction of Minefield Mapper, at the very least, it's time for FFG to make a more robust setup phase sequence, especially if they intend to do any more abilities that do unusual things in the setup phase.

3 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:

That's an interesting theory. Did the designers ever state this bolded section anywhere? If they did I am unaware. If not...

... then everything after "ergo" is based on what you are theorizing are the Rules As Intended. But you don't even know that your version of RAI is even what the developers had in mind. It is purely hypothetical, and it could be wrong. It's actually more likely than not that this theory is wrong. Typically, the original intention is to let the card function exactly as it is written. Most of the FAQ clarifications over the last few years aren't technically even needed if you just read the rules as written.

Making a TO decision based on RAI is very bad precedent, unless there is some really obvious problem with the card wording, like being able to technically place the three portions of the cluster mine bombs separate on the map. But that is not the case here.

I stated on the S&V podcast recently that I would put the "Vegas Odds" at least 5:1 in favor of only being able to drop one bomb per physical bomb upgrade card that you have equipped. I have thought about making some bets with some of the adamant people who are of the other opinion, that the loser has to buy the other a ship, but then I would feel bad about getting a full wave of free ships, when it's almost certainly going to get ruled in favor of RAW.

I'll play devil's advocate. The card says "any number". OK, I chose 66 bombs! We'll call it "Order 66". Because 66 is "any number".

To the OP, it's really annoying that FFG hasn't released an FAQ yet. They have known about this for a while now.

It's not any number of equipped bomb cards though.

Just now, SaltMaster 5000 said:

It's not any number of equipped bomb cards though.

ding ding ding! we have a winner!

1 minute ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

It's not any number of equipped bomb cards though.

Eh my issue is that with that flowchart earlier is you're attempting to discard the same bomb card twice.

The first time you attempt it, it gets the munitions token, which to me would then end the interaction because you can only attempt this discard once per setup phase. I lean heavily towards a Punisher only being able to do 2 bombs, but I'm not a TO so my opinion means bupkis.

2 hours ago, Darth Meanie said:

This is asinine. What this means then, is that a bomber with 2 bombs and EM does NOT ACTUALLY HAVE 4 BOMBS ON BOARD, but instead has 2 bombs and 2 vouchers for bombs that will be instantly and miraculously delivered by GalactiSend mid combat when the pilot sends in his proof of purchase token for the 2 extra bombs.

It is completely counter intuitive to what the card should represent.

No it means the bomber with 2 bombs and EM is still limited in how many bombs it can deploy before the enemy arrives by its number of bomb slots (as good a mesure of rapid deployment capacity as any) not the total number of bombs it has onboard. It gets to retain the unused 2 for later deployment so it still has them, it juts can't get them into place before the shooting starts.

I ran a store championship this past weekend and before we started I clearly explained how all the new upgrades would be ruled. Minefield mapper can only place as many tokens as you have bombs regardless of EM and cluster mines have to be placed as a set. Everyone agreed and we had a great day. I don't understand why any TO would ban anything because of this.

6 minutes ago, HammerGibbens said:

Eh my issue is that with that flowchart earlier is you're attempting to discard the same bomb card twice.

The first time you attempt it, it gets the munitions token, which to me would then end the interaction because you can only attempt this discard once per setup phase. I lean heavily towards a Punisher only being able to do 2 bombs, but I'm not a TO so my opinion means bupkis.

EM doesn't count as discarding a card, it's instead of discarding the card.

Just like revealing a red maneuver counts as white if you have Adrenaline Rush and want to use it.

9 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:

That's an interesting theory. Did the designers ever state this bolded section anywhere? If they did I am unaware. If not...

... then everything after "ergo" is based on what you are theorizing are the Rules As Intended. But you don't even know that your version of RAI is even what the developers had in mind. It is purely hypothetical, and it could be wrong. It's actually more likely than not that this theory is wrong. Typically, the original intention is to let the card function exactly as it is written. Most of the FAQ clarifications over the last few years aren't technically even needed if you just read the rules as written.

So is evolution, but a lot of people are good with it.

Do you think that designers felt XWM was in dire need of a "token mechanic?"

The only really thing that sucks about this is the deafening silence from le ROI de FFG about RAI vs. RAW.

30 minutes ago, haslo said:

In programmer's terms, you're assuming a for loop, while I'm assuming a while loop. Both are perfectly valid, and both are expressed by the common language sentence "discard any number of your equipped bomb upgrade cards". But yes, which interpretation is chosen here is the core of the ambiguity of the card. Neither interpretation is superior to the other, or more correct given the card and rules text alone, and we need FFG's ruling on which one was intended.

Claiming that either interpretation is correct and the other isn't is not rationally possible because of that very ambiguity. Because it isn't rationally possible, emotions come into play, and thus the popcorn-worthiness of this thread.

I do see what you're saying, but I don't think it's valid to wait until you've finished discarding to decide on the number that 'any' is.

I can see an argument for:

any_number = 2
cards = []
while len(cards) != any_number:
	cards.append(discard_bomb_card())

I don't see any room for:

any_number = 0
while do_i_have_a_bomb_card():
    discard_bomb_card()
    any_number += 1

If the card is explicitly asking for a number then really you can't wait until you want to give it that number, you do it when told.

2 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

EM doesn't count as discarding a card, it's instead of discarding the card.

Just like revealing a red maneuver counts as white if you have Adrenaline Rush and want to use it.

Well that's what I'm sayin:

"When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token instead."

You're only instructed to do it 1 time, and that's "During Setup, after the "Place Forces" step." so in my head you try to discard the 1 card and get the ordnance instead. You still have 2 bombs equipped and 2 are minefield mapped from the token.

3 minutes ago, MenaceNsobriety said:

I ran a store championship this past weekend and before we started I clearly explained how all the new upgrades would be ruled. Minefield mapper can only place as many tokens as you have bombs regardless of EM and cluster mines have to be placed as a set. Everyone agreed and we had a great day. I don't understand why any TO would ban anything because of this.

Most TOs make rulings based on Rules As Written. Maybe you think it's more fun to play a different way, and that's your right as a TO. But most TOs are going the opposite way on this ruling, certainly all the ones in New England are. As a competitive players we are preparing for what we expect, and it would be annoying if a rogue TO wanted to judge his event differently, contrary to RAW and consensus.

6 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

If the card is explicitly asking for a number then really you can't wait until you want to give it that number, you do it when told.

while has_bomb_cards && wants_to_discard
  discard()

"Any number" doesn't need to be explicit.

1 hour ago, haslo said:

There is no "cards ability to discard a bomb". The card's ability is "During setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards. Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships."

You only have 2 equipped bomb upgrade cards

1 minute ago, haslo said:

while has_bomb_cards && wants_to_discard
  discard()

"Any number" doesn't need to be explicit.

Yes it does, the card is asking for it.

55 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

So is evolution, but a lot of people are good with it.

Do you think that designers felt XWM was in dire need of a "token mechanic?"

The only really thing that sucks about this is the deafening silence from le ROI de FFG about RAI vs. RAW.

There's a lot of evidence for evolution. There is zero evidence for his theory. If there is, I would be legitimately very interested to hear it. I am still waiting for a reply back from Frank on this ruling, but it looks like we will have to wait, and wait, and wait, for an FAQ.

Definitely sucks. FFG, up your game. Until then, we will get people arguing about RAW and RAI. And the more that people argue, the more they get entrenched regardless of evidence to the contrary - proven psychological trend. So it's largely a waste of time even discussing it, and is why I have generally even avoided talking about it.

Do as the card says. Do not do as the card does not say to do. Extra Munitions tokens do not count as cards. Extra Munitions upgrade card does not count as a bomb card. The Minefield Mapper is 100% unambiguous that you can only drop one bomb per equipped bomb upgrade card.

People are trying to argue bolt-on RAI, "well, the extra munition token should work differently..." Argument irrelevant. Card says what it says.

Minefield Mapper has a timing window. Executing the card text once is still a rule. RTFM.

And we're still going to keep arguing about this until FFG FAQs it.

[redundant / double post]

[redundant / triple post, get a forum n00b cookie]

17 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

You only have 2 equipped bomb upgrade cards

9 minutes ago, MajorJuggler said:

OK, so if I go with what you guys are saying, I can only equip the two bomb upgrade cards. The MM targets those cards.

I chuck them, and put out mines. Now I have 2 tokens. That are sitting on nothing. What do they now represent? I can't discard them instead of a card, because I have no card.

1 minute ago, Darth Meanie said:

OK, so if I go with what you guys are saying, I can only equip the two bomb upgrade cards. The MM targets those cards.

I chuck them, and put out mines. Now I have 2 tokens. That are sitting on nothing. What do they now represent? I can't discard them instead of a card, because I have no card.

Extra Munitions triggers after Minefield Mapper triggers, exactly the same way that it triggers after any other bomb deployment. So you discard an EM token to place the bomb during setup. Repeat for as many bombs as you want, up to the limit of how many equipped bomb upgrade cards you had when you originally triggered Minefield Mapper.

3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

OK, so if I go with what you guys are saying, I can only equip the two bomb upgrade cards. The MM targets those cards.

I chuck them, and put out mines. Now I have 2 tokens. That are sitting on nothing. What do they now represent? I can't discard them instead of a card, because I have no card.

You have 2 cards.
You decide you're going to discard 2 cards to place 2 mines.
You go to discard the first card, EM kicks in and you discard the token instead.
Ditto the second card
You now have 2 cards to use during the game.

Just now, VanderLegion said:

You have 2 cards.
You decide you're going to discard 2 cards to place 2 mines.
You go to discard the first card, EM kicks in and you discard the token instead.
Ditto the second card
You now have 2 cards to use during the game.

OK, I now get it.

But seriously, wonky timing interactions like this will be the death of the game.

1 hour ago, __underscore__ said:

Ah, the thing you've got wrong here is that you erroneously contracted 'discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards.' to 'discard any number of cards'.

4 is not a valid number of Bomb Upgrade cards equipped on any of the currently released ships in X-Wing, so I'm afraid that doesn't work.

I guess you're right with this one. I'm convinced.

Jesus, I sound like a right arsehole in that quote!

Yeah that tends to happen when you're arguing over fuzzy rules *hides head in shame*

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

OK, I now get it.

But seriously, wonky timing interactions like this will be the death of the game.

58 minutes ago, haslo said:

I guess you're right with this one. I'm convinced.

41 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Jesus, I sound like a right arsehole in that quote!

32 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

Yeah that tends to happen when you're arguing over fuzzy rules *hides head in shame*

OMG, did we just shut down all the garbage compactors of the detention level??