If you are arguing or have made a statement about how a card or interaction works (like Minefield Mapper) on this thread...

CONGRATULATIONS... you have contributed to the derailing of this thread. Here is your troll badge, wear it proudly.

NOW... can we go back to the actual OP and thread topic?

2 minutes ago, Sephlar said:

If you are arguing or have made a statement about how a card or interaction works (like Minefield Mapper) on this thread...

CONGRATULATIONS... you have contributed to the derailing of this thread. Here is your troll badge, wear it proudly.

NOW... can we go back to the actual OP and thread topic?

I can.

The answer is most likely no.

Until someone tells them or they trawl their way through the forums to find this thread, which doesn't provide any actual detail or fact in the OP's statement. FFG OP will quite rightly point out that a TO at a store champ can do this as it's still a "casual" tier event. OR... FFG would point out that they have no direct evidence of this, unless people can identify tournaments which have been affected.

IMO - Rather than banning the card, said TO's could also apply their own interpretation of the cards function (i'm in the once per opportunity camp, there I said it) and use that ruling in their tournament. I mean, how many people are running a 3 punisher list with mapper and cluster mines anyway.....

9 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Minefield Mapper. The card itself doesn't give you the opportunity to loop around to the 'discard' portion of the text and you can't use the ability twice, as per the rule you just quoted.

See that's where we disagree, same for @Vineheart01

Minefieldmapper is resolved exactly once, but "for any number of bomb upgrade cards". This has nothing to do, at all, with the usage of Extra Munitions.

The bomb upgrade can only be resolved once in this timeframe., but here comes the tricky part: you're not actually resolving the bomb! Instead you just discard it, and then do something specified by MM and somewhat by the discarded bomb (i.e. which bomb token).

And this is why, in my opinion, the Once-per-opportunity people are right for the wrong reasons.

2 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

Does FFG realize that certain Tournaments are not allowing Minefield Mapper and Jabba, until a Clarification FAQ comes out. I don't think they do.

Yes. Hopefully, they're taking notes on who these gutless TO's are, and making sure to never use them as judges at premiere events. Seriously, just make a ruling as a TO, and make it public so everyone knows in advance.

4 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

See that's where we disagree, same for @Vineheart01

Minefieldmapper is resolved exactly once, but "for any number of bomb upgrade cards". This has nothing to do, at all, with the usage of Extra Munitions.

The bomb upgrade can only be resolved once in this timeframe., but here comes the tricky part: you're not actually resolving the bomb! Instead you just discard it, and then do something specified by MM and somewhat by the discarded bomb (i.e. which bomb token).

And this is why, in my opinion, the Once-per-opportunity people are right for the wrong reasons.

I agree the 'Once per Opportunity' has no interaction with the use of Extra Munitions, I'm saying that it applies to being able to pick a number of Bomb upgrade cards only once, not again after EM is triggered.

27 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

You can't use it as a card, nowhere in the rules does it say that you can. It just gives you an ability that allows you to avoid discarding a card.

It does not prevent me from discarding a card per se. It says: if the subject of the action is a card, you can instead use a token. That is NOT the same as not discarding a card.

Ergo, if the object of the action is a card, but a token can also be the object of that action, then the token and the card are equivalent. It does not prevent anything; it redirects the action.

Which, IMHO, does not disrupt the flow of any sequence. Thus, you can either use all tokens and bomb cards, or you can only use 1 bomb card. Otherwise, you are changing the nature of a token for this one effect only.

Sounds like a bunch of dumb TOs.

7 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

I agree the 'Once per Opportunity' has no interaction with the use of Extra Munitions, I'm saying that it applies to being able to pick a number of Bomb upgrade cards only once, not again after EM is triggered.

I see. I still don't think that's due to once per opportunity, but rather because MM specifies an upper limit of bomb upgrade cards, and that's how often you can place bombs.

The consequence is that my interpretation means I could place 2 bombs and pay 1 card + 1 token, while your interpretation means you have to pay the two tokens (or the card+token of course). Not that it really changes anything for the game.

11 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

It does not prevent me from discarding a card per se. It says: if the subject of the action is a card, you can instead use a token. That is NOT the same as not discarding a card.

Ergo, if the object of the action is a card, but a token can also be the object of that action, then the token and the card are equivalent. It does not prevent anything; it redirects the action.

Which, IMHO, does not disrupt the flow of any sequence. Thus, you can either use all tokens and bomb cards, or you can only use 1 bomb card. Otherwise, you are changing the nature of a token for this one effect only.

No, it doesn't say that at all, your extrapolation is incorrect.

It says, as is clear on the card 'When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.' It's an ability that triggers, quite specifically, on the discard of the card. If you're looking for the condition of EM that that's it: discard an Upgrade card.

The token is not equal to a card, it allows you to use the rules of Extra Munitions instead of the standard game effect. The fact that that game effect stops you from discarding a card is incidental.

10 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I see. I still don't think that's due to once per opportunity, but rather because MM specifies an upper limit of bomb upgrade cards, and that's how often you can place bombs.

The consequence is that my interpretation means I could place 2 bombs and pay 1 card + 1 token, while your interpretation means you have to pay the two tokens (or the card+token of course). Not that it really changes anything for the game.

Ahhhhhhh, I see what you're saying. You're saying that the loop is in 'discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards'; that you choose a number then discard them in turn. After the first one you still have 2 cards to pick from (thanks to EM), so you can choose the same one again.

I can see the logic there, but the fact that it's a single action to 'discard any number' means I don't agree. If it was 'Pick a number of cards, then discard them' then I think your interpretation would be the correct one. But I do see where you're coming from.

1 minute ago, __underscore__ said:

Ahhhhhhh, I see what you're saying. You're saying that the loop is in 'discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards'; that you choose a number then discard them in turn. After the first one you still have 2 cards to pick from (thanks to EM), so you can choose the same one again.

I can see the logic there, but the fact that it's a single action to 'discard any number' means I don't agree. If it was 'Pick a number of cards, then discard them' then I think your interpretation would be the correct one. But I do see where you're coming from.

Exactly, because of "any number of upgrade cards". As far as I understand, any means "we want this to be flexible".
And because there are no true simultaneous effects apart from handling dice (rolling, spending focus). So the question to me is what is used as iterator: number of bombs placed, or which cards were already used.

Also in my understanding the game does not really remember things, so it has no way to know whether the placed bomb came from one or the other upgrade card. But it does clearly know how many were placed, and how many you are allowed to place.

So together these are my reasons why I came to this rather strange interpretation.

1 hour ago, Sephlar said:

NOW... can we go back to the actual OP and thread topic?

Sure.

The answer is NO.

or

YES, but they are not doing anything about it.

Thread closed. Glad we got that sorted.

All that other derailing was just proof that there is a real-world issue to address, OTOH.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Something official would be nice. Seriously, how hard would it be?

seriously. I am so effing sick of "well, FFG told the cool kids that they're going to rule like so."

Either tell everyone or keep your mouth shut!

2 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

Does FFG realize that certain Tournaments are not allowing Minefield Mapper and Jabba, until a Clarification FAQ comes out. I don't think they do.

Are they not allowing the cards at all or are they not allowing them to be used the way you want them to be used?

It is one thing to disallow the card entirely. If they are doing this and it is a store championship, you could probably complaint to Organized Play.

It is another thing to issue a ruling on how the card works. Simply disagreeing with that ruling doesn't mean that they aren't allowing the cards.

I have seen plenty of TOs issue rulings ahead of time to give participants a heads up on how the card will work. That is a good thing. I haven't seen any that banned the cards (I may just not be privy to those rulings though).

49 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

No, it doesn't say that at all, your extrapolation is incorrect.

It says, as is clear on the card 'When you are instructed to discard an Upgrade card, you may discard 1 ordnance token on that card instead.' It's an ability that triggers, quite specifically, on the discard of the card. If you're looking for the condition of EM that that's it: discard an Upgrade card.

The token is not equal to a card, it allows you to use the rules of Extra Munitions instead of the standard game effect. The fact that that game effect stops you from discarding a card is incidental.

This is asinine. What this means then, is that a bomber with 2 bombs and EM does NOT ACTUALLY HAVE 4 BOMBS ON BOARD, but instead has 2 bombs and 2 vouchers for bombs that will be instantly and miraculously delivered by GalactiSend mid combat when the pilot sends in his proof of purchase token for the 2 extra bombs.

It is completely counter intuitive to what the card should represent.

Make sense, MM is the most ponderous upgrade to exist with all the other upgrade interactions.

5 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

2 vouchers for bombs that will be instantly and miraculously delivered by GalactiSend mid combat when the pilot sends in his proof of purchase for the 2 extra bombs.

If there's time to use Scavenger Crane...

6 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

This is asinine. What this means then, is that a bomber with 2 bombs and EM does NOT ACTUALLY HAVE 4 BOMBS ON BOARD, but instead has 2 bombs and 2 vouchers for bombs that will be instantly and miraculously delivered by GalactiSend mid combat when the pilot sends in his proof of purchase for the 2 extra bombs.

It is completely counter intuitive to what the card should represent.

I mean... that's what a lot of people are ruling that Jabba does. The only rationale for him not working after he's dead is that when he's alive, he's magically teleporting new supplies of Glitterstim to friendly ships as soon as they run out. Maybe he borrows Boba's jet pack?

21 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

This is asinine. What this means then, is that a bomber with 2 bombs and EM does NOT ACTUALLY HAVE 4 BOMBS ON BOARD, but instead has 2 bombs and 2 vouchers for bombs that will be instantly and miraculously delivered by GalactiSend mid combat when the pilot sends in his proof of purchase token for the 2 extra bombs.

It is completely counter intuitive to what the card should represent.

Sure, and X-Wings have 3 dice for 4 cannons and are limited to 45 degree increments of turning. It feels like an odd moment to realise that the ruleset is just a construct.

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

It does not prevent me from discarding a card per se. It says: if the subject of the action is a card, you can instead use a token. That is NOT the same as not discarding a card.

Ergo, if the object of the action is a card, but a token can also be the object of that action, then the token and the card are equivalent. It does not prevent anything; it redirects the action.

Which, IMHO, does not disrupt the flow of any sequence. Thus, you can either use all tokens and bomb cards, or you can only use 1 bomb card. Otherwise, you are changing the nature of a token for this one effect only.

Well said.

EM is a go for mine mapper.

ALLTHEBOMBS!!!!!

18 minutes ago, skotothalamos said:

I mean... that's what a lot of people are ruling that Jabba does. The only rationale for him not working after he's dead is that when he's alive, he's magically teleporting new supplies of Glitterstim to friendly ships as soon as they run out. Maybe he borrows Boba's jet pack?

17 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Sure, and X-Wings have 3 dice for 4 cannons and are limited to 45 degrees of turning. It feels like an odd moment to realise that the ruleset is just a construct.

Yeah, well, the designers version of the x-wing is an interpretation I cannot easily reinterpret.

Not having a token function as a second copy of the card is the main problem here. I would have thought the token idea was supposed to be an easy way to represent a second copy of the card, both for EM and Jabba.

Why do tokens exist? Because they cannot include a copy of every card that a token could duplicate in a single blister pack. Rather than include every known illicit upgrade in Jabba's expac, you use a token.

Making a token it's own game mechanic independent of cards creates unnecessary minutia and confusion, IMHO.

3 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

Not having a token function as a second copy of the card is the main problem here. I would have thought the token idea was supposed to be an easy way to represent a second copy of the card, both for EM and Jabba.

But, I mean, you posted the card and everything. It's written quite clearly on there.

14 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

But, I mean, you posted the card and everything. It's written quite clearly on there.

Clear as mud. I'm not the only one confused, hence the reason this thread exists.

Tokens exist only because FFG cannot supply every card they could represent. They should have been ruled to be a second copy of the card once in play, full stop. Ergo, they are not linked to the card that created them once in play. No interpretation of what does a token does/means would ever be necessary.

3 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

Does FFG realize that certain Tournaments are not allowing Minefield Mapper and Jabba, until a Clarification FAQ comes out. I don't think they do.

What tournaments? Where? Those TOs are idiots.

3 hours ago, eagletsi111 said:

Double post, sorry