58 minutes ago, judgeender said:

Are they not allowing the cards at all or are they not allowing them to be used the way you want them to be used?

It is one thing to disallow the card entirely. If they are doing this and it is a store championship, you could probably complaint to Organized Play.

It is another thing to issue a ruling on how the card works. Simply disagreeing with that ruling doesn't mean that they aren't allowing the cards.

I have seen plenty of TOs issue rulings ahead of time to give participants a heads up on how the card will work. That is a good thing. I haven't seen any that banned the cards (I may just not be privy to those rulings though).

Pretty much this. At a store championship at least, a TO should never ban a card, they should just rule on it and announce their ruling ahead of time. At a normal store kit or otherwise tournament, I still don't think you should ban cards like jabba or MM just because of some confusion over how they work. Again, just make a ruling on the card. If they don't like the ruling, they can choose not to bring it. The only reason cards should be "banned" at fun tournaments is to change up the format (things like movie ships only, etc)

4 hours ago, phild0 said:

I mean, TOs can make whatever ruling they want on a card, per Tourney Rules, so that is fine.

In the same light, TOs COULD just rule based on RAI over an awkward card-ruining RAW if they wanted to.

Don't be afraid!

What's most important is that this stuff is said at the beginning of the event or perhaps before.

As long as it's made clear.

What are Vegas odds on this issue? Should we start a pool?

IMO Minefield Mapper allows one to drop 4 bombs from a punisher. The card says any number.

Discarding an EM token is also an, "instead of" ability, so it's distinct from discarding a card.

So you're not double tapping a card discard, you're doing an EM discard and a card discard, EM discard and a card discard. Now 4 bombs are on the table.

2 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

IMO Minefield Mapper allows one to drop 4 bombs from a punisher. The card says any number.

Discarding an EM token is also an, "instead of" ability, so it's distinct from discarding a card.

So you're not double tapping a card discard, you're doing an EM discard and a card discard, EM discard and a card discard. Now 4 bombs are on the table.

MM says to discard any number of cards. EM isn't a card. You can use it to discard INSTEAD of a bomb card, but it doesn't give you an extra discard to get more bombs out with MM. As many people have pointed out, once per opportunity means you can only choose to discard each card once.

This is exactly why we need a FAQ for this.

We can spell the rules out over and over and over again and people will still hang on the "any number" crap to say EM still works, despite the timing depicted by the card saying otherwise.

EM IS NOT A BOMB! Once you "discard" your selected bombs, EM kicks in and doesnt discard the card instead discards the token. How can you suddenly select the two cards that are now still there without repeating the card over again?

1 minute ago, VanderLegion said:

MM says to discard any number of cards. EM isn't a card. You can use it to discard INSTEAD of a bomb card, but it doesn't give you an extra discard to get more bombs out with MM. As many people have pointed out, once per opportunity means you can only choose to discard each card once.

There is no "once per opportunity". But we're running in circles.

Just now, VanderLegion said:

MM says to discard any number of cards. EM isn't a card. You can use it to discard INSTEAD of a bomb card, but it doesn't give you an extra discard to get more bombs out with MM. As many people have pointed out, once per opportunity means you can only choose to discard each card once.

And with EM, you discard the ordnance token instead of discarding the bomb card.

So you're not discarding the same card twice. You said this yourself.

Minefield Mapper was just a really dumb idea. People will ragequit if it goes either way.

Just now, Vineheart01 said:

EM IS NOT A BOMB! Once you "discard" your selected bombs, EM kicks in and doesnt discard the card instead discards the token. How can you suddenly select the two cards that are now still there without repeating the card over again?

You don't have to.

Resolve "discard any number of cards":

• Start discarding the first bomb card. Instead of discarding the bomb card, remove the token. Finish discarding the first bomb card. One card discarded, two cards and one token remain.
• Start discarding the first bomb card. Finish discarding the first bomb card. Two bomb cards discarded, one card and one token remain.
• Start discarding the remaining bomb card. Instead of discarding the bomb card, remove the token. Finish discarding the remaining bomb card. Three bomb cards discarded, one card remains.
• Start discarding the remaining bomb card. Finish discarding the remaining bomb card. Four bomb cards discarded, no card remains.

So, four cards discarded for "discard any number of cards", now for every discarded card place a bomb token - four bomb tokens.

I see no problems at all with that.

this is why FFG really needs to be exact with timing window crap...

All it ever is is an endless bicker about "no its this way" or "no its that way" until its faq'd. EVERY time they release something that allows you to shift the usual order or interrupt something we previously couldnt this exact debate pops up again.

People are still questioning Snap + PA for instance on a red move. Why i have no idea, but different discussion.

Just now, Vineheart01 said:

this is why FFG really needs to be exact with timing window crap...

All it ever is is an endless bicker about "no its this way" or "no its that way" until its faq'd.

I absolutely agree. I only word my posts this strongly because the posts that claim that it's the other way around are worded as strongly. Personally, I have no clue which way is correct, because I see the arguments for both sides as equally valid.

13 minutes ago, haslo said:

There is no "once per opportunity". But we're running in circles.

Yes there is

l6Y5uBZ.jpg

11 minutes ago, haslo said:

You don't have to.

Resolve "discard any number of cards":

• Start discarding the first bomb card. Instead of discarding the bomb card, remove the token. Finish discarding the first bomb card. One card discarded, two cards and one token remain.
• Start discarding the first bomb card. Finish discarding the first bomb card. Two bomb cards discarded, one card and one token remain.
• Start discarding the remaining bomb card. Instead of discarding the bomb card, remove the token. Finish discarding the remaining bomb card. Three bomb cards discarded, one card remains.
• Start discarding the remaining bomb card. Finish discarding the remaining bomb card. Four bomb cards discarded, no card remains.

So, four cards discarded for "discard any number of cards", now for every discarded card place a bomb token - four bomb tokens.

I see no problems at all with that.

#ALLTHEBOMBS!!!

Another well stated post proving EM works with Mapper!

Just now, VanderLegion said:

Yes there is

l6Y5uBZ.jpg

I'll post my answer from the first page, it waited in my clipboard for this post of yours:

3 hours ago, haslo said:

I keep reading and hearing that, but I've looked through the entire rulebooks (all three of them) and the FAQ, and while I did find various anecdotal rules that make stuff once-per-opportunity (like "cannot perform the same action more than once during a single round" and "card ability cannot be resolved more than once during the timing specifed on the card"), there is no generic once-per-oportunity rule that would apply to Minefield Mapper.

Looking at all those "once per opportunity rules", I have not found one that would apply here. Would you be so kind to show me a rules quote that would apply to Minefield Mapper in a way that makes it impossible to choose the same card twice while resolving the Minefield Mapper's card ability?

We're not talking about a card ability resolving more than once. We're talking about a card being discarded more than once as parts of resolving one card ability (Minefield Mapper's) once.

I don't have any issues with a ruling either way on minefield mapper. I largely believe it is a trap card anyway that shouldn't be seeing competive play anyways, but that's kind of beside the point. It's not super clear one way or the other, so a ruling is a ruling in this case and is justified either way.

I do have an issue with TOs who are choosing to disregard written rules when it has been explained clearly to them, as has been the case with Jabba in some very prominent xwing areas. The issue with this is it sets a precedent, as a lot of other areas look to these areas with larger communities for their own rulings (as was such the case in my area). Due to this, no one could reasonably expect to play Jabba the Hutt because he was handicapped so heavily.

My bigger issue with this is when these players who did their best to make this clear to the TO on the Facebook page are then ridiculed by the same TO in a seperate post.

Just now, haslo said:

I'll post my answer from the first page, it waited in my clipboard for this post of yours:

We're not talking about a card ability resolving more than once. We're talking about a card being discarded more than once as parts of resolving one card ability (Minefield Mapper's) once.

You're resolving the cards ability to discard a bomb multiple times for each bomb.

2 minutes ago, VanderLegion said:

You're resolving the cards ability to discard a bomb multiple times for each bomb.

There is no "cards ability to discard a bomb". The card's ability is "During setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards. Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships."

19 minutes ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

IMO Minefield Mapper allows one to drop 4 bombs from a punisher. The card says any number.

Discarding an EM token is also an, "instead of" ability, so it's distinct from discarding a card.

So you're not double tapping a card discard, you're doing an EM discard and a card discard, EM discard and a card discard. Now 4 bombs are on the table.

Yep.

11 minutes ago, haslo said:

You don't have to.

Resolve "discard any number of cards":

• Start discarding the first bomb card. Instead of discarding the bomb card, remove the token. Finish discarding the first bomb card. One card discarded, two cards and one token remain.
• Start discarding the first bomb card. Finish discarding the first bomb card. Two bomb cards discarded, one card and one token remain.
• Start discarding the remaining bomb card. Instead of discarding the bomb card, remove the token. Finish discarding the remaining bomb card. Three bomb cards discarded, one card remains.
• Start discarding the remaining bomb card. Finish discarding the remaining bomb card. Four bomb cards discarded, no card remains.

So, four cards discarded for "discard any number of cards", now for every discarded card place a bomb token - four bomb tokens.

I see no problems at all with that.

Yep.

14 minutes ago, Vineheart01 said:

This is exactly why we need a FAQ for this.

We can spell the rules out over and over and over again and people will still hang on the "any number" crap to say EM still works, despite the timing depicted by the card saying otherwise.

EM IS NOT A BOMB! Once you "discard" your selected bombs, EM kicks in and doesnt discard the card instead discards the token. How can you suddenly select the two cards that are now still there without repeating the card over again?

Of course EM is not a bomb. EM only "kicks in" to grant the tokens. Once they are in existence, MM is allowed to act on a token as if it were a bomb card. EM no longer has anything to say about that function except to indicate that the token can, in fact, be used in the place of a bomb card.

Judging by how we seriously had to have an argument over whether or not Cikatro Vizago could put small base upgrades onto big ships and vise versa, this discussion will never end.

If certain people are going to argue that water isn't wet, then something as unclear as this will never be decided by us alone.

When I judge an SC this Saturday, the ruling I will make will be to allow all 4 bombs to be dropped from the Punisher. I think I'm right on this issue, but I'm not completely steadfast in my interpretation and I could very well be wrong when FFG FAQ's it.

I'll have to see what the C-ROC pamphlet says about Jabba, literally pulled out the cards and put everything back in its box. Without the pamphlet he doesn't work when the ship he is on dies. Apparently the pamphlet contradicts this? The box is still in my trunk.

Watch FFG says you can put EVERYTHING EM and all on the table or something stupid like that.

bomblet generator has placed an infinite amount of bombs. Anyone that moves faster than 1 straight is dead.

Well given how FFG writes their rules (results over dice) this could be the ruling.

35 minutes ago, haslo said:

You don't have to.

Resolve "discard any number of cards":

• Start discarding the first bomb card. Instead of discarding the bomb card, remove the token. Finish discarding the first bomb card. One card discarded, two cards and one token remain.
• Start discarding the first bomb card. Finish discarding the first bomb card. Two bomb cards discarded, one card and one token remain.
• Start discarding the remaining bomb card. Instead of discarding the bomb card, remove the token. Finish discarding the remaining bomb card. Three bomb cards discarded, one card remains.
• Start discarding the remaining bomb card. Finish discarding the remaining bomb card. Four bomb cards discarded, no card remains.

So, four cards discarded for "discard any number of cards", now for every discarded card place a bomb token - four bomb tokens.

I see no problems at all with that.

Ah, the thing you've got wrong here is that you erroneously contracted 'discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards.' to 'discard any number of cards'.

4 is not a valid number of Bomb Upgrade cards equipped on any of the currently released ships in X-Wing, so I'm afraid that doesn't work.

7 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

Ah, the thing you've got wrong here is that you erroneously contracted 'discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards.' to 'discard any number of cards'.

4 is not a valid number of Bomb Upgrade cards equipped on any of the currently released ships in X-Wing, so I'm afraid that doesn't work.

In programmer's terms, you're assuming a for loop, while I'm assuming a while loop. Both are perfectly valid, and both are expressed by the common language sentence "discard any number of your equipped bomb upgrade cards". But yes, which interpretation is chosen here is the core of the ambiguity of the card. Neither interpretation is superior to the other, or more correct given the card and rules text alone, and we need FFG's ruling on which one was intended.

Claiming that either interpretation is correct and the other isn't is not rationally possible because of that very ambiguity. Because it isn't rationally possible, emotions come into play, and thus the popcorn-worthiness of this thread.

8 minutes ago, haslo said:

In programmer's terms, you're assuming a for loop, while I'm assuming a while loop. Both are perfectly valid, and both are expressed by the common language sentence "discard any number of your equipped bomb upgrade cards". But yes, which interpretation is chosen here is the core of the ambiguity of the card. Neither interpretation is superior to the other, or more correct given the card and rules text alone, and we need FFG's ruling on which one was intended.

Claiming that either interpretation is correct and the other isn't is not rationally possible because of that very ambiguity. Because it isn't rationally possible, emotions come into play, and thus the popcorn-worthiness of this thread.

Yeah, well, I think your viewpoint is

()

1 hour ago, Darth Meanie said:

Clear as mud. I'm not the only one confused, hence the reason this thread exists.

Tokens exist only because FFG cannot supply every card they could represent. They should have been ruled to be a second copy of the card once in play, full stop. Ergo, they are not linked to the card that created them once in play. No interpretation of what does a token does/means would ever be necessary.

That's an interesting theory. Did the designers ever state this bolded section anywhere? If they did I am unaware. If not...

... then everything after "ergo" is based on what you are theorizing are the Rules As Intended. But you don't even know that your version of RAI is even what the developers had in mind. It is purely hypothetical, and it could be wrong. It's actually more likely than not that this theory is wrong. Typically, the original intention is to let the card function exactly as it is written. Most of the FAQ clarifications over the last few years aren't technically even needed if you just read the rules as written.

Making a TO decision based on RAI is very bad precedent, unless there is some really obvious problem with the card wording, like being able to technically place the three portions of the cluster mine bombs separate on the map. But that is not the case here.

1 hour ago, Djaskim609 said:

What are Vegas odds on this issue? Should we start a pool?

I stated on the S&V podcast recently that I would put the "Vegas Odds" at least 5:1 in favor of only being able to drop one bomb per physical bomb upgrade card that you have equipped. I have thought about making some bets with some of the adamant people who are of the other opinion, that the loser has to buy the other a ship, but then I would feel bad about getting a full wave of free ships, when it's almost certainly going to get ruled in favor of RAW.

1 hour ago, SaltMaster 5000 said:

IMO Minefield Mapper allows one to drop 4 bombs from a punisher. The card says any number.

Discarding an EM token is also an, "instead of" ability, so it's distinct from discarding a card.

So you're not double tapping a card discard, you're doing an EM discard and a card discard, EM discard and a card discard. Now 4 bombs are on the table.

I'll play devil's advocate. The card says "any number". OK, I chose 66 bombs! We'll call it "Order 66". Because 66 is "any number".

To the OP, it's really annoying that FFG hasn't released an FAQ yet. They have known about this for a while now.