Hey everyone,

I have a great time reading everyone's thoughts on the meta this week and thought I'd chime in. As always, let me know if you agree/disagree and thanks for reading!

https://www.twintroopers.com/skirmish/2017/7/20/2smisbq5oywqr785oixdqjlkw7hg8w

- Dietz

Great meta post Dietz and I agree with you on almost all points. The sky is defintely not falling when it comes to comparing hunters/eQuays to other units imo. Prowl is very strong on some of the current maps where you can hide out and not worry about taking shots round one. Fortunately for your opponent this generally means you are conceding objective points on that round as well.

I do 100% believe Take Initiative should be banned and hope FFG will do something to address this(I'm fine with most of the suggested nerfs from people) It just is an unfun mechanic right now in the way it's implemented and is defintely not promoting diversity.

Temporary Alliance I don't see as a huge problem and if it weren't for how powerful some rebel support figures(mainly Gideon, 3PO. I'm more okay with Hera now even though she is very good as well) are then I don't think anyone would even be talking about it. I'd like to see a small unique fix to R2D2 to put him in a spot to compete for that support role with those other units. Also more strong self focusing units like BT-1 and IG-88 will open up other options for people.

On this same vein I do really wish Imperials had more diversity in their support units. It gets tired bringing standard officers for every single list to fill in the gaps. Some unique figures in the 2-3 cost range would do Mercs and Imperials some good(I'd prefer these new figures don't provide focus but some other method of support)

I'm fine with Gideon staying the same as long as other similar units can begin to compete with him(my new ghost support units)

I think SoS and Blaze of Glory are two of the things making IG-88 and Jedi Luke playable right now but have to agree the swinginess is defintely not fun for an opponent. Yesterday I played in the Reddit tourney against a list featuring Jedi Luke and round one Devotion was played to grab SoS. Knowing this and that intiative would pass to my opponent on round 2 my entire list held back towards my side of the map to prevent JL from getting in too many free shots. But even knowing all these things there is nothing you can do to stop it. Sure enough JL double moves at the end of the round and then proceeds to take 5 three dice attacks at my figures before any kind of retaliation is possible. Note here that I'm not saying these cards are too powerful but more that the fact that there is no counterplay makes them unfun to play against. I might also be biased and salty though because that JL also dodged 3 of my next 5 attacks against him.

Overall great writeup man keep doing the good work and thank you for the content.

I wouldn't say, Scum/Hunters are overpowered. They are just more easy to use.

Weequays and Stormtroopers both have a reroll. But Stormtroopers have to be positioned correctly to use it, Weequays don't. Using their Reroll is a no-brainer.

Assassinate gives +3 damage when needed. Compared to the 21 Damage I've done with a single Grenadier, this ain't overpowered. Still Assassinate does not need an action, any skills, bad positioning of your opponent or good positioning of yourself. After Rerolls you check if you have rolled enough damage, or else you apply Assassinate. Using Assassinate is a no-brainer.

I could easily give ten more examples, all ending with ... is a no-brainer.

The number of possible mistakes is reduced massively when playing Scum/Hunters. If you tend to make such mistakes, Scum/Hunters are good for you. Really good players, that usually don't make such mistakes, have a further advantage. They don't need to concentrate on not making mistakes and can use their full potential on strategy and tactics.

This is what makes Scum/Hunters so powerful. Card by card, skill by skill, number by number they are not overpowered. But they reduce player mistakes and give more room for positioning, tactics and strategy. In that, they are way more effective then everything else.

A second point is, scum has the best options of all worlds: Cheap Support (e.g. additional movement, reliable focus), door openers, mid-cost troops, expensive Characters. Right now, scum has it all (Jabba, Weequays, IG-88, just to name a few). And if they don't have it, then they Temp Alliance or eJawa it into their lists (Gideon, Hera, 3PO, BT-1, ...). I think, this is where the joy ends. There is by far no Merc unit I've seen played more often than Gideon or 3PO. I sincerely doubt, that this was in the designers' intentions.

Therefore, I think, either the scum version of Temp Alliance should be banned, or Gideon and 3PO should have their skills reduced to "friendly REBEL figure".

On ‎19‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 10:44 PM, MadFuhrer said:

Make gideon and 3po only able to focus rebel units. boom, done.

36 minutes ago, thereisnotry said:

On a serious point, though, I agree with this 100% as the answer to the Temporary Alliance topic:

If someone wants to bring eRangers or Jedi Luke into a Merc squad, then that's fine with me. It's the cheap and ubiquitous Focus that's the problem.

2 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

On ‎19‎.‎07‎.‎2017 at 10:44 PM, MadFuhrer said:

Make gideon and 3po only able to focus rebel units. boom, done.

I worry that if something like this is done then everyone just swaps from eQuays, Vinto and Onar to eRangers and then we have to same problem just with a different faction. I mean eventually some rebel units are going to be good enough that you'd rather take 3PO and Gideon in a rebel list over a merc list. Or at least you'll want them in both lists.

The eRangers need a lot more skill to play than the eQuays. I would have no problem with that.

And for scum it's most likely, that the classic Rebel Care Package is just replaced by Jabba. But I'm fine with that too.

GREAT Article. Here are some of my thoughts. (I am purely imperial player, so my point of view may be a little biased, but I really put some thought into it and I hope, that it's not the case :D)

UNITS. I think, that eWequays are not that better (actually I am not convinced, that they are better at all), than eJets (IMO eRangers are the best troopers in the game ATM, because they fulfill similar role as pirates, but generally do it better (better range, higher survivability and MOST OF ALL 3 figures activation). eJets with targeting computers provide really consistent and high damage (provided you can get them in range), connected with really nice mobility and high survivability thanks to 7 health, agile (which is one of my favorite defence skills) and zillo. They also have access to really strong command cards like overrun, call the vanguard, squad swarm etc. not to mention IG/Jedi Luke double activations with TI. The thing is, that the wequays are just easiest to play and consistent. Many times all you have to do is camp in a good spot and dish out damage, so you don't have to problem with positioning etc. On top of that failed attack with pirates (caused by cold dice, command cards or anything else) often doesn't leave you that exposed for counter attack, because - thanks to their range - you can just back off to safer spot and wait for the situation to develop (on the other hand if you go in with eJets and won't achieve your goal they are basicly dead). I totally agree, that ATM scum are the most dominant faction right now, but It's not the eWequays alone, that cause it (as eRangers are generally better).

COMMAND CARDS. I won't agree, that Hunter trait is that far superior to others right now. Sure, assasinate, tools, primary target onar can take down Jedi Luke, but on the other squad swarm, grenade, overrun eJets can wreck entire groups of figures. The thing is (just like with the pirates) hunter cards are just easiest to use (they don't have any particular positioning requirements) and very versatile (you get 3 hps left? ok I will assasinate. I need more dmg? ok I will add tools etc.). The problem with command cards for me is, that they are generally overpowered and have to much input in the game, which in it's basis is a figures game. They not only seriously limit positoning options (you have to assume, that your opponent may have card x (which in most cases you cannot check) so you are forced to make suboptimal moves or risking throwing out the game, but they also seriously enhance the luck factor and can decide the game before it event starts. Hovewer main input command cards bring into meta is, that both rebels and scum have lots of ways to gett additional command cards (jabba, r2d2, rebel hq, black market) the empire - except for rule by fear, which is expensive and right now hard to fill in because of the cost issues (2x ejets with tc, zillo, terro/droids leaves you with very liitle room for additional goodies) does not. Considering how powerfull the command card are I think, that is the main reason, why empire is considered sub par. I think, that all the empire needs to catch up to other factions is just more command cards.

FOCUS. "eWequays with focus wreak havoc" It's totally true, but on the other hand, without focus, they are not that scary. It's obvious, that focused units are better that, unfocused and scum and rebels have a lots of ways to provide it, but on the other hand, all of the modern imperial units, have at least 3 dice attack, so in my opinion it balances it out. On the other hand, as jabba fell out of grace (which I totally cannot understand) maybe it's time to say sorry, to our old good eStormies. The other thing, is that as nice focused hidden pirate can really blow things of the board, losing one of them before he activates leaves you in really big disadvantage (not to menton Disorient, which helps a lot with providing peace in the galaxy ;D). The only thing I don't like about those focus oriented lists is that everyone gets gideon and c3po (or sometimes jabba/c3po) which is just boring and stalls the game.

TAKE INITIATIVE. I Hate this card, but, because of Devious Scheme it's the only way for non scum lists to get that precious first activation Turn 2. I would really like it to be removed, because of it's disrupting input into the flow of the game, limiting hand variance and all the other things everyone knows, but when you face scum this is the only way, to partially negate tremendous advantage they get from Devious Scheme. Verdict - take away TI but take Devious scheme with it

DOMINANT STRATEGIES. I think, that atm the most dominant strategy is just sniping things whith your hunters. It's not that of a problem because this issue can be very easy fixed by different map layouts (I LOVE the bottom side of Jabba's Palace!).

TEMPORARY ALLIANCE. I don't like it because it basicly says "hello mr scum feel free to take rebel support" :). It's not, that it's overpowered, but it's just boring. How many times do I have to see hera/Gideon/C3PO on the table? The other funny thing is, that the only faction that REALLY would put a great and interresting use to it - REBELS - don't have access to it (jedi luke + jabba palace scum all heroes list anyone?)

LIST VARRIANCE. There are lots of viable lists as long, as you play hunters. The reason for that is - thanks to TA and eJawa - you get acess to most of the goodies other factions offer + you have your own trumps like black market or devious scheme (and in some cases you can get better use of the other faction deployment cards, than it's "owners" - pray on the weak/explosive armaments BT-1? count me in ;D). On the other hand other factions don't have access to your goodies (jabba, eJawa, IG-88 are merc only). From purely competitive point of view I must say, that it shouldn't matter, that most of the lists are build around the same faction (and it wouldn't matter for me) but there is one thing, that puts a wrench into it. IT'S FREAKIN STAR WARS. Let's be honest with ourselves, whether anyone likes scum or not we all WANT to bring order (or freedom) to the Galaxy).

SOME CLOSING MARKS. All of the new units are extremly interesting and funny to play. Personally I HATE the power of command cards, but IT's just a personal matter. In my opinion all this game needs to really even out the ods and drasticly increase lists variety is just giving empire more command cards and introducing more close quarter oriented maps (especially, that the new wave brings in lots of melee units)

OVER AND OUT!

45 minutes ago, DerBaer said:

The eRangers need a lot more skill to play than the eQuays. I would have no problem with that.

And for scum it's most likely, that the classic Rebel Care Package is just replaced by Jabba. But I'm fine with that too.

Hard not to agree with the first part but if that's the issue eventually a similarly easy to play and strong unit will eventually come out for Rebels and be an issue there.

Could you please describy why they need more skill ? As a guy who only played against them I always got a feeling, that they are actually way easier to play, but obviously i might have missed something...

8 minutes ago, Szycha said:

Could you please describy why they need more skill ? As a guy who only played against them I always got a feeling, that they are actually way easier to play, but obviously i might have missed something...

Making sure you have the 5 range on yours shots to get rerolls without getting out of position is not always easy.

Just now, TheUnsullied said:

Making sure you always have the 5 range on yours shots to get rerolls without getting out of position is not always easy.

Fair point. Actually I always try to overuse it, but never really thought about it as a rangers weakness

2 minutes ago, Szycha said:

Fair point. Actually I always try to overuse it, but never really thought about it as a rangers weakness

Yeah definitely not a weakness just something that you have to work around to use them to their full potential. Blue dice are swingy sometimes even with a reroll so you want to make sure you get it.

Also, I feel like Rangers need to be shielded more from attacks early on. I know it's rough to lose an eQuay, but the eRangers cost 12, so they're a considerable portion of your list. That power has to be preserved in order to stay competitive. Sacrificing a Ranger for an eQuay early on is not a good trade for the Rebel player, IMO (even though both net you four points), since the three-figure activation is a huge part of their strength. Also, the remaining Scum units can bolster their side better than the remaining Rebel units a lot of the time. A primary reason for that is bc Scum has way better command card synergy. But in Rebels, odds are that your 3 Rangers are your only hunters (I know some people like to run double eRangers bc of this), but that means that losing a Ranger early on could mean you're staring at Assassinate in your hand late game with no one to use it (as happened to me in my recent loss to the formidable @nickv2002 on Vassal). That's a huge loss.

Granted, that's not an issue if you are bringing Rangers into Scum, but it's something Rebel players have to worry about.

-ryanjamal

1 hour ago, ryanjamal said:

Losing a Ranger early on could mean you're staring at Assassinate in your hand late game with no one to use it (as happened to me in my recent loss to the formidable @nickv2002 on Vassal). That's a huge loss.

Haha, I too has Assassinate in hand with no way to use it since you killed my 3 Hunters: IG/Vinto/Onar.

My thoughts:

Take Initiative needs to be changed. There are many ways to do it. Whether it's allowing two consecutive deployments for the other guy, costing 2-3 points, removing, whatever. It needs to be changed.

Temporary Alliance is fun. It's the focus train that ruins whole games.

Your Command Card Stacking idea of limiting them to 1 per player per deployment is interesting. I'd love to try a few games that way. It would definitely change the value and composition of command decks. Instead of being pure damage/card draw, it would shift to a more balanced deck with more utility/defense.

My last tournament, my list was all unique/single: IG-88, Shyla, Onar, Vinto, Greedo, eJawa, C3PO. It wasn't the most efficient use of points (no eQuays for 7-14 points), but what it lacked there, it almost made up for in unpredictability. It's hard for the opponent to guess what you're going to do when every character can do different things and set up different combinations. It's also very responsive and adaptable. In that game, even with all of my units dying except for IG-88, my opponent only had 28/40 points from kills which made it hard to complete the game. We ran out of time.

Even though it's not the absolute most competitive option, it's infinitely more fun than running double eQuays/focusing/rinse/repeat. I'm going to try a Rebel unique team next - something like JKLuke, Lando, Jyn, Hera, Gideon, C3P0, Obi-wan (or Wookie Warriors). I really need Imperials to get some cheaper unique units before I can do that there. Right now, they have to poach Greedo/Vinto/Onar to get over 5 activations.

My main complaint about the state of the meta is that the next wave isn't out yet :-). Both Imperials and Rebels feel too limited to me in their list building, whereas Scum has multitudes of options. Mainly I play Rebels, of course, so that's my main frustration. Because of the power of the Hunter cards, and because I don't think there are enough different units that can compete at a high level, I feel sort of forced into take Rangers (and that's exacerbated by the new map--I just posted my thoughts on that in another thread). I have toyed around with non-Hunter Rebel lists and have done okay with them, and I was surprised by how well Jynn could work, but I keep coming back to the newest figures for competitive events. I think this will get a lot better whenever the next wave hits, but until then...

As to the limiting of command cards to one per activation, I don't really like that idea. I see how it could help, but something that broad would have too many negative effects. Vader's card, for instance, would be neutered of its chance to allow you to play Force Lightning or other cards. You can't play Urgency and Element of Surprise. Etc. But I do wish there was some way to prevent a 20 damage attack :-).

-ryanjamal

I have to disagree on Take Initiative.

There are a lot of Command Cards, that are overpowered. If I were part of the design team, I would solve that by adding more cards on that level. Nobody really seams to care, when a command card becomes obsolete ... no cries of doom then. Make as many cards on that level, that taking Take Initiative actually IS a decision.

I think, that Take Initiative, Negation and Comm Disruption balance the Bonus, that comes with going first on turn 2. Without Take Initiative: If you go last on turn 1 and first on turn 2 for sure, then you overextend without any chance, that this might go wrong. Then it is too good to have more activations then the opponent. This might lead to an activation creep. I'm not sure, if I'd want that.

I would make that many great cards, that it is impossible to have a weak starting hand. Then there will be balance.

2 hours ago, ryanjamal said:

Etc. But I do wish there was some way to prevent a 20 damage attack :-).

I feel like the obvious counter to strong command cards is Blaise, but we need a few more usable imperial figures before before he can really be effective again. HotE can't get here soon enough.

1 hour ago, Fightwookies said:

I feel like the obvious counter to strong command cards is Blaise, but we need a few more usable imperial figures before before he can really be effective again. HotE can't get here soon enough.

RIOT TROOPERS BABY!

I'm personally more excited for the sentry droids, but I hope they're both viable.

I want the at-dp. General sorin's stocks will be rising boys!

22 hours ago, ryanjamal said:

As to the limiting of command cards to one per activation, I don't really like that idea. I see how it could help, but something that broad would have too many negative effects. Vader's card, for instance, would be neutered of its chance to allow you to play Force Lightning or other cards. You can't play Urgency and Element of Surprise. Etc. But I do wish there was some way to prevent a 20 damage attack :-).

-ryanjamal

I think, that this could be easily solved by limiting use of command cards to 1 per attack. However, I am not sure that it's necesarry balance-wise (despite the fact, that I personally hate this part of current meta) because - as long as you have balanced list, loosing single figure (event a strong one) is not the kind of damage you can't recover from. This is because, the fact, that your enemy already consumed large part of his damage potential, allows you to make more liberal moves in your next activations. Also, we cannot ignore, that those CC-FUELED power attacks fulfill the role of direct counters to High Risk - High Reward Jedi Luke/IG-88 lists. If someone builds his list around the idea od getting those 2-3 chain activations of their champions and swiping half of the enemies list of the board before they can retaliate (which is as thematic as you can get it in SW universe ;D) he must take into consideration, that his enemy has the means of dealing with it.

Temporary alliance must be "you may incluide up to 2 rebels deployment cards in your army. This deployment cards must have at least one of the following traits: smuggler, spy or hunter."

No gideon or 3po here. If you want 3po you must spend 3in a eJawa. Perhaps in this errata way would be some variety without focus rebel team and of course no more igg88 and luke but yes to lando, han and this people who i can imagine doing scum things after all...

On 7/22/2017 at 9:00 PM, naitsirk said:

Temporary alliance must be "you may incluide up to 2 rebels deployment cards in your army. This deployment cards must have at least one of the following traits: smuggler, spy or hunter."

No gideon or 3po here. If you want 3po you must spend 3in a eJawa. Perhaps in this errata way would be some variety without focus rebel team and of course no more igg88 and luke but yes to lando, han and this people who i can imagine doing scum things after all...

I'd be cool with that. At least they'd get 1 support in Hera. And it's way more thematic.