There is some debate about whether Sunny's ability allows you to add a result after rolling 0 dice.

FFG has already defined that you can roll 0 dice and then activate upgrades like accuracy corrector. They have also ruled that a Target Lock allows you to reroll 0 dice. So Sunny's ability can trigger with 0 dice on a roll or reroll.

The part where the ability fails is that the result of rolling 0 dice is that 0 focus, 0 evade, and 0 blank results exist.

In the physical world, there is nothing to match, so Sunny's ability does not resolve.

In a theoretical world, it may be argued that there exists a "number" of focus, evade, and blank results (which is 0.) If all exist, then they are not the same and Sunny's ability also fails.

I am not sure of the logic supporting the idea that Sunny can add a result after rolling 0 dice, but it can be debated here if anyone feels it is valid.

6 minutes ago, USCGrad90 said:

There is some debate about whether Sunny's ability allows you to add a result after rolling 0 dice.

FFG has already defined that you can roll 0 dice and then activate upgrades like accuracy corrector. They have also ruled that a Target Lock allows you to reroll 0 dice. So Sunny's ability can trigger with 0 dice on a roll or reroll.

The part where the ability fails is that the result of rolling 0 dice is that 0 focus, 0 evade, and 0 blank results exist.

In the physical world, there is nothing to match, so Sunny's ability does not resolve.

In a theoretical world, it may be argued that there exists a "number" of focus, evade, and blank results (which is 0.) If all exist, then they are not the same and Sunny's ability also fails.

I am not sure of the logic supporting the idea that Sunny can add a result after rolling 0 dice, but it can be debated here if anyone feels it is valid.

This is the correct place for the debate. Thank you.

The argument, in brief, is this:

Logically, the statement that all members of a set A are equal to B is equivalent to the statement that no members of a set A are not equal to B. One cannot be true without the other, and if one is true then the other is as well.

So when Sunny rolls zero dice, all of her results can be said to be equal to anything that you'd like to say they are equal to (up to and including absurd results, such as "all of Sunny's green results are equal to hits," or "all of Sunny's green results are equal to the Prime Minister of England").

So if Sunny rolls zero green dice, then she can declare all of her dice equal to whatever that player would like, and then add one of the declared results. By the once per opportunity rule, while all of her dice are equal to evades, focuses, and blanks, she can only add one of those options before the window closes and the opportunity passes. She could attempt to add a nonsense result (Sunny adds one Prime Minister of England), but doing so would create an invalid game state and is thus forbidden by other rules.

30 minutes ago, Bascaria said:

This is the correct place for the debate. Thank you.

The argument, in brief, is this:

Logically, the statement that all members of a set A are equal to B is equivalent to the statement that no members of a set A are not equal to B. One cannot be true without the other, and if one is true then the other is as well.

So when Sunny rolls zero dice, all of her results can be said to be equal to anything that you'd like to say they are equal to (up to and including absurd results, such as "all of Sunny's green results are equal to hits," or "all of Sunny's green results are equal to the Prime Minister of England").

So if Sunny rolls zero green dice, then she can declare all of her dice equal to whatever that player would like, and then add one of the declared results. By the once per opportunity rule, while all of her dice are equal to evades, focuses, and blanks, she can only add one of those options before the window closes and the opportunity passes. She could attempt to add a nonsense result (Sunny adds one Prime Minister of England), but doing so would create an invalid game state and is thus forbidden by other rules.

So I can declare your results are all blank and counter the declaration of crits, evades or focus. If we disagree and call the TO over to settle the debate, he likely decides you do not have what you say you do.

So it seems the argument would waste game time for both players.

Also, if there is not evidence of a result, how do you declare it to be true?

I roll 2 attack dice and get a Hit Result on dice A, and a Focus Result on dice B.

Sunny's Ability checks my dice-results, and sees A as a Hit, and B as a Focus, so it does not trigger.

I spend a Focus Token to change the result of B from a Focus to a Hit.

I spend a Target Lock to Reroll dice, I choose to Reroll neither A nor B, resulting in a Reroll of zero, which is a valid option for a Target Lock.

I have Rerolled dice. Sunny's Ability checks my dice-results, and sees both A and B as a Hit.

Sunny's Ability continues, adding an additional Hit result.

Her ability only requires you to have "...the same result on each of your dice...", not to have "the same result on each of your dice you just rolled or rerolled."

1 hour ago, Innese said:

I roll 2 attack dice and get a Hit Result on dice A, and a Focus Result on dice B.

Sunny's Ability checks my dice-results, and sees A as a Hit, and B as a Focus, so it does not trigger.

I spend a Focus Token to change the result of B from a Focus to a Hit.

I spend a Target Lock to Reroll dice, I choose to Reroll neither A nor B, resulting in a Reroll of zero, which is a valid option for a Target Lock.

I have Rerolled dice. Sunny's Ability checks my dice-results, and sees both A and B as a Hit.

Sunny's Ability continues, adding an additional Hit result.

Her ability only requires you to have "...the same result on each of your dice...", not to have "the same result on each of your dice you just rolled or rerolled."

This I have no problem with because you have tangible results to match.

The question at hand would be a situation in which Sunny rolls zero dice and the player is declaring they can add a result of their choosing.

An Example would be Sunny with tractor tokens and crits that has agility effectively reduced to zero.

17 minutes ago, USCGrad90 said:

This I have no problem with because you have tangible results to match.

The question at hand would be a situation in which Sunny rolls zero dice and the player is declaring they can add a result of their choosing.

An Example would be Sunny with tractor tokens and crits that has agility effectively reduced to zero.

In this case I'd just say that you have no valid die-result (Blank, focus, evade) to match. Otherwise you could run into the issue of say, you have X dice with you at the table, roll 2 for Sunny and get hits... Then your opponent argues you don't get to add a hit because you have Nth dice with different results.. The Unrolled-Dice thing is certainly weird, but I don't think it works out to where rolling no dice allows you to add any result you'd like.

I see no justification beyond wishful thinking to say sunny could just pick a result and declare "all 0 dice are evades! So I get an evade."

No way, at best you've got zero of all three possible results which means no bonus. In reality I'm pretty sure the way this plays out is since you have no dice you have no results to check and Sunny does nothing.

5 hours ago, Innese said:

I roll 2 attack dice and get a Hit Result on dice A, and a Focus Result on dice B.

Sunny's Ability checks my dice-results, and sees A as a Hit, and B as a Focus, so it does not trigger.

I spend a Focus Token to change the result of B from a Focus to a Hit.

I spend a Target Lock to Reroll dice, I choose to Reroll neither A nor B, resulting in a Reroll of zero, which is a valid option for a Target Lock.

I have Rerolled dice. Sunny's Ability checks my dice-results, and sees both A and B as a Hit.

Sunny's Ability continues, adding an additional Hit result.

Her ability only requires you to have "...the same result on each of your dice...", not to have "the same result on each of your dice you just rolled or rerolled."

I do have a problem with this, because you have rerolled no dice. Messing with 0 being a tangible number is just a problem, and a wish for a thing to work, despite common sense. I am the first one to say, though, that common sense shouldn't be a reason of explaining how things should work, so i will try to explain my point of view.

If Sunny can trigger when rerolling 0 dice, she should also trigger when rolling 0 dice.

Is Sunny triggers when rolling 0 dice, you have the problems explained above by other people: what result do you add? You have all evades, but you also have all blanks. You even have all evades AND blanks, and they don't match, so Sunny can't trigger at all!

It's all nonsense.

But i understand it like this, as i already said in the other thread (thank the OP for bringing it here apart, btw): having the chance of rolling (or rerolling. Take them as the same, here) dice is not the same as rolling dice. Having the chance, by the FaQ, of choosing to roll 0 dice is not the same as rolling dice. You get the opportunity to roll dice. The number of that dice is 0 (because you hace 0 attack/agility, or because you chose 0 to reroll). But you roll no dice. You haven't picked and rolled any. Sunny shouldn't trigger there. Her trigger is "after you roll or reroll dice", not "after you had the opportunity to roll or reroll dice, even if you didn't".


Yeah, i can see (i have seen) people saying that if they wanted it to be like that, they would have written it like C3PO: "if you roll at least 1 dice...". Please. Like there aren't things that do the same and are worded differently. There are a number of abilities with 'must' on them when it's not neccesary by the rules. Targeting Synchronizer 2nd part does pretty much the same as Shara Bey and they decided to write the whole "a game effect that instructs you to spend a TL" thing.

29 minutes ago, Willy Jarque said:

If Sunny can trigger when rerolling 0 dice, she should also trigger when rolling 0 dice.

Not necessarily. Rolling 0 dice is an appropriate trigger for that part of the ability, sure, but that's different from saying that the effect works. You meet the trigger for her effect but you cannot resolve it because you cannot add a die with a matching result.

Because there is no matching result.
Because there is no dice.
Because you rolled no dice.
As you have rerolled no dice.

2 hours ago, Willy Jarque said:

Because there is no matching result.
Because there is no dice.
Because you rolled no dice.
As you have rerolled no dice.

I think you have to follow Sunny's card and simply answer questions:

"...after you roll or reroll dice..."

Both cases satisfy this, because FFG has established that you can roll and reroll 0 dice in cases with Accuracy Corrector and Target Lock.

"...if you have the same result on each of your dice..."

In the TL case, there would be dice existing that have matching results that can be verified. Based on FFG's application of the rules, it doesn't matter how they got there, they are there and satisfy what the card requires, so Sunny can add the result.

In the case of rolling 0 dice, there are no existing dice in play with results on them. Just because somebody declares something to be the case, does not make it so. It must be agreeable by both players and verifiable by an independent person, like the TO.

Well, I'm not answering again with an explanation i have made before.

3 hours ago, InquisitorM said:

You meet the trigger for her effect but you cannot resolve it because you cannot add a die with a matching result.

I'm not seeing anything on the card that requires you to add a result, though. Just that all your dice have to have the same value after a roll or reroll.

1 hour ago, __underscore__ said:

I'm not seeing anything on the card that requires you to add a result, though. Just that all your dice have to have the same value after a roll or reroll.

Quote

Once per round, after you roll or reroll dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice , you may add 1 matching result.

You don't have to add the die, but part of the trigger is having the same result on all of your dice. With no dice, you do not have a valid gamestate when the timing window happens to activate the ability. This is no different to being unable to activate Gunner if you hit.

15 minutes ago, InquisitorM said:

You don't have to add the die, but part of the trigger is having the same result on all of your dice. With no dice, you do not have a valid gamestate when the timing window happens to activate the ability. This is no different to being unable to activate Gunner if you hit.

But I thought that this was in a case where you had dice already in the pool? e.g. from Accuracy Corrector or whatever. You have the result you want, now you just need to fulfil the 'roll or reroll' requirement.

As another example: You have Predator on board somehow and you roll two blanks on your attack. You reroll one of the dice into a hit. Is your result a single hit (becoming two via his ability) or hit/blank (which doesn't activate his ability)? I feel like the result is all the dice in the pool after the reroll, not the dice you rerolled.

18 minutes ago, __underscore__ said:

But I thought that this was in a case where you had dice already in the pool? e.g. from Accuracy Corrector or whatever. You have the result you want, now you just need to fulfil the 'roll or reroll' requirement.

As another example: You have Predator on board somehow and you roll two blanks on your attack. You reroll one of the dice into a hit. Is your result a single hit (becoming two via his ability) or hit/blank (which doesn't activate his ability)? I feel like the result is all the dice in the pool after the reroll, not the dice you rerolled.

No, I was confused on this before too. The argument is first, when you have no dice on the table, at all. So Sunny has been tractor beamed to hell and back, and then is shot, the player has no dice to roll on defense. After the opportunity to roll has occurred, do her results match? Some people argue that a set of no dice on the table are matching. But this as absurd, if you have an empty set, you have no data to compare so can't have equal variables.

The second situation where Sunny has rolled 2 dice on attack, and the results are a hit and a focus. Check her ability, do they match? no. Then the player modifys the results with a focus token to change the them both to hits. THEN spends a Target lock to performs a reroll, but chooses 0 dice to reroll. After the reroll they check the facings of the dice, do they match? yes, so Sunny adds a 3rd hit result to the pool.

The final argument is that some people say that if you can't get a bonus die in the first case then you can't have one in the second case. Because in both cases you aren't physically picking up dice and rolling them then clearly you have to agree that either they both work or neither do. Ignoring basic logic that the physical action of rolling dice is not what is causing the problem it is the game state and understanding of the rules which makes the first scenario impossible while the second is perfectly logical.

14 minutes ago, xbeaker said:

No, I was confused on this before too. The argument is first, when you have no dice on the table, at all.

Ahh, I must've mixed the two Sunny threads up. Carry on then!

7 hours ago, Willy Jarque said:

Targeting Synchronizer 2nd part does pretty much the same as Shara Bey and they decided to write the whole "a game effect that instructs you to spend a TL" thing.

This is not the thread but at the same time, no, just no it does not do the same thing at all. Because there is thing like Omega Leader and Advanced Targeting Computer on the Empire side that would be WAY TOO POWERFULL with the Shara Bey wording.

15 hours ago, USCGrad90 said:

So I can declare your results are all blank and counter the declaration of crits, evades or focus. If we disagree and call the TO over to settle the debate, he likely decides you do not have what you say you do.

So it seems the argument would waste game time for both players.

Also, if there is not evidence of a result, how do you declare it to be true?

Everyone below seems to be just making variations on these two arguments, so I'll address your positing of it since you started the thread. If anyone has a further argument, I'll be happy to address that.

First, I want to say that I agree that my argument is some pedantic nonsense that flies in the face of common sense. However, X-Wing is a rules system filled with pedantic nonsense. We're not looking for a common sense reading, but rather a strict reading of what the words on the cards say. The Gunner/IG combo is based around pedantic nonsense. Tactician triggering on a K-Wing attacking a ship at range 1 out of arc, but range 2 in arc is pedantic nonsense. Rerolling zero dice is still rerolling dice is pedantic nonsense. We can disagree about the levels of pedantry or nonsense, but I would first posit that something disobeying a "simple" understanding of words does not mean it is not what the words say. Any (good) game system has its own internal logic, and so we are only looking for consistency within that logic.

OK, so the two arguments --

The first one is, and forgive me if I am misstating this: You have rolled zero dice. You have no dice to match. At best you get to duplicate a null result.

So again, let's look at what the actual words of Sunny Bounder's card are:

Quote

Once per round, after you roll or reroll dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result.

She (and further pedantic side note, Sunny is a woman) doesn't say "if all your dice show the same result" or "if each of your dice is the same as every other." She just says if you have the same result on each of your dice. Thus, her dice don't need to "show" anything. There is no check for a physical result. You can satisfy this with zero dice. With her zero dice she has honestly satisfied the condition of "hav[ing] the same result on each of [her] dice."

The question then becomes what does she match? One argument says that each of her dice shows nothing, and so she gets nothing. However, while this is true, it is not the only thing which is true. It is also trivially true that every single die that Sunny has rolled shows an evade result. She has, of course, rolled no dice, and thus has no evade results, but it is true that she has an evade result on each of her zero dice. As such she should be allowed to add an evade.

Brief tangent to again acknowledge the absurdity of this situation. Yes, it flies in the face of common sense to be talking about matching zero dice and zero dice equaling anything, but we aren't trying to read this with common sense. We are trying to read this within the framework of the X-Wing ruleset, which has clearly established on multiple occasions that zero dice is a valid number of dice for any game effect which does not explicitly disallow it.

The second argument, then is: OK, but even if you are allowed to match your zero dice to something then how do you match it to a good result when your opponent can just say "no, those are all equal to a bad result, or a nonsense result"?

For this one we look at the once per opportunity rule. Each ability can only resolve once per opportunity. Obviously, if Sunny has two hits, she can't just keep triggering her ability to add an infinite number of hits. The same thing is true here. If Sunny rolls no green dice, then she has an opportunity to trigger her ability to add one evade. She also has an opportunity to trigger it to add one blank, or one eyeball, or one *null*, or one crit, or one [insert whatever nonsense you want here since her dice are all equal to anything]. However, she can only do one of those things because the ability can only trigger once. When there are multiple effects that could all resolve in the same window and they are all controlled by the same player, then that player gets to choose the order they trigger in. So the Sunny player can choose to trigger her ability to add an evade first, and then the window is closed so nothing else can be added. Her opponent declaring that her dice all also match blanks has no effect.

13 minutes ago, Bascaria said:

The question then becomes what does she match? One argument says that each of her dice shows nothing, and so she gets nothing. However, while this is true, it is not the only thing which is true. It is also trivially true that every single die that Sunny has rolled shows an evade result. She has, of course, rolled no dice, and thus has no evade results, but it is true that she has an evade result on each of her zero dice. As such she should be allowed to add an evade.

The problem with this argument (besides the logical difficulties of counting 0 of something) is that there is no justification for saying that you can arbitrarily pick evade. Sunny's ability does not anywhere say that you get to make a choice. It just says if all her results match you can add one. While yes to a certain way of looking at it "all her 0 dice show an evade" but "all her 0 dice" also show bank and focus as well. The only thing you get to decide is whether her ability triggers or not. You could for instance choose to forgo it and take a damage so as not to trigger a gunner. WHAT you get to add is determined by the dice results. If you have no results to reference you can't determine what to add. There is no rules justification that would allow you to pick one.

On top of that, her dice are showing 0 of everything, which I would argue would essentially be the same result as if you had rolled 1 of each result which obviously means that she can't trigger her ability.

39 minutes ago, Bascaria said:

When there are multiple effects that could all resolve in the same window and they are all controlled by the same player, then that player gets to choose the order they trigger in. So the Sunny player can choose to trigger her ability to add an evade first, and then the window is closed so nothing else can be added. Her opponent declaring that her dice all also match blanks has no effect.

Actually - if you declare you have an evade result and I dispute that to the point it is not resolved, we call over a Mashal or Judge to resolve the dispute.

I would wager it would be ruled to be a non-result and not allowed.

ALSO - The definition of "each" is "being one of two or more distinct individuals." Since you do not have at least 1 die, there is no "each" and thus zero dice can not satisfy the requirement needed to be able to add 1 matching result.

42 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

The problem with this argument (besides the logical difficulties of counting 0 of something) is that there is no justification for saying that you can arbitrarily pick evade. Sunny's ability does not anywhere say that you get to make a choice. It just says if all her results match you can add one. While yes to a certain way of looking at it "all her 0 dice show an evade" but "all her 0 dice" also show bank and focus as well. The only thing you get to decide is whether her ability triggers or not. You could for instance choose to forgo it and take a damage so as not to trigger a gunner. WHAT you get to add is determined by the dice results. If you have no results to reference you can't determine what to add. There is no rules justification that would allow you to pick one.

On top of that, her dice are showing 0 of everything, which I would argue would essentially be the same result as if you had rolled 1 of each result which obviously means that she can't trigger her ability.

I'm not saying you can arbitrarily pick evade. I'm saying that you actually have to pick everything , but that you pick those things individually. Then, as the controlling player, you get to pick which order the ability to add an evade, add a blank, and add an eyeball resolve in. Once one has been resolved then the others can no longer resolve.

35 minutes ago, USCGrad90 said:

Actually - if you declare you have an evade result and I dispute that to the point it is not resolved, we call over a Mashal or Judge to resolve the dispute.

I would wager it would be ruled to be a non-result and not allowed.

ALSO - The definition of "each" is "being one of two or more distinct individuals." Since you do not have at least 1 die, there is no "each" and thus zero dice can not satisfy the requirement needed to be able to add 1 matching result.

Yes, but to say that "but really this comes down to the TO" kind of removes the point of the discussion, doesn't it? And you can wager whatever you'd like, it still, and again, has no bearing on the discussion. Of course a TO would need to be called for this, but the whole point of the rules forum is to try and suss out these idiotic situations ahead of time.

ALSO, appealing to a random (uncited) online dictionary doesn't really carry much weight. Some Google suggests that you are getting this from Merriam-Webster, a fine dictionary, however, that is also the definition for the adjective each, while Sunny Bounder is using the pronoun each. Merriam Webster doesn't really help us out with a definition for the pronoun, offering only the circular "each one." Dictionary.com offers us a slightly more helpful "every one individually" which has no requirement for number. However, I am more than willing to concede that I cherry picked that definition. Oxforddictionaries.com suggests "Used to refer to every one of two or more people or things, regarded and identified separately."

I would suggest, though, that the phrase "one of two or more" is meant more in a descriptive sense to demonstrate the common usage of the term rather than a prescriptive one, and even if it is meant prescriptively, that prescription cannot be extended to the rules of X-Wing. If "each" requires two or more individuals, then Sunny Bounder also wouldn't work with only one die!

Still, though, appealing to any dictionary isn't really going to get us anywhere. Instead, I would appeal to logical/mathematical language, which does not have any restriction on number placed on each.

1 hour ago, Bascaria said:

I'm not saying you can arbitrarily pick evade. I'm saying that you actually have to pick everything , but that you pick those things individually.

Instead, I would appeal to logical/mathematical language, which does not have any restriction on number placed on each.

How do you justify picking EVERYTHING, but doing so individually? The card is based on a comparison of ALL results and would be compared collectively. The once per opportunity rule is the opportunity to determine if all of the results from the rolled dice are the same at that point in the game.

Appealing to logic and mathematical language of theory isn't getting this anywhere when the practical evidence says there are NO results to be compared to with physical dice. The Rules Reference states that results are "on" the attack/defense dice and that a blank result does not "display" an icon. To have a result you must determine what is displayed and with 0 dice rolled, there are no displayed results. Dice are a physical component of the game and thus results on the dice must be physically displayed.

10 minutes ago, USCGrad90 said:

How do you justify picking EVERYTHING, but doing so individually? The card is based on a comparison of ALL results and would be compared collectively.

Appealing to logic and mathematical language of theory isn't getting this anywhere when the practical evidence says there are NO results to be compared to with physical dice. The Rules Reference states that results are "on" the attack/defense dice and that a blank result does not "display" an icon. To have a result you must determine what is displayed and with 0 dice rolled, there are no displayed results. Dice are a physical component of the game and thus results on the dice must be physically displayed.

I agree with you on all points, but I disagree with your final conclusion that you cannot consider zero results. Let me try again to explain how I am parsing the card.

Sunny Bounder: "Once per round, after you roll or reroll dice, if you have the same result on each of your dice, you may add 1 matching result."

Once per round -- I think we both agree on how to read this.

after you roll or reroll dice -- I believe we are also in agreement that rolling zero dice is still rolling dice, so this is, at the very least, a valid window to trigger Sunny

if you have the same result on each of your dice -- I'm not sure if I've convinced you of my argument here or not, but to briefly restate - zero dice trivially show the same result and that result can be trivially equal to whatever you'd like.

you may add 1 matching result -- here is where I think our difference is. I believe you are reading this as "you may add 1 result that matches the dice you have rolled" where "matching" refers back to "dice". Gramatically, though "matching" has to refer back to the word "result" not "dice." What you are matching isn't the result on your dice, but rather the result which you determined in the previous clause was the result on each of your dice. Am I splitting hairs? Yes. However, this is a very important distinction that matters only in this extremely narrow situation, because what it means is that you don't have to ever attempt to match non-existent dice. Instead, you determine that each of your zero dice shows an evade (trivially true), and then you match that abstract concept of evade, not the evade which nebulously does or does not exist on your dice that aren't there.

44 minutes ago, Bascaria said:

if you have the same result on each of your dice -- I'm not sure if I've convinced you of my argument here or not, but to briefly restate - zero dice trivially show the same result and that result can be trivially equal to whatever you'd like .

This is the point where we disagree. Rolling Zero dice does not produce a valid result. You cannot arbitrarily decide that the result is whatever you'd like.

The result is stated to be "ON" your dice. Results defined in the rules are Hit, Crit, Focus, Evade, or Blank, depending on whether the dice are attack or defense dice. The result is defined in the Rule Reference to be what is displayed on the dice. If nothing is displayed, no result exists. If there is an argument that there is a result, then it is a NULL result, which is not a valid result for the game or the effect that is considered.

If no valid result exists, then there is no valid result to match and adding a matching valid result does not happen.