I want to gather the background we have so far on what the deal is with the Phoenix and meishodo. I more or less dropped out of the game around the time of the Y2K bug but I recall meishodo as an, in my opinion underpowered, option in the 1rst ed rpg for unicorn shugenja that gave up flexibility and control for speed (IIRC).

Is the idea that the Phoenix suspect (perhaps with reason) that the difficulty with the kami (as shown in the recent fiction) may be a result of shugenja in the empire using amulet magic and thereby messing things up?

What have we been told so far, and where can I read it?

Meishodo on the old-lore wiki.

We have basically nothing on it in the new lore.

Just a side note, but I find it kinda ironic that the "Phoenix thinks the Unicorn are not right spiritually" plot is in the game again. IIRC, this was their last official storyline in Old5R, so they would pick up right where they left off .

24 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Just a side note, but I find it kinda ironic that the "Phoenix thinks the Unicorn are not right spiritually" plot is in the game again. IIRC, this was their last official storyline in Old5R, so they would pick up right where they left off .

Not really- it's a much better-conceived conflict this time. Edits and revisions often are.

The old version was, "the Unicorn- specifically the Moto- have a nasty curse tied to their bloodline that literally nobody noticed until just now and it's so serious the Phoenix have to blabber it all over the Empire, even though Shinjo-Kami chose to be reborn into the Moto, meaning the Unicorn Clan's Kami chose to join a cursed bloodline." This was after the initial rollout (and a clan letter that, as per some back-channel chatter post-IP sale was actually written out of house because the story team was depleted at that point) which stated that "gaijin blood renders one susceptible to spiritual corruption," which was an utter non-starter.

So the Phoenix playerbase were being asked to get fired up about a war that to just about any English-literate modern reader, they deserved to lose. Even some pretty solid damage control by the likes of Robert Denton couldn't really make up for the botched "gaijin blood" rollout and a few basic incoherencies in the narrative of the problem (such as the fact that while the curse was verified as real, nobody could articulate why it mattered, and the actions of characters in the fiction indicated that many of the samurai of Rokugan were prepared to just ignore it).

If the Phoenix won (which they were apparently slated to do because they were long overdue to be right about something of consequence, having had their credibility written into the ground during the tussles with the Dragon and the Mantis), they would validate the grotesque in-setting racism of Rokugan to a degree, while making it plain that the Unicorn had to follow their guidance if they wanted anyone to come to their tea parties ever again or something.

The new version is, "the elemental kami are acting up, and we think that meishodo crap you guys brought back in your much-more-recent-than-in-old-canon return to Rokugan may be why." The Unicorn can lose this war without losing their identity or justifying the appalling in-setting racism of Rokugan. The Phoenix can lose this war without having made a fuss over something that most of the Empire seems to have no stake in and which has not been "around this whole time, you just never noticed." Both sides have room to be right or wrong without gutting their core identity.

It also lets FFG use all the purchased art assets of the Unicorn curbstomping the Phoenix which adorned many a card in the waning days of the CCG (seriously, the Phoneix were NEVER shown having the upper hand in card art- we were told they did this or that in flavor texts, but we never SAW it), gives the Unicorn and Phoenix both something to do that actually involves another clan,

20 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

The old version was, "the Unicorn- specifically the Moto- have a nasty curse tied to their bloodline that literally nobody noticed until just now and it's so serious the Phoenix have to blabber it all over the Empire, even though Shinjo-Kami chose to be reborn into the Moto, meaning the Unicorn Clan's Kami chose to join a cursed bloodline."

I always thought that this was (would have been) about the Lords of Death being the crap jerks they always had been and blowing their end of the deal with the Moto Curse, with the epic plot-twist of Naalesh not truly being Shinjo's reincarnation. With the whole conflict only offering a reason to the Moto to go full Dark Moto and join the Obsidian Empire if the players so desire. Oh, and of course, paving the way for the Unicorn Civil War between the Shinjo and the Moto so that the Shinjo can go back being the boss family.

1 hour ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Shinjo-Kami chose to be reborn into the Moto, meaning the Unicorn Clan's Kami chose to join a cursed bloodline

That was always an amusing implication of that story for me, as it seemed to show the arrogance of the Isawa well. That storyline did annoy me, though. Also, I thought the Isawa were also supposed to have been descended from foreigners, which seemed rather hypocritical.

If Meishodo is similar to the previous canon, this storyline also has a reasonable chance of ending with the Phoenix being slightly in the right, which would be good. I certainly prefer this storyline to the previous one, although I'm not confident it will be very important ito the rest of the empire.

How recently did the Unicorn return in the new canon, anyway?

42 minutes ago, Metalrift said:

How recently did the Unicorn return in the new canon, anyway?

Maybe they'll tell us in the Unicorn fiction.

In the old story, the return of the Ki-Rin was a little over 300 years before the active storyline begins.

5 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

All of this!

I remember it fondly, it went from "The moto might still have the lingering curse from the Death Gods and its a threat that needs to be kurbed" which people could get behind... but then went to "The moto BLOOD is spiritually weaker then our ubermensch rokugani blood and we need to control their breeding and all contact with the empire".

It made the phoenix go from, "seeking to end a curse and stem its, unknown until now, influence spreading" to actively stating that a race was spiritually inferior to the point that breeding with them was a threat to the spiritual soul of the empire itself.

It made the phoenix a bad guy by modern standards, but in setting it was completely correct, moto blood WAS spiritually afflicted by a curse that could be passed genetically. Basically it made the phoenix despicable in the eyes of the players, even their own diehard fans, while also basically making the whole debacle an issue of race... which is as touchy a topic as you can get these days... but NOT a case where we watch the racial discrimination overcome but instead where it is written to PROVE the racist side correct.

There is a reason the official Winter Court delegation tried to completely 180 on their clan's stance.

It was a headache for everyone involved that even with the story writers giving a hell of an attempt to soften the impact, it was still a war that phoenix players, even though they had never had their faction win a war, didn't want the first win to be like that. It was a lose/lose that never felt like it should have happened in the first place...

8 hours ago, TheItsyBitsySpider said:

It made the phoenix a bad guy by modern standards, but in setting it was completely correct, moto blood WAS spiritually afflicted by a curse that could be passed genetically. Basically it made the phoenix despicable in the eyes of the players, even their own diehard fans, while also basically making the whole debacle an issue of race... which is as touchy a topic as you can get these days... but NOT a case where we watch the racial discrimination overcome but instead where it is written to PROVE the racist side correct.

I say this with all due sensitivity, as someone who has never truly felt himself on the receiving end of racism and can only imagine how it must feel. But for this L5Reader, one of the cornerstone tenets of the setting lies in how there is a deliberate dissonance between the customs, values and beliefs of the setting's major factions, and those of the real-world audience. Indeed, if Rokugan were supposed to be supplicant to our modern sensibilities, there should not be a caste system as such at all, and instead the samurai class should be more akin to an occupational role than a social stratum.

As a sidenote, my choice of having my RP persona be an Ide was not made to avoid this controversial IP quirk, but to embrace it in a way that reconciles Rokugan's beliefs with my own. As a Unicorn, I express compassion and respect to those of the lower castes and see that their needs are not trampled by the whims of the privileged. As an Ide Ambassador, I seek to crush the racism that is leveled against my clan.

Yeah, see, this story started rolling out right as the Ferguson mess was all over the news...

And again, asking the fans of team "Mystical Pacifism, All Life Has Some Value," to embrace being... worse than everyone else (I'll see if I can dig up that clan letter, it's... something else) was... a serious non-starter.

Ah, here we go. The Clan Letter That Scuttled a Thousand Hopes...

Quote

To my brothers and sisters of the Phoenix,

We are at war. Not a war against a powerful army, not a war against foreign invaders – a war for the souls of Rokugan.

Our discoveries have shown us that true blooded Rokugani, of descent directly from the Kami themselves, are spiritually pure at birth and hold within their soul a natural resistance to spiritual and physical corruption. In light of recent events, being amongst the weak and fallen, I have seen, my brothers and sisters, the truth in our research.

But there are many who walk amongst us each and every day, many who seem innocent of heart and pure of soul, who would say they are devoted to our Divine Empress. But they are not. They may believe themselves to be, but we know this to be a lie. An insidious lie that rests in the root of their very being. Mixed blood such as that possessed by the Moto family and other members within the Unicorn have been shown and proven to be susceptible to corruption and more easily influenced than those of pure Rokugan lineage. They are on the front lines, and while many of their Clans actions have been for the good of Rokugan, we know now that we cannot idly stand by and allow those of mixed descent to continue to hold positions of power and to wield influence in our great Empire.

Of all the Clans, the Phoenix know best what makes one pure or weak of soul and the folly of believing in the good of a man’s word when his soul proves unable to uphold those laws. We must stand against this quiet but dangerous infection in the hills and roads and cities of our empire. We must stand strong on the traditions that we’ve held for over a thousand years. We must spread this knowledge to the other clans, tell them of the dangers of being mixed blood. They must know – that families like the Moto, the Unicorn, and even the Mantis are dangerous to Rokugan’s spiritual survival moving forward, and that they must be isolated, separated, and carefully watched. Their spirits will eventually crumble. It is only a matter of time.

Now, there are many within our number who may question the need for this crusade, question the need for such extreme measures of ostracism. Our champion, noble and wise as she is, even questioned the need for such action. But I have forced her to see the light, and as you have seen, she tells the other clans that we are right. She tells them, on behalf of the Council, that the traditional structure and principles which Seiken embodies are the same values that the Phoenix hold dear and wish to protect. And that means we must purge the unclean from our soil, from our air, and from our lands.

So listen to your Champion, brothers and sisters! Listen to your Council! You may question our methods or the need for these actions, but you, like the rest of Rokugan will understand in time. We will rise from the quiet corners to bring about the truth to Rokugan, to tell them of the creeping evil that exists within the hearts and souls of those who have not upheld the traditions of our founders and have sought to dilute their heritage with those who are weak of soul and frail of mind. We will rise, like the great bird from which we take our name! We will shout to the corners of the world until all know to shun the unclean, the walking dangers waiting to corrupt and further dilute the pure and noble souls of Rokugan!

Isawa Tsumaro, Master of Air

Upon seeing this, I can confirm, as a player in the Winter Court 4 Phoenix delegation, that we were all-in for torpedoing the leadership that would write something like this. We didn't have ONE player committed to the party line.

What if it turned out the Celestial Heavens, like the Kami themselves, were not infallible and just as prone to error as the humans?

2 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

What if it turned out the Celestial Heavens, like the Kami themselves, were not infallible and just as prone to error as the humans?

Provided that the whole Emerald Empire is built on the "fact" that they indeed are, there would be quite a mess if it turned out that they aren't.

3 hours ago, AtoMaki said:

Provided that the whole Emerald Empire is built on the "fact" that they indeed are, there would be quite a mess if it turned out that they aren't.

Granted. Still.

7 hours ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Ah, here we go. The Clan Letter That Scuttled a Thousand Hopes...

Wow .

Yeah, I . . . well, let me put it this way. If I'd been on the AEG Story Team and they'd handed me that plot, I would have quit rather than write it.

2 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Wow .

Yeah, I . . . well, let me put it this way. If I'd been on the AEG Story Team and they'd handed me that plot, I would have quit rather than write it.

I think it is salvageable. It just needs the Isawa admit that their blood isn't super-strong/pure either, because that quality is reserved for the true descendants of the Kami and other special snowflake people, but as a Kaiu would say: every chain is as strong as its weakest link... so the Moto has to go. Especially in that environment (with the Spider being around and Lord of Jigoku Daigotsu being a thing) it would have been reasonable to call for a stricter "quality control" when it comes to purity. This could have been even presented as the Phoenix trying to undermine the Spider through the Unicorn/Moto and reverse-psychology the Unicorn into being better buddies with the Phoenix.

Finesse and subtlety could save this plot, I'm tellin' ya.

4 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Wow .

Yeah, I . . . well, let me put it this way. If I'd been on the AEG Story Team and they'd handed me that plot, I would have quit rather than write it.

As I mentioned before, this particular clan letter was not evidently written in-house, since at the time the story team was down to Shawn and Spooky- and Fred Wan apparently didn't have time to edit or vet it. But once released into the wild, damage done.

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

I think it is salvageable. It just needs the Isawa admit that their blood isn't super-strong/pure either, because that quality is reserved for the true descendants of the Kami and other special snowflake people, but as a Kaiu would say: every chain is as strong as its weakest link... so the Moto has to go. Especially in that environment (with the Spider being around and Lord of Jigoku Daigotsu being a thing) it would have been reasonable to call for a stricter "quality control" when it comes to purity. This could have been even presented as the Phoenix trying to undermine the Spider through the Unicorn/Moto and reverse-psychology the Unicorn into being better buddies with the Phoenix.

Taking potshots at the bloodline of Shinjo reincarnated (yes yes, you have your pet theory that she wasn't really Naleesh- we have ample word of god and situational card art and flavor text that says she was- there's a possibility she was only HALF of Shinjo-Kami, but...) as a means of bringing the Unicorn closer would have been absurdly tone-deaf.

Even for the Phoenix as written in the post-Iweko era.

This plot was clearly meant to give each clan (neither of which had much going on in the post-Destroyer War environment- the Unicorn buddied up with the Lion to curbstomp Legulus' feaudotai, and the Phoenix as a clan had basically done nothing at all except lose the War of the Twins during the time skip since about the Khan's March) a "dance partner" for the pre-Onyx dustup- the Lion were fighting the Scorpion, the Crab were fighting the Spider, the Crane had JUST fought the Mantis, the Dragon were... doing whatever the hell they did for most of the Iweko era.

A scrap with the Dragon over the broken betrothal between Naleesh and Shikei would have made more sense (and been easier to root for either side), but I think it was simply decided that the Phoenix were overdue to do A Thing.

Quote

Finesse and subtlety could save this plot, I'm tellin' ya.

Nothing could have saved this plot once its rollout began with Isawa Kasei's flavor text. Believe, me, Denton tried- " Blood of Heaven, Blood of Earth" really does its best to salvage the mess, but... too many inherent contradictions and blunders underpin the basic premise.

Especially since the Phoenix were (once again, word of god, since a karmic burden/curse that nobody has noticed until now is REALLY hard to show in a meaningful way) correct.

22 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Taking potshots at the bloodline of Shinjo reincarnated (yes yes, you have your pet theory that she wasn't really Naleesh- we have ample word of god and situational card art and flavor text that says she was- there's a possibility she was only HALF of Shinjo-Kami, but...) as a means of bringing the Unicorn closer would have been absurdly tone-deaf.

This is really up to presentation and how the story goes. If the whole reincarnation deal is about Shinjo trying (and probably failing) to save the Moto then the Phoenix unwittingly(?) crapping into her plan is a sub-plot all by itself. Especially if you consider that the Phoenix might have a thing or two against Shinjo herself (like her captivity by the Lying Darkness) and consequently the whole Shinjo-reincarnated-as-a-Moto might not come off as a random thing from their part (like, the Kami with the weakest spiritual purity would obviously reincarnate into the family with the weakest spiritual purity). You just gotta build up the story, not go full "We war naow!" right after the accusation.

31 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Nothing could have saved this plot once its rollout began with Isawa Kasei's flavor text. Believe, me, Denton tried- "Blood of Heaven, Blood of Earth" really does its best to salvage the mess, but... too many inherent contradictions and blunders underpin the basic premise.

Well, I was thinking more along the line of writing a smart story. The base material is there, one can spin a pretty darn complex and multi-layered plot from this spiritual impurity thing, complete with multiple inter/intra-faction agendas and spiritual shenanigans.

6 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Well, I was thinking more along the line of writing a smart story. The base material is there, one can spin a pretty darn complex and multi-layered plot from this spiritual impurity thing, complete with multiple inter/intra-faction agendas and spiritual shenanigans.

Eh, tying it to "blood purity" was never going to fly.

Which is why I like the Meishodo conflict- it's a thing the Unicorn do , not a comment on who they are by birth.

Yes, the setting has an awful caste system. It also carefully pokes holes in and lampshades the idiocy of it ("There are no peasant shugenja! Nope! They're just misplaced samurai!"). The Phoenix being right about the blood of the Moto (or gaijin) being actually spiritually impure? Nope. Negative, ghost rider.

5 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Which is why I like the Meishodo conflict- it's a thing the Unicorn do , not a comment on who they are by birth.

Could it not be argued that the Meishodo practice's gaijin origins are at the root of the Phoenix's suspicion of it? That it came from a foreign people, and is therefore potentially impure?

Just now, Ide Yoshiya said:

Could it not be argued that the Meishodo practice's gaijin origins are at the root of the Phoenix's suspicion of it?

Oh, absolutely- but that doesn't mean that non-Rokugani are spiritually weaker by birth, you know? It's more like, "the kami in this land are used to a certain way of doing things and you ARE DOING IT WROOOOOOOOONG! Now they're upset! CURSE YOUUUUUUUU!"

4 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

Oh, absolutely- but that doesn't mean that non-Rokugani are spiritually weaker by birth, you know? It's more like, "the kami in this land are used to a certain way of doing things and you ARE DOING IT WROOOOOOOOONG! Now they're upset! CURSE YOUUUUUUUU!"

But couldn't that be why non-Rokugani are spiritually weaker? The spiritual forces at play in Rokugan work differently than they do in the part of the world where Gaijin X originates from, thereby making Gaijin X less compatible with its framework.

2 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

But couldn't that be why non-Rokugani are spiritually weaker? The spiritual forces at play in Rokugan work differently than they do in the part of the world where Gaijin X originates from, thereby making Gaijin X less compatible with its framework.

I'd say it's more like, "things don't work here they way they do out there."

It'd be about adaptation to new contexts (which the Unicorn are GREAT at), not, "you're weak and pathetic."

21 minutes ago, Shiba Gunichi said:

I'd say it's more like, "things don't work here they way they do out there."

It'd be about adaptation to new contexts (which the Unicorn are GREAT at), not, "you're weak and pathetic."

I find it's an interesting concept to speculate on, either way. Though it is, of course, "purely" hypothetical given that the continuity in question has been dropped, and the team in charge of the new one has already proven themselves to be more pro-inclusivity than their predecessors...

...and also, perhaps more importantly, I've been quite a bit more accepting of anti-gaijin sentiments than an Ide Ambassador probably ought to be.