Simple question: Is it improper for a samurai to touch someone else's body if there are gloves, handwraps or clothing preventing direct contact between each other's skin?

8 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Simple question: Is it improper for a samurai to touch someone else's body if there are gloves, handwraps or clothing preventing direct contact between each other's skin?

Basically yes

casual touching has the same place in society as public displays of emotion..something best kept private.

Rolugani bow,not shake hands ?

As far as I'm concerned, it is not improper, it is indiscreet. You aren't breaching etiquette with touching but give the touched person a reason to feel embarrassed. It is kinda like using -chan/-kun to show affection: not something people will get pissed at but it will make the recipient blush awkwardly.

Think of it this way: if you're from a culture that doesn't use kissing as a casual way to say "hello," you're going to feel awkward if someone does that to you, or if you see two people who aren't family greeting each other in that fashion. Same thing for Rokugani with hugging, shaking hands, touching people on the arm or shoulder while talking to them, etc. It isn't OH MY SWEET KAMI WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, it's just . . . awkward and a little embarrassing.

But of course there are situations in which it's totally okay. Bushi, for example, undoubtedly wind up in a lot of physical contact during their training.

Just wearing a glove does not allow you to put your hand on someone. Touching a person isn't like touching a dead body, where the act of touching is bad. It's more etiquette, and more intricate. Imagine everyone has a real personal space bubble. You don't shake hands to show you are unarmed, you simply stay a reasonable distance and bow. You may specifically draw your saya from your obi and place it conspicuously nearby so that people know you have disarmed yourself, but no one else should come between you and the sword unless there is a specific sword bearer caring for them all. You certainly don't search people.

I think an important question to you is "why is someone touching someone else?" Is this about comfort? familiarity? displays of affection? aggression? Why someone would touch another person is important. If I am being aggressive, and trying to make you uncomfortable I may touch you - and it wouldn't matter if it was skin to skin contact or otherwise, as the act of imposing on your person is the same. It may be made more intimidating to touch skin compared to touching clothing, but any touch can still be turned into an assault. If it is about reassurance, or familiarity than you would likely not touch skin because you're already going a bit far just to touch someone. You may simply touch their sleeve, but it would be more in character of Rokugan to simply say something assuring or familiar, or present some gift that displays the bond you share rather than actually touch you. If it is affection then skin to skin is best, but keep it conservative and discreet. Touch someone's sleeve, and then slide from their sleeve to just touch their wrist. Maybe put your hand on something they are holding and you hold it together with the skin of your hands touching.

The only physical contact should be the drops of your blood splattering on me after the duel over you bumping into me last Friday in court.

Sheesh... "touching" is something only savages do, and we are FAR from Ide lands at the moment!

(But seriously, you don't touch in public... save that for the hot springs )

Thanks everyone! You've all been very helpful. This has always been one of my biggest hangups with the setting and it's good to know my misapprehension of it was the culprit.

On a related note, do brothels exist in Rokugan and if so, is it possible for a samurai to frequent one without losing honor, provided they do so discreetly and obviously not during "business hours?"

10 minutes ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Thanks everyone! You've all been very helpful. This has always been one of my biggest hangups with the setting and it's good to know my misapprehension of it was the culprit.

On a related note, do brothels exist in Rokugan and if so, is it possible for a samurai to frequent one without losing honor, provided they do so discreetly and obviously not during "business hours?"

Courtesans exist, I believe you could find them as part of a geisha house 'service menu'

Samurai probably wouldn't lower him/herself to street protitutes

Discretion IS an issue. Less on moral grounds than as a potential insult to a spouse and her family

Visiting a prostitute is not dishonorable, and getting to bed a famous guy or girl is probably something to gain Glory for, especially if it's someone who is known for being picky in lovers (in 侠客风云传 Tale of Wuxia, there is a pretty nice storyline about this with a super-famous and desired courtesan who is insanely hard to get a meeting with). What is dishonorable is being indiscreet when you are married. It's kind of like masturbating - people will assume you do it, but your family boss and husband definitely dont want it to be a topic of jokes and "behind the fan" giggling conversations insinuating that your husband isn't good enough, and that his family apparently is getting the short stick with you, and so on.

So basically "do whatever you want, just don't provide enemy courtiers with mud to sling at you by being indiscreet".

8 hours ago, Ide Yoshiya said:

Thanks everyone! You've all been very helpful. This has always been one of my biggest hangups with the setting and it's good to know my misapprehension of it was the culprit.

On a related note, do brothels exist in Rokugan and if so, is it possible for a samurai to frequent one without losing honor, provided they do so discreetly and obviously not during "business hours?"

Brothels certainly do exist - and there is an etiquette and hierarchy of them as well which market to different levels of indulgence and class. Think about it like food - at the top end there are restaurants which include appetizers, fine wine, live music by a classic pianist and possibly a floor you can dance on. You don't go there to eat (carnal desires) but rather to enjoy a meal with entertainment. Then there are more standard restaurants which have fresh dishes, but are more "eateries" but the food is of a sufficient level of quality that you would pay more for it, and you will have a "sit down" dinner. This scales down to the fast food joins and taco trucks. Fast food is cheap and greasy, you are there to eat and you may just drive through to stuff your gut without relishing the meal. It's there to satisfy your needs, not indulge your desires. Taco trucks and travel to catch people where they are, and may provide something more exotic a restaurant may not offer, but the modern deconstructed ensemble of food stuffs may appeal to some and make others retch...

At the top there are entertainers who are beautiful, skilled in dance and poetry, and conversation (an important skill as it allows the patron to participate and even feel like they are at the star of the show, especially if they have difficulty being social themselves) and other manner of entertainment. These are strictly no-touch zones. You may spend a great deal of money, and give expensive gifts before you could even spend the night with one, and even then - there may be a chaperone. A very rich patron may even take on one of these entertainers as their personal companion taking them exclusively to their home to live with them. At this point they may become a type of concubine, but it is the skilled entertainment they offer that is highly valued - even if there are allusions to more risque affairs. There is certainly some apatite and satisfaction going on, but the focus is significantly elevated.

Down the line there are places that are still respected, and still focus on entertainment, but aren't as elaborate or expensive and do get a bit more down to earth with your meal. You may come in for the night but becoming attached to these girls isn't as socially acceptable as the higher class entertainers. The reputation for pleasurable stays is too strong for anyone to overlook that element to truly appreciate their other gifts. These places are clean, and Samurai may spend a great deal of time and money here. It is perfectly acceptable for them to visit, but the people there are considered definitively beneath them.

Further down the line are the fast food and food trucks - Places where you simply go to get a bed and a body for a quick reprieve and you're on your way. The quality and cleanliness declines and a Samurai who visit these may be looked down upon in society. There are travelling entertainers as well who may offer more risky entertainment that would be considered reprehensible in public. Because they travel they can disguise themselves, and advertise to their clientele discreetly and stay off the radar but being caught here may mean being abandoned as a ronin, or even executed to clean your family of your dishonor.

Samurai may wear a disguise to conceal their identity when visiting any level of establishment but the amount of disguise they need depends on their status, and the status of the house they are visiting. For a higher noble to visit any pleasure house they would need to cover their face, but they may not need to remove their clan mon. Going anywhere lower would require a more elaborate disguise. Rank and file samurai may go to a well respected place openly, but may conceal their face if they go to a lower place, and may remove their clan mon so as to not bring disgrace to their clan. Visiting a fast food level place may not even need a disguise because you can be in and out so quickly. You may just need to check to ensure you are not noticed and pay the owner (not the geisha) a tip to keep your name off the books. Food truck style would require full disguise, and may even require a routine throughout the day to provide alibi and a diversion.

edit: I wanted to also tack on that this is not gender specific. Even in the real Japan this is based on there were courtesans who were male and female.

1 hour ago, shosuko said:

At the top there are entertainers who are beautiful, skilled in dance and poetry, and conversation (an important skill as it allows the patron to participate and even feel like they are at the star of the show, especially if they have difficulty being social themselves) and other manner of entertainment. These are strictly no-touch zones.

I'm not sure that last point is true. Even high-end geisha may engage in a lot more physical contact than a samurai woman would -- not sleeping with their patrons (not unless the proper and incredibly expensive arrangements are made), but casual touches during an encounter, sure.

And in general, it's worth bearing in mind that geisha =/= prostitutes. It may be possible to sleep with a geisha, but that is not the primary purpose of the fancy ones; they're entertainers and (after a fashion) therapists. And there are plenty of prostitutes who only sell sex, without all the refined skills. Visiting a geisha is fine, even if you're married, so long as you don't disgrace yourself by falling in love with her or bankrupt yourself in the process. Visiting a prostitute is common, but much less acceptable, because it's as good as advertising that you can't control your desire, which is one of the Three Sins.

Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu has a episode that reminds me of this thread. Protag is a rather insecure and introverted person, and one of the characters he interacts with is a geisha, who does her usual routine to open him up. The way she uses touching and the way he reacts to it is shown pretty well. It's one of the first episodes of season 1.

4 minutes ago, WHW said:

Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu has a episode that reminds me of this thread. Protag is a rather insecure and introverted person, and one of the characters he interacts with is a geisha, who does her usual routine to open him up. The way she uses touching and the way he reacts to it is shown pretty well. It's one of the first episodes of season 1.

I've not heard of this one. I'll have to give it a look!

Is it improper to high five someone.....

in the face.........

with my foot?

6 hours ago, Kinzen said:

Think of it this way: if you're from a culture that doesn't use kissing as a casual way to say "hello," you're going to feel awkward if someone does that to you, or if you see two people who aren't family greeting each other in that fashion. Same thing for Rokugani with hugging, shaking hands, touching people on the arm or shoulder while talking to them, etc. It isn't OH MY SWEET KAMI WHAT HAVE YOU DONE, it's just . . . awkward and a little embarrassing.

But of course there are situations in which it's totally okay. Bushi, for example, undoubtedly wind up in a lot of physical contact during their training.

I once heard a story about a Japanese father. He had been learning about positive family examples. So he and his wife talked about it and one morning in front of their two kids they kissed. The four year old screamed.

'Daddy! Why are you biting mommy?!'

4 hours ago, shosuko said:

Brothels certainly do exist -

edit: I wanted to also tack on that this is not gender specific. Even in the real Japan this is based on there were courtesans who were male and female.

This is not really connected but random facts.

The first geisha were men. the name has something to do with drums I think?

Also the idea of geisha being prostitutes came about from Westernernera not getting it.

2 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Is it improper to high five someone.....

in the face.........

with my foot?

That's.....not a high five ☠️?

2 hours ago, Devin-the-Poet said:

This is not really connected but random facts.

The first geisha were men. the name has something to do with drums I think?

Taikomochi -- literally "drum bearer." They were sort of jesters, and then that segued into entertainers, and then you started getting "female geisha," which today is the only type people think of.

And it was partially a matter of Westerners not getting it, but also prostitutes billing themselves as "geisha" because the word had more cachet.

5 hours ago, WHW said:

Shouwa Genroku Rakugo Shinjuu has a episode that reminds me of this thread. Protag is a rather insecure and introverted person, and one of the characters he interacts with is a geisha, who does her usual routine to open him up. The way she uses touching and the way he reacts to it is shown pretty well. It's one of the first episodes of season 1.

This was apparently a very common thing: samurai would go to geisha not (only) for sex or entertainment, but because it was the one place where they could drop their social mask and just be themselves. Considering how rigid samurai culture was, this is a big deal.