So Lion is swarm, crane is politics, crab is military/sacrifice, Phoenix is honor running/ring manipulation, dragon is fate manipulation, unicorn is mobility and scorpion is dishonor and ninja.

What would you do with Naga? Would you give them something like old ranged attacks? Would you go with swarming?

At the risk of drawing the ire of a lot of old players, I personally hope that Naga, Nezumi and Spider are kept outside the card game, or added as neutral cards/part of existing clans if really needed.

First of all, 7 factions already require a lot of work to maintain balance and develop the meta within an LCG. Adding more would simply diluite the pool growth.

At the same time, the story is for me about human clans struggling in a world full of monsters, gods and supernatural beings. If those beings become playable, I feel they would lose a lot of their "mistery", as they would require their own novels/stories that would unveil the real motivations, actions and plans.

First - what franzvong said. Its best if they keep this to the 7 clans. The ol5R game didn't release every clan every set... and it created some real balance issues where clans would go several sets without any real additions. Then a set comes out that gives Lion and Spirit and Shadow a stronghold and it just degrades the game... In an LCG I would hope that every clan received good representation every set, and for that 7 clans is already a lot... These cards can be added in as neutral dynasty cards which can help certain deck themes emerge but giving them their own stronghold is too much. Once these things are added, its practically impossible to remove them and the snowball effects kicks in so we have a spirit stronghold, shadow, ninja, shadowlands, kolat, each minor clan, monk, rat, naga, ogre, goblin, maho, iuchiban, lbs, ivory kingdom, barbarians from across the seas, and Ki-Rin... Its just too much.

Secondly - if Naga do exist and get cards (faction / stronghold or not) I would like them to be a synergy focused card like the slivers from MTG. Each Naga will have its own bonus it gives to the collective that is weak on its own, but several of them together can be potent such as 2 cost, 1/1/1 - every other naga in play gets +1 mil. 2 cost, 1/1/1 - every other naga in play gets +1 pol. 2 cost, 1/1/1 - every other naga in play gets +1 glory. As fun as it would be to take this to the extreme of creating a faction / stronghold, or even adding meaningful abilities such as "every other naga in play gains Action: when this personality is in a conflict, bow to bow an opposing personality" to the spill over... it becomes too consuming and often blows up certain meta situations... I think simply having a naga for each prime stat that is over-costed for just 1 to be in play, but breaks even with 2-3 and is an advantage with 4+ is good enough especially with the fate mechanic that makes it tougher to keep multiple personalities in play for several turns.

As much as I like the Naga, I'm on the side of keeping the playable factions at a minimum. I wish Mantis were playable, but at the same time I don't want them to be in the game and two tiers behind everybody else.

We haven't seen the complete core set yet. Wait a bit before adding factions to the game.

But should they add a faction, Mantis first!

I think you could probably get them very close to what they were. Some sort of Naga Commander to boost the rest of the Naga for military. Dashmar to get boosted politically by all the Naga. Forests as holding types and some Naga that interact or get boosted by forests. Shapeshifting at the cost of fate. Maybe a covert scout type......etc

We haven't seen ranged attacks yet so I'd avoid that for the time being. I think if any faction outside the Shadowlands has a shot to make it back, Naga would be just as good as any. If they hadn't been so terrible in Old5R I'd have likely played them. I hope they are back in the game in some minor way but if rather spend a little time with the major clans and a slow trickle of others non major clan forces. Then maybe after each major clan has had a booster or two, reveal some new faction(s).

Sorta on topic - but more on the subject of clan loyalty, and clan diversity and inclusiveness for these other factions... What if they didn't do a single box with 1 copy of every clan card, but rather did a core set for each clan that came with a playset of all clan cards and neutral cards. If you want to splash or build all clans you can buy multiple clans, but this way we aren't stuck with a super thin 7-clans-in-1-box game.

Do you think this is an alternative model the LCG could adopt? Would this make it easier to add extra factions to the game?

40 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Sorta on topic - but more on the subject of clan loyalty, and clan diversity and inclusiveness for these other factions... What if they didn't do a single box with 1 copy of every clan card, but rather did a core set for each clan that came with a playset of all clan cards and neutral cards. If you want to splash or build all clans you can buy multiple clans, but this way we aren't stuck with a super thin 7-clans-in-1-box game.

Do you think this is an alternative model the LCG could adopt? Would this make it easier to add extra factions to the game?

You have to consider that there are a lot of tokens, manuals and other shenanigans in the box that would make the price a bit high if a player wants to have all 7.

I actually would like to see a deluxe version, with the same components but all cards x3, maybe at double the cost of the standard core. I really don't like ending up with 3 boxes, or hunting for singles online...

The thing you do with Naga is not bring them in to the game. It's simple, really.

lets not...

If they absolutely have to be in the game, I'd rather see them done through conflict cards. Naga themed events and neutral conflict characters, with the very occasional Clan aligned dynasty character.

Same for Spider, same for Nezumi.

18 minutes ago, Fumo said:

If they absolutely have to be in the game, I'd rather see them done through conflict cards. Naga themed events and neutral conflict characters, with the very occasional Clan aligned dynasty character.

Same for Spider, same for Nezumi.

Same for Mantis ?

1 hour ago, Sparks Duh said:

The thing you do with Naga is not bring them in to the game. It's simple, really.

I agree with you wholeheartedly. But what about the lore? Do you think they shouldn't exist in the new L5R, or do you think they could exist, but just not be a playable faction?

I'd be OK with a few unaligned Naga here and there, as neutral characters.

I'd like to see several nonhuman races combine as one faction, sort of a new version of the 'Alliance of Five Races' that existed in the distant past (well, it did in the original version of Rokugan. anyway).

Granted, adding even one more faction is tricky for maintaining balance, and the Mantis are much more likely to become a full faction in this game. Even Shadowlands / Spider has a better chance, though they might create even more mechanics issues than non-Shadowlands nonhumans would.

I'll be very disappointed if we don't at least see Naga, Ratlings, and a Kenku once in a while as at least neutral characters. Maybe a story prize occasionally that lets people have one of them join their Clan.

As for precedence from 'Old5R', Naga were a playable faction even before Shadowlands and Yoritomo's Alliance / Mantis had strongholds (and waaaay before Spider). They went away for quite awhile at one point, but not before being in the game for several years. Also, the Naga were set to fully return as a faction in the next CCG release.

Before the great purge that came with Gold Edition, there went from 14 'clans'. Gold cut it down to 8; the original 7 plus Shadowlands. Mantis and the Ratlings both returned after a bit, and for awhile they stuck with 9, then went back down to 8 again (poor Ratties. At least they went out as Big D@amn Heroes, though the story about all that was rather silly).

Obviously, 14 factions wouldn't work, as it did indeed to several factions getting maybe 1 card per set. However, once it's time for the first or second Deluxe Box Set of the L5R LCG, I think they might be able to go to 8, and maybe 9 eventually, while still managing reasonable balance in card power levels, diverse mechanics, and inclusion in sets. The later would probably only allow the newer faction(s) to get cards every other release or so, but it's been done in other LCGs with at least moderate success.

4 hours ago, Bayushi Nono said:

Same for Mantis ?

Would actually be fine with this too. The Mantis' mercenary roots seems to fit perfectly with them existing as conflict personalities to me.

3 hours ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

Before the great purge that came with Gold Edition, there went from 14 'clans'. Gold cut it down to 8; the original 7 plus Shadowlands. Mantis and the Ratlings both returned after a bit, and for awhile they stuck with 9, then went back down to 8 again (poor Ratties. At least they went out as Big D@amn Heroes, though the story about all that was rather silly).

Obviously, 14 factions wouldn't work, as it did indeed to several factions getting maybe 1 card per set. However, once it's time for the first or second Deluxe Box Set of the L5R LCG, I think they might be able to go to 8, and maybe 9 eventually, while still managing reasonable balance in card power levels, diverse mechanics, and inclusion in sets. The later would probably only allow the newer faction(s) to get cards every other release or so, but it's been done in other LCGs with at least moderate success.

History nitpick: at the end of Jade, there were 15 factions: The original 6 (Scorpion were not a playable clan in the initial set), plus Scorpion, Naga, Monks, Shadowlands, Toturi's Army, Yoritomo's Alliance(Mantis), Ninja, Spirit, and Ratling. Ratling was a promo stronghold from one of the initial special card sets(Heroes of Rokugan) and did not have its own starter deck for quite a while; I suspect it would have not been intended to be Gold legal once they chose to purge factions but it was printed a while before Gold came out and had the Gold bug on it already. Gold released with 8 starter decks, the 7 great clans plus Shadowlands. Later sets in the cycle brought in Mantis and Ratling (as an actual widely available stronghold).

Naga were due to come back to the AEG game in Onyx, right? And most of the art was already done for that? So FFG has a small pile of unused naga art sitting around that they'll ant to do something with.

This art could be used for a lot of things different from the LCG. There will most certainly be boardgames, a miniature game (or a couple of such games) and maybe another card game (but not a ccg or a lcg).

FFG have repeatedly stated they bought the IP not just for the LCG. I can't wait to see all the derived games. But keep the LCG clean with a limited number of factions, please.

I just want to point out that FFG seems to do well with 8 factions in Game of Thrones

7 hours ago, Togashi Gao Shan said:

I'd like to see several nonhuman races combine as one faction, sort of a new version of the 'Alliance of Five Races' that existed in the distant past (well, it did in the original version of Rokugan. anyway).

Granted, adding even one more faction is tricky for maintaining balance, and the Mantis are much more likely to become a full faction in this game. Even Shadowlands / Spider has a better chance, though they might create even more mechanics issues than non-Shadowlands nonhumans would.

I'll be very disappointed if we don't at least see Naga, Ratlings, and a Kenku once in a while as at least neutral characters. Maybe a story prize occasionally that lets people have one of them join their Clan.

As for precedence from 'Old5R', Naga were a playable faction even before Shadowlands and Yoritomo's Alliance / Mantis had strongholds (and waaaay before Spider). They went away for quite awhile at one point, but not before being in the game for several years. Also, the Naga were set to fully return as a faction in the next CCG release.

Before the great purge that came with Gold Edition, there went from 14 'clans'. Gold cut it down to 8; the original 7 plus Shadowlands. Mantis and the Ratlings both returned after a bit, and for awhile they stuck with 9, then went back down to 8 again (poor Ratties. At least they went out as Big D@amn Heroes, though the story about all that was rather silly).

Obviously, 14 factions wouldn't work, as it did indeed to several factions getting maybe 1 card per set. However, once it's time for the first or second Deluxe Box Set of the L5R LCG, I think they might be able to go to 8, and maybe 9 eventually, while still managing reasonable balance in card power levels, diverse mechanics, and inclusion in sets. The later would probably only allow the newer faction(s) to get cards every other release or so, but it's been done in other LCGs with at least moderate success.

Yoritomo's Alliance worked because there were minor clans seeking better representation. I never liked that they all became the Mantis Clan, as it took away the identities of some other clans. I wouldn't mind Yoritomo's Alliance to exist again, but kept as a tool to allow players to represent minor clans rather than solidifying it as a great clan. When Yoritomo's Alliance became Mantis Clan we lost wasp, fox, hare, dragonfly, and so many other smaller factions. Some were absorbed into Mantis, losing their own identity, and others were simply forgotten. I'm not sure if Yoritomo's Alliance is the best way to do this, but I do like the idea of allowing a player to have some deck focus on being minor clans. The same can be said for Toturi's Army. Obviously it wouldn't happen exactly the same way again, but to have an unalligned stronghold can also be useful to allow players to enact their fantasy, which is important to a game. Yojimbo and 7 Samurai both appeal to the "ronin" fantasy, and L5R may want to consider how to keep them in the mix... I don't know if strongholds are the best way to do this, but there should be an avenue to embrace the identity.

I'm a bit torn - on one hand it lends to the story thematic to have certain factions rise and fall. As long as they aren't considered "evergreen" and are added for a season and then dropped that's fine, but I wonder if there is a better way...

We don't know what the Role cards are yet - some speculate they may be like the Sensei cards from before. We do know that they augment deckbuilding. They could be the best avenue to allow these other factions to get play. This keeps the game and story focused on the 7 great clans, as it should be - but then allows you to have these other elements. The Role card could be what lets a player be ratling, shadowlands, kolat, minor clans, ect while using a great clan stronghold as an avenue for them to enter the main stage. The Role cards could also represent alliances, maybe giving you a little extra influence if you ally with a certain clan. There can be other mechanical trade offs, but just announcing your splash with a role card is already a penalty.

The only problem I have with making Naga/Ratlings/Minor Clans/etc. neutral is that either the card pool will be rather limited, or else eventually you'll have some decks full of just neutral cards and nothing else. Maybe this isn't too bad, and FFG isn't concerned. However, if this could become an issue, I think it would make sense to have Non-Clan cards. Neutral cards essentially belong to every clan, and Non-Clan cards would essentially belong to no clan, requiring Influence to use them (they would probably have a black/dark-gray background to contrast with the Neutral white/light-gray).

Of course, this would only work for Conflict cards. If Dynasty cards were made, perhaps a sensei (or LCG equivalent) could be printed with text like, "You may include up to 10 Non-Clan cards in your Dynasty deck."

To answer the thread question, I'd do a mix of something similar to what they are doing with tattooed monks currently and some discard pile manipulation. Basically, Naga that give/take effects/stats from other Naga, or swap themselves with other Naga. That I feel would be very fitting with their Akasha, and would be mechanically interesting.

On the topic of "don't dilute the pool", I can understand this worry very much, but I wonder what people would think of them doing like what they did in Netrunner, with the 3 minor runners in one of their deluxe boxes? For those who don't follow NR, in a Deluxe box they released three new faction, but with a much higher influence base. They then didn't give them any support for a long while, I want to say they only have seen 1 pack with anything new for them? So they exist, if you want to run them, but they don't really touch the card pool much from set to set, and don't get much focus. Would people be willing to accept that? I know technically we are at the mercy of FFG's choices, but I am curious what others think.

Conquest had 9 faction at the end and it didn't really feel like any one faction was getting shorted. Well Tyranids maybe, but that had more to do with the fact that they couldn't ally with anyone to up their options.

If they put Nezumi in the game as a separate faction I'd play them in a heart beat. I doubt they will though. I think if any faction has a shot it's Mantis because they easily fit into the established mechanics. For everything else I'd be hesitant. I'd be okay with these types of former factions being themes in the neutral card pool or some sort of mini faction you can ally with, but not a deck by themselves. That way the honor/dishonor system doesn't feel like such a stretch. Also it doesn't spread the card pool too thin across each Dynasty pack. That seems easier to implement.

I think in Old5R the factions worked, military was a main way to win and decks focused on that, etc. But now with each character having a political skill, how does it make sense for a non-clan faction to play out? I mean think about it, do the Nagas have magistrates at court who are arguing against the Crane and Scorpion? Or any other faction? I don't see Oni or Nezumi showing up in dress attire. So do these factions eliminate political conflict all together? That really defeats a core mechanic of the game. In Old5R it made sense, they didn't care about honor so that was fine, but now the rules center on more than just go destroy your opponent, it factors in the politics and that just doesn't make sense with the other factions, so I don't think the rules allow for outside factions unless they are new clans like Mantis or Spider. That being said I am fine if we stay at 7, I like the old ones, but I would rather there be more cards for each clan and better stories that are told than try to expand a game with 7 factions. Magic does fine with 5 factions, I think we can survive with 7.

I could almost see Ratlings as Military-only Crab allies.

13 hours ago, Taki said:

So Lion is swarm, crane is politics, crab is military/sacrifice, Phoenix is honor running/ring manipulation, dragon is fate manipulation, unicorn is mobility and scorpion is dishonor and ninja.

What would you do with Naga? Would you give them something like old ranged attacks? Would you go with swarming?

A good pair of boots and a nice bag for my woman. /s