3 hours ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

I would generally suggest not valuing cards on the total of their two strengths, but on the value most likely to be used. In general they will not be able to be at multiple battles, especially the conflict cards as they are normally not the characters that you would load up any unbow mechanics on. Not to totally discount the flexibility of the 3/3 card, but it is not a strength 6 card.

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The flexiblity granted by Ishiken Initiate is due to the total stats to fate ratio she has. Without 6 stat points spread evenly among her two skills, she would not be nearly as flexible. With that dispersement, she can threaten either conflict type. That has value.

The game state changes such that often players may have to use characters in their weaker conflict type. It happens. I'm not apt to dismiss the allocation of skill points to the weaker conflict type for this reason. I understand that other players do, and that's fine too. I think the valuation of versatility will be a discussion point moving forward.

Especially true with Phoenix who have abilities to change the conflict type from MIL to POL as well as changing the contested ring... And we don't even have their card spoils yet! Being 4/4 or 3/3 is strictly superior to 4/- or 3/- even in a MIL conflict with Phoenix.

I would agree that flexibility is valuable, and that a 4/4 is superior to a 4/0 or a 3/0. I would not consider a 4/4 to be superior to Hida Kisada. (7/2).

To me the fact that it is a conflict card means it will normally only be in one conflict, and it could be in either a strong or a weak type (political for lion being weak, military being strong etc). It is my personal play style to emphasize what my strengths are. To me a lion clan card that is 4/0 is stronger than a 2/2 (all other things aside). Obviously if I am losing a political challenge by one point, i would much rather have the 2/2, but in general i value the 4/0 stronger because it directly helps my win condition of military attacks. For a clan that is perfectly balanced a 2/2 could be stronger because you could always push on your opponents weaker side, but that means you are not pushing on his strong side. (for example against lion you would be attacking political since i cant defend it well. Which means if you are defending against my military, you have to dedicate a lot since it is my strong side).

I guess it feels mediocre because it does not excel at anything, but tries to be good at everything. I prefer cards which have a focus. ( I guess balance could be a focus as well, but that is not my personal preference.) If you get pressured into playing it early due to necessity you over pay for it's effect, and the two cost means if you are saving it for a surprise you are putting yourself in a weaker board state just for the surprise. Putting yourself in a position where you are sitting on two fate on the 3rd or 4th challenge feels like you are risking a lot.

I am not saying it is a bad card, I am saying it does not match my play style.

2 hours ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

I guess it feels mediocre because it does not excel at anything, but tries to be good at everything. I prefer cards which have a focus.

I hear you, you definitely need focused cards, but I'm of the opinion that a good deck includes both power cards (focused ones) and flexible cards, although I have no idea what a good mix is. The trick with power cards (Matsu Berserker, Hida Kisada) is that if you already have a lot of that type of strength, then getting more doesn't add much. Essentially, each skill has some sort of diminishing returns. If I already have a double-Katana'd Vengeful Berserker (who can hit 14 Mil by himself with a sacrifice), do I need Hida? Or do I want more Pol to help me defend and potentially break an extra province a turn? If you play pure power cards, you can get swamped by one type, and your draws become inconsistent. Throwing in a few cards that are flexible can really help shore up your weaknesses when you need them, and since conflict characters are already sort of flexible as is, this card seems pretty good for fulfilling that "flexible" role. You can build your dynasty deck with power cards and use this guy as necessary to fill gaps.

4 hours ago, Shosuro Nasunaka said:

I would agree that flexibility is valuable, and that a 4/4 is superior to a 4/0 or a 3/0. I would not consider a 4/4 to be superior to Hida Kisada. (7/2).

To me the fact that it is a conflict card means it will normally only be in one conflict, and it could be in either a strong or a weak type (political for lion being weak, military being strong etc). It is my personal play style to emphasize what my strengths are. To me a lion clan card that is 4/0 is stronger than a 2/2 (all other things aside). Obviously if I am losing a political challenge by one point, i would much rather have the 2/2, but in general i value the 4/0 stronger because it directly helps my win condition of military attacks. For a clan that is perfectly balanced a 2/2 could be stronger because you could always push on your opponents weaker side, but that means you are not pushing on his strong side. (for example against lion you would be attacking political since i cant defend it well. Which means if you are defending against my military, you have to dedicate a lot since it is my strong side).

I guess it feels mediocre because it does not excel at anything, but tries to be good at everything. I prefer cards which have a focus. ( I guess balance could be a focus as well, but that is not my personal preference.) If you get pressured into playing it early due to necessity you over pay for it's effect, and the two cost means if you are saving it for a surprise you are putting yourself in a weaker board state just for the surprise. Putting yourself in a position where you are sitting on two fate on the 3rd or 4th challenge feels like you are risking a lot.

I am not saying it is a bad card, I am saying it does not match my play style.

Except its still 4 for 2 even if you only get 1 conflict... so I don't see how it is bad even assuming its just there for 1 of conflict. Kisada is 7 for 5 by your metric, barring his ability the 4 for 2 is superior. The card does excel at something - it excels at being a strong drop no matter which type of conflict you are in, so long as it is the 3rd or 4th conflict. You can also dump +1 more fate on it and have this character out for a 2nd turn giving you 2 strong final conflicts making him even more efficient. Adding a fate to it makes the flexibility even stronger as your opponent can't escape its stats by running POL first, like they can against Kisada, since the conflict type does not matter.

The card isn't a "balanced, good at nothing" card. Its focused on being a ball of stats for the 2nd wave of conflicts, and it looks like it does that quite well. This isn't a 2/2 instead of a 4/0 or a 0/4, this is a surprise 4/4 for just 2 cost... That is nothing to scoff at.

As far as holding back 2 fate and what that entails... this is the Phoenix clan. They, like the Scorpion, are likely to have much more powerful conflict cards than anyone else. Seeing a Phoenix player able to hold 2 fate back could be very scary as there are a number of options they can pull and you just have to guess. Is it Ishikan Initiate? Is it Display of Power? Will the conflict switch types between MIL and POL? We haven't even had their card spoiler week yet and we're already seeing these options... You also get 1 fate for being the first to pass, and having a quality personality drop from your hand can let you pass much easier to take that fate and then drop this personality later.

Way too many are assuming it's going to be a 4/4 every turn or at the perfect opportunity.

7 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Way too many are assuming it's going to be a 4/4 every turn or at the perfect opportunity.

Its a conflict card. You choose how you play it - why wouldn't it be a 4/4? If your opponent doesn't give you a 2nd conflict you just don't play the card. That is still a win and you can use the 2 fate the next turn. 2 fate is a pretty big advantage, and you still have the card in hand - ie the pressure of the card is not neutralized. Its the best representation of Phoenix Pacifism. Make the opponent pass conflicts leaving you with a building advantage in both fate, and cards in hand - if you keep cards in hand you don't have to bid high to draw - it can choke the opponent out.

45 minutes ago, shosuko said:

Its a conflict card. You choose how you play it - why wouldn't it be a 4/4? If your opponent doesn't give you a 2nd conflict you just don't play the card. That is still a win and you can use the 2 fate the next turn. 2 fate is a pretty big advantage, and you still have the card in hand - ie the pressure of the card is not neutralized. Its the best representation of Phoenix Pacifism. Make the opponent pass conflicts leaving you with a building advantage in both fate, and cards in hand - if you keep cards in hand you don't have to bid high to draw - it can choke the opponent out.

That's just assuming that nothing is going on with the opponent or you have no need to use it or other cards prior to the "perfect" scenario. With cards like the storehouse or even reasonable plays, the opponent doesn't need to bid high after the first bid. That's also assuming they bid high in that first bid.

It just seems like this card is way over valued considering other conflict cards.

27 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

That's just assuming that nothing is going on with the opponent or you have no need to use it or other cards prior to the "perfect" scenario. With cards like the storehouse or even reasonable plays, the opponent doesn't need to bid high after the first bid. That's also assuming they bid high in that first bid.

It just seems like this card is way over valued considering other conflict cards.

What other conflict cards can give you 4/4 for 2? There are some 2 strength for 0 attachments, but while its free it requires you have a personality there, and takes 1 card draw for the 2 effect. This needs no personality there and gives you 4/4 out of 1 card. It lets you pass earlier in the Dynasty phase to grab the extra fate instead of your opponent too - so even if you're going second you can possibly grab the fate and still keep up with the number of personalities on the board.

Measuring versatility is really hard in this game. I don't think we have anywhere close to enough collective gameplay experience to properly evaluate it. You could take a poker value/bluff methodology once you have enough information.

So for example let's say you have a 4/- guy. Over 100 engagements he's only going to be able to participate in military for 4 power. But let's say that 10% of the time he can't participate in military conflicts(conflict type change, covert, Rout, ect) and is needed for political. He provides nothing there. So over 100 conflicts you have 4*90 + 0*10= 360. You would say the expected value of that character in any given turn to be 3.6.

Contrast that with a 4/2 guy. You're always going to want to be military if you can help it. But let's assume the same parameters where an opponent/board state will prevent that character from contributing their military skill 10% of the time. Now you have 4*90+2*10=380. So the expected value of that character on any given turn is 3.8.

There's a number of problems with this thinking.

1) We don't know how often people will play Rally to The Cause vs Elemental Fury. If it's even then you're looking at a 12.5% chance of having the conflict type changed on you because people will be playing one of those two as a non-stronghold province close to 100% of the time. But what if people value one over the other? What if different decks value these provinces differently? What if more provinces like Mori Kuroi get revealed? How does that affect your evaluation of balanced characters vs min/max characters?

2) We still don't have a good idea of how offense vs defense will play out. Crab is quite defensive and Phoenix is looking like it will be that way too. Will someone using Covert to lock out your most relevant stat on defense be devastating or can you get the same value on offense? If you get Routed on offense does that make your guy lose a ton of value because their main stat doesn't do much for you defensively?

3) We don't know how many Doji Challenger-esque effects we will get. The more of these that we get, the more valuable versatility will become.

It may be a long time before we are able to come up with more concrete percentages for main stat usage vs minor stat usage.

^ Exactly - Plus you have Mori Kuroi - void province, Action: During a conflict at this province select one - switch the contested ring with an unclaimed ring (the conflict retains its type) or switch the conflict type (the conflict retains its ring)

This plus Rally to the Cause in Phoenix means you're very likely to have a conflict type switch up on you, so being balanced against Phoenix, as well as Phoenix being balanced are both more important than any normal game.

9 minutes ago, shosuko said:

^ Exactly - Plus you have Mori Kuroi - void province, Action: During a conflict at this province select one - switch the contested ring with an unclaimed ring (the conflict retains its type) or switch the conflict type (the conflict retains its ring)

This plus Rally to the Cause in Phoenix means you're very likely to have a conflict type switch up on you, so being balanced against Phoenix, as well as Phoenix being balanced are both more important than any normal game.

Yeah. There's a pretty reasonable chance that Phoenix can bring that minor stat usage up to 30-40%. That can be devastating to min/max decks. But how often will Phoenix be played? If it's on par with everything else, but not dramatically better, then you only run up against it 15% of the time.

I personally hope more trickery effects come into the game. The more of those that enter the game, the harder it becomes to properly evaluate cards. Gives a pretty big advantage to players who will put in more work on card evaluations.

16 minutes ago, shosuko said:

^ Exactly - Plus you have Mori Kuroi - void province, Action: During a conflict at this province select one - switch the contested ring with an unclaimed ring (the conflict retains its type) or switch the conflict type (the conflict retains its ring)

This plus Rally to the Cause in Phoenix means you're very likely to have a conflict type switch up on you, so being balanced against Phoenix, as well as Phoenix being balanced are both more important than any normal game.

Except that province, the unique, is most likely only placed on your stronghold. It's not going under one of the four regulat ones and the vast majority of people are going to know it's coming when they swing at the stronghold.

That 4/4 for 2 is only that way under a certain set of circumstances. Far more likely is that the card isn't a 4/4. If the response is "I won't play it." then it's the equivalent of a dead card the vast majority of the time.

35 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Except that province, the unique, is most likely only placed on your stronghold. It's not going under one of the four regulat ones and the vast majority of people are going to know it's coming when they swing at the stronghold.

That 4/4 for 2 is only that way under a certain set of circumstances. Far more likely is that the card isn't a 4/4. If the response is "I won't play it." then it's the equivalent of a dead card the vast majority of the time.

First off - It may or may not be under the stronghold, you don't know that. Secondly - there are 2 provinces the Phoenix can use to switch MIL / POL type so even if 1 of them is under the stronghold the other is still guarding a province. It would likely be Rally to the Cause that goes under stronghold, since swapping rings is worthless at that point and RthC swaps type just the same. It may not even be one of these that is under the stronghold either as provinces like Night Raid provide a lot of utility in a final showdown meaning you could have a 50/50 of swapping conflict type as provinces are first uncovered.

16 minutes ago, shosuko said:

First off - It may or may not be under the stronghold, you don't know that. Secondly - there are 2 provinces the Phoenix can use to switch MIL / POL type so even if 1 of them is under the stronghold the other is still guarding a province. It would likely be Rally to the Cause that goes under stronghold, since swapping rings is worthless at that point and RthC swaps type just the same. It may not even be one of these that is under the stronghold either as provinces like Night Raid provide a lot of utility in a final showdown meaning you could have a 50/50 of swapping conflict type as provinces are first uncovered.

Rally to the Cause and Night Raid are both one shots, which do limit their usefulness under a stronghold. Not being placed under the stronghold also means it could be completely random whether or not the card is even revealed or the positive circumstances when revealed.

Id also add that changing the ring can greatly affect the board state, although that depends on the state.

13 minutes ago, Kubernes said:

Rally to the Cause and Night Raid are both one shots, which do limit their usefulness under a stronghold. Not being placed under the stronghold also means it could be completely random whether or not the card is even revealed or the positive circumstances when revealed.

Id also add that changing the ring can greatly affect the board state, although that depends on the state.

How many times in a game is the Stronghold under attack before it is broken? How important is it to buy that 1 more turn? When Revealed effects are only done that one time, but they are strong.

Changing the ring in contest doesn't matter as much during a final showdown. You might get some fate from it, and sure - it can change which triggered abilities you can activate - but against a "focused" force is that triggered ability going to be worth more than swapping MIL / POL?

Why is there an assumption by most of the community that Mori Koroi will be under the stronghold every game? That card being a combo of Elemental Fury and Rally the Cause is insane. Elemental Fury has a pretty strong track record of swinging games. Rally the Cause not as much only because not enough games have been played with it.

Mori Kuroi can win games if played as one of the 4 non-strongholds slots. How often will it win you games by hiding under your stronghold?

1 hour ago, kiramode said:

Why is there an assumption by most of the community that Mori Koroi will be under the stronghold every game? That card being a combo of Elemental Fury and Rally the Cause is insane. Elemental Fury has a pretty strong track record of swinging games. Rally the Cause not as much only because not enough games have been played with it.

Mori Kuroi can win games if played as one of the 4 non-strongholds slots. How often will it win you games by hiding under your stronghold?

The thinking is that against someone like Mil-focused Lion, if you can switch the conflict to Pol, they will flat out not be able to bring enough strength to bear against your stronghold to break it, because you can switch it every turn. Same argument applies to Crane and Mil. This really hinges on whether or not switching the conflict type eats up the type of conflict that was declared, or the one that it was switched to, which we don't know at this point. If you put it on anything but the stronghold, they can go around it. I'd like to try it both ways, myself, but I can see situations where placing under the SH would be a real PITA.

1 minute ago, Casanunda said:

The thinking is that against someone like Mil-focused Lion, if you can switch the conflict to Pol, they will flat out not be able to bring enough strength to bear against your stronghold to break it, because you can switch it every turn. Same argument applies to Crane and Mil. This really hinges on whether or not switching the conflict type eats up the type of conflict that was declared, or the one that it was switched to, which we don't know at this point. If you put it on anything but the stronghold, they can go around it. I'd like to try it both ways, myself, but I can see situations where placing under the SH would be a real PITA.

I can understand why people would want to toss it under the stronghold. My question is why do people act like it's a no brainier? Provinces are way more valuable in the other 4 slots. The only way placing it under your stronghold makes any level of sense is if part of your game plan is to have people swing into your stronghold. Not inconceivable, but so far non of the factions encourage that behavior. All of them want to win the game before an opponent has an opportunity to swing for the win.

11 minutes ago, Casanunda said:

The thinking is that against someone like Mil-focused Lion, if you can switch the conflict to Pol, they will flat out not be able to bring enough strength to bear against your stronghold to break it, because you can switch it every turn. Same argument applies to Crane and Mil. This really hinges on whether or not switching the conflict type eats up the type of conflict that was declared, or the one that it was switched to, which we don't know at this point. If you put it on anything but the stronghold, they can go around it. I'd like to try it both ways, myself, but I can see situations where placing under the SH would be a real PITA.

PITA? sry, I'm not familiar with that, what does that mean?

I was thinking about the mil / pol swap, and whether that eats up that conflict or not - but I assume it does not. I assume you are able to declare 1 of each, if that changes after that step it doesn't matter. This means swapping a Crab offense to POL leaves them with 2 POL conflicts that turn.

I've not played the game yet - but putting it under the stronghold seems risky to me in that you give up the up front power. Sure you have the guaranteed "they must win on this province to win" but at that point it may be too late. They've had every turn of the game to set up for it. Even though its a chance they run into it otherwise, the Phoenix would have 2 chances to have them run into this.

I'll certainly be playing it both ways to try it out once the Phoenix cards are spoiled and even after the game is out.

'PITA' means "Pain In The A$$".

6 hours ago, kiramode said:

I can understand why people would want to toss it under the stronghold. My question is why do people act like it's a no brainier? Provinces are way more valuable in the other 4 slots. The only way placing it under your stronghold makes any level of sense is if part of your game plan is to have people swing into your stronghold. Not inconceivable, but so far non of the factions encourage that behavior. All of them want to win the game before an opponent has an opportunity to swing for the win.

Honor rocket Phoenix seems plausible, given the card pool. Stick the one province you know they can't take under the box, and put on pretty fire shows or whatever else the Phoenix are supposed to do to make them "honourable" (like stealing the Air ring) and wait it out. The rest of your provinces are a speed bump, you just need time. They do seem fairly defensive so far, at least.

Remember that you need to break 3 other provinces before being allowed to attack the Stronghold. So it makes some sense to have other provinces being difficult to attack.

14 hours ago, shosuko said:

Its a conflict card. You choose how you play it - why wouldn't it be a 4/4? If your opponent doesn't give you a 2nd conflict you just don't play the card. That is still a win and you can use the 2 fate the next turn. 2 fate is a pretty big advantage, and you still have the card in hand - ie the pressure of the card is not neutralized. Its the best representation of Phoenix Pacifism. Make the opponent pass conflicts leaving you with a building advantage in both fate, and cards in hand - if you keep cards in hand you don't have to bid high to draw - it can choke the opponent out.

Lol, I can easily assume this won't be a 4/4 about 90% of the time. It seems people are highly delusional on how many rings get claimed in a round.

If you were to believe that every round of every game that you would have this card in your and 3 rings were claimed when you played her and you had 2 fate in your pool to do so then you should go play the lottery, because your luck is exceptionally good.

and as you are waiting for this opportunity to make her worth playing she is nothing more than a dead card in your hand. I'd imagine that it'll be sitting in many players hands right next to Fallen In Battle.

If every argument is that she is always going to be sone magical 4/4 for 2 fate, then you can also assume that I always have an Assassinate and 24 honor.

40 minutes ago, Silverfox13 said:

Lol, I can easily assume this won't be a 4/4 about 90% of the time. It seems people are highly delusional on how many rings get claimed in a round.

If you were to believe that every round of every game that you would have this card in your and 3 rings were claimed when you played her and you had 2 fate in your pool to do so then you should go play the lottery, because your luck is exceptionally good.

and as you are waiting for this opportunity to make her worth playing she is nothing more than a dead card in your hand. I'd imagine that it'll be sitting in many players hands right next to Fallen In Battle.

If every argument is that she is always going to be sone magical 4/4 for 2 fate, then you can also assume that I always have an Assassinate and 24 honor.

The argument is that you have to consider she may get dropped, just like any other card. She is not going to be the only card in hand. She is a card that if your opponent has 2 fate you must consider and play around. Hence she can create pressure even as a 3/3. Is she overpowered, no. Is she playable, yes. How powerful is she going to be well we shall have to wait and see.

I never understand how people look at cards and say that it is not as good as some other card, there is always more and less powerful cards. That does not make other the less powerful cards unplayable.

1 hour ago, Silverfox13 said:

Lol, I can easily assume this won't be a 4/4 about 90% of the time. It seems people are highly delusional on how many rings get claimed in a round.

If you were to believe that every round of every game that you would have this card in your and 3 rings were claimed when you played her and you had 2 fate in your pool to do so then you should go play the lottery, because your luck is exceptionally good.

and as you are waiting for this opportunity to make her worth playing she is nothing more than a dead card in your hand. I'd imagine that it'll be sitting in many players hands right next to Fallen In Battle.

If every argument is that she is always going to be sone magical 4/4 for 2 fate, then you can also assume that I always have an Assassinate and 24 honor.

A ring is claimed for every battle. Any turn that gets a 4th conflict will have 3 rings claimed during it. I'm not sure how often people pass on conflicts, but the Phoenix are a balanced clan and should have no problems pressuring both MIL and POL types. At the minimum you can force it to be a 3/3, and getting this as a 4/4 is certainly NOT winning the lottery. How often do you have 2 extra fate? Well first off - you can safely buy 1 less character during dynasty since you have it to play down from your hand later. Saving the dynasty buy you pass first and you get +1 more fate.

As for her being a dead card - this is Phoenix. They can have several cards in their hand such as Display of Power which could also be options to use the fate. You don't have to force Ishiken Initiate like you're going to lose if you don't play her, but if it goes to a 4th conflict BAM 4/4 for 2. Its not even a combo, you literally just need the card in hand and the fate on the table. If you don't have that opportunity because your opponent can't pressure 2 conflicts a turn, then you pocket that fate for next turn and maintain the momentum advantage.