So this was pointed out on the Mynock facebook page. Figured I'd pose the question to you fine folks.

Relevant card text first --

Constable Zuvio:

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When you reveal a reverse maneuver, you may drop a bomb using your front guides (including a bomb with the "Action:" header).

Minefield Mapper:

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During setup, after the "Place Forces" step, you may discard any number of your equipped Bomb upgrade cards. Place all corresponding bomb tokens in the play area beyond Range 3 of enemy ships.

"Deathfire"

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When you reveal your maneuver dial or after you perform an action, you may perform a Bomb Upgrade card action as a free action.

So Minefield Mapper tells us to discard the bomb card to place the tokens. "Deathfire" tells us to take the action from the card, and the action on the bomb card tells us to discard the card.

Zuvio just tells us to drop a bomb. Checking the Rules Reference for bombs, there is absolutely no mention made of discarding the card in that section.

So if Zuvio reveals a reverse maneuver, there seems to be no actual rules text telling us that he must discard the bomb card. He can just drop the bomb and carry the card.

BUT WAIT, THERE'S MORE!

Zuvio also doesn't tell us to drop an equipped bomb, but rather to just drop "a bomb," so Zuvio appears to be able to simply drop any bomb he wants when he reveals a reverse maneuver without even needing to have that bomb equipped.

Obviously this isn't how Zuvio is intended to work, but it seems to be how he is written.

The best counterargument I can come up with is that the rules for how a bomb detonates are contained on the bomb upgrade, so if he doesn't have the bomb equipped, then there are no rules for how it detonates, so he can drop any bomb, but only equipped bombs will have any effect. However, I can't see a flaw in the "Zuvio doesn't discard bombs" argument.

Thoughts?

Peculiar argument.

The bomb upgrade cards do say "[...] you may discard this card to drop 1 [name of bomb] token." or "ACTION: Discard this card to drop 1 [name of bomb] token [/token set]." Which would indicate discarding the card is the cost for dropping the token(s), which would suggest the principle that the good Constable does not actually discard the card - much like Extra Munitions discards the token instead of the actual card (thereby dropping a bomb without discarding the upgrade card).

I see the argument, I'm just not quite sure what to make of it.

Furthermore the "Using Bombs Reference Card" makes no mention of discarding the associated upgrade card in order to drop a bomb. But then again it never needed to before as we didn't have a method of dropping a bomb that didn't trigger all the text on the upgrade card...

Well, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but honestly my first thought is that attempting to argue that Zuivio doesn't have to discard bombs in order to drop them is just patently absurd on it's face and it seems ridiculous to even discuss it. Arguing that he could drop a bomb he doesn't have equipped just because it doesn't say "equipped" on the card is even more outlandish.

If you want a rules text argument I would go with this: Other than bomblet generator every single bomb card says "discard this card to drop 1 token" so if you really need something to point to, the text on how to drop a bomb on the cards indicated that discarding the card is part of dropping the bomb. You can "drop a bomb" with Zuvio's ability. How do I do that? I look at the card and it says "discard this card to drop".

As to the question of whether he can drop a bomb he isn't carrying. I honestly don't know how to respond to that really much beyond "of course not". You can't do an action that's not on your action bar, you can't do a maneuver that's not on your maneuver dial, and you can't drop a bomb you don't have. Yes actions and maneuvers you don't inherently have can be granted to you with cards like FCS or Daredevil but in all those cases it specifically says the thing that's extra you can do. If a ship is generically granted a free action it can't suddenly choose from any action in the game, it still has to be on it's action bar. If you're allowed to drop a bomb you have to have a bomb to drop. I really feel that should be self-evident as a base mechanic.

1 minute ago, sharrrp said:

Well, I don't want to sound like a jerk, but honestly my first thought is that attempting to argue that Zuivio doesn't have to discard bombs in order to drop them is just patently absurd on it's face and it seems ridiculous to even discuss it. Arguing that he could drop a bomb he doesn't have equipped just because it doesn't say "equipped" on the card is even more outlandish.

If you want a rules text argument I would go with this: Other than bomblet generator every single bomb card says "discard this card to drop 1 token" so if you really need something to point to, the text on how to drop a bomb on the cards indicated that discarding the card is part of dropping the bomb. You can "drop a bomb" with Zuvio's ability. How do I do that? I look at the card and it says "discard this card to drop".

As to the question of whether he can drop a bomb he isn't carrying. I honestly don't know how to respond to that really much beyond "of course not". You can't do an action that's not on your action bar, you can't do a maneuver that's not on your maneuver dial, and you can't drop a bomb you don't have. Yes actions and maneuvers you don't inherently have can be granted to you with cards like FCS or Daredevil but in all those cases it specifically says the thing that's extra you can do. If a ship is generically granted a free action it can't suddenly choose from any action in the game, it still has to be on it's action bar. If you're allowed to drop a bomb you have to have a bomb to drop. I really feel that should be self-evident as a base mechanic.

I don't disagree that this clearly isn't how Zuvio is supposed to work.

However, Zuvio tells you to drop a bomb, and the rules for how to drop a bomb very explicitly do not tell you to discard any cards. Instead, as you pointed out, all the upgrade cards say "discard this card to drop," which means that when you are dropping a bomb by activating that card, you have to discard the card as a cost. Zuvio, on the other hand, simply tells you to drop a bomb. There is no cost associated with that.

IF, for example, Cluster Mines said, "ACTION: Drop this bomb, etc." and then the reference for dropping a bomb had a line saying "discard the associated upgrade card" then I would agree with your argument. However, the text that tells you to discard the bomb card is on the bomb card itself, and Zuvio's ability gets you around that text. He tells you to simply drop the bomb without needing to pay the associated cost.

Again, I do not think that this is how Zuvio is supposed to work. However, it appears to be what the words on the cards are unambiguously saying.

21 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

You can "drop a bomb" with Zuvio's ability. How do I do that?

You look at the "Using Bombs Reference Card" which makes no mention or statement about discarding any upgrade cards at all. This is exactly why we have reference cards, to tell us how to do things. Dropping a bomb is not explained on the upgrade card itself, it just says that you can/may "drop 1 [name of bomb] token [/token set]." For the keyword "drop" you need to refer to the applicable reference card(s). Specifically (on the above posted Reference Card) "To drop a bomb, follow these steps:" - do the things, and only the things, listed there. Any other things you're instructed to do are part of other game effects and are not part of "dropping a bomb."

I do believe it is implied that you must have the bomb upgrade card equipped, though I will agree this is not explicitly stated. Argument here is that you cannot "drop a bomb" if you have no bomb upgrade cards equipped.

I do believe, as worded - and perhaps this was even the intent, you can in fact "drop a bomb" without discarding the upgrade card with the Constable. The only thing keeping Bomblet Generator equipped is the fact that it does not say on the upgrade card to discard the card in order to (as a cost to) drop 1 [name of bomb] token/token set and the only reason the other bomb upgrade cards are discarded is the fact that, after their game effect trigger, the text you follow explicitly states you need to discard the card as part of the cost to drop the token/token set.

The bomb cards describe two things in the first sentence: the trigger that allows you to drop the bomb and the cost associated with dropping said bomb. Zuvio allows you to substitute "reveal a reverse maneuver"for ACTION: he also allows you to use the front guides for either type of bomb instead of the standard rules requiring the back. At no point does it indicate that you can forgo a cost.

When you look at the bomb reference cards they say "you may discard this card to drop 1 ion bomb token" (or whatever type you've got equipped) after the comma. That is part of "dropping a bomb"

Discarding the card is an inherent cost of dropping a bomb. Zuvio lets you change the trigger condition, he does not absolve you of the cost.

Let's look at another example: The Ghost. If you have the shuttle docked the Ghost is allowed to "perform an additional attack with an equipped turret". Okay, so what if it has a blaster turret equipped but no focus? Is it allowed to still fire even though it can't pay the cost? No it is not, for the same reason it can't attack during the normal combat phase activation if it doesn't have a Focus. The shuttle gives you another trigger for making an attack but does not allow you to ignrore a cost. You have to discard the upgrade card to drop the bomb because that's the cost associated with dropping said bomb.

1 minute ago, sharrrp said:

The bomb cards describe two things in the first sentence: the trigger that allows you to drop the bomb and the cost associated with dropping said bomb. Zuvio allows you to substitute "reveal a reverse maneuver"for ACTION: he also allows you to use the front guides for either type of bomb instead of the standard rules requiring the back. At no point does it indicate that you can forgo a cost.

When you look at the bomb reference cards they say "you may discard this card to drop 1 ion bomb token" (or whatever type you've got equipped) after the comma. That is part of "dropping a bomb"

Discarding the card is an inherent cost of dropping a bomb. Zuvio lets you change the trigger condition, he does not absolve you of the cost.

Let's look at another example: The Ghost. If you have the shuttle docked the Ghost is allowed to "perform an additional attack with an equipped turret". Okay, so what if it has a blaster turret equipped but no focus? Is it allowed to still fire even though it can't pay the cost? No it is not, for the same reason it can't attack during the normal combat phase activation if it doesn't have a Focus. The shuttle gives you another trigger for making an attack but does not allow you to ignrore a cost. You have to discard the upgrade card to drop the bomb because that's the cost associated with dropping said bomb.

Except your example is wrong. Blaster Turret reads Attack (Focus), meaning having focus is a prerequisite to attacking. It is not a cost.

Every bomb except Bomblet Generator reads Action: Discard this card (cost) to drop this bomb (effect). The wording of Zuvio just says "When you do a reverse maneuver (trigger), you may also drop a bomb (effect). The rules cards for bombs do not mention discarding the card at all, only the upgrade does.

2 minutes ago, sharrrp said:

Let's look at another example: The Ghost. If you have the shuttle docked the Ghost is allowed to "perform an additional attack with an equipped turret". Okay, so what if it has a blaster turret equipped but no focus? Is it allowed to still fire even though it can't pay the cost? No it is not, for the same reason it can't attack during the normal combat phase activation if it doesn't have a Focus. The shuttle gives you another trigger for making an attack but does not allow you to ignrore a cost. You have to discard the upgrade card to drop the bomb because that's the cost associated with dropping said bomb.

Attacking is a well defined sequence of events. Specifically, that sequence is defined in the flow-chart in the FAQ on page 8. Step 1(iv) of that sequence is "pay cost to perform the attack (if applicable)." Because of this line, the Ghost must spend a focus to attack with an equipped Blaster Turret.

Dropping a bomb is also a well defined sequence of events. It is defined in the Rules Reference on page 7 and also on the Reference Card that has been cited above. At no point on that Reference Card or in the Rules Reference does it say you must discard a card. That cost is imposed by the bomb upgrade card (which you erroneously refer to as the bomb reference card). Zuvio does not refer to the bomb upgrade card at all. He only says you may drop a bomb. To drop a bomb we follow the well defined sequence of events from the Rules Reference or Reference Card and are thus never instructed to discard a bomb upgrade card.

For 38 points this becomes legal:

Inaldra w/Wingman & Light Syck escorting the Constable with cluster mines.

I will continue to ASSUME that his Ability should include the text: "If the bomb upgrade card normally would instruct you to discard the upgrade card, do so."

3 hours ago, Polaritie said:

Except your example is wrong. Blaster Turret reads Attack (Focus), meaning having focus is a prerequisite to attacking. It is not a cost.

Every bomb except Bomblet Generator reads Action: Discard this card (cost) to drop this bomb (effect). The wording of Zuvio just says "When you do a reverse maneuver (trigger), you may also drop a bomb (effect). The rules cards for bombs do not mention discarding the card at all, only the upgrade does.

Check the card. It also says "Spend one focus token to perform this attack against one ship."

Which is why it's basically never been a playable card.

2 hours ago, sharrrp said:

Check the card. It also says "Spend one focus token to perform this attack against one ship."

Which is why it's basically never been a playable card.

I'm just going to quote myself here:

5 hours ago, Bascaria said:

Attacking is a well defined sequence of events. Specifically, that sequence is defined in the flow-chart in the FAQ on page 8. Step 1(iv) of that sequence is "pay cost to perform the attack (if applicable)." Because of this line, the Ghost must spend a focus to attack with an equipped Blaster Turret.

Dropping a bomb is also a well defined sequence of events. It is defined in the Rules Reference on page 7 and also on the Reference Card that has been cited above. At no point on that Reference Card or in the Rules Reference does it say you must discard a card. That cost is imposed by the bomb upgrade card (which you erroneously refer to as the bomb reference card). Zuvio does not refer to the bomb upgrade card at all. He only says you may drop a bomb. To drop a bomb we follow the well defined sequence of events from the Rules Reference or Reference Card and are thus never instructed to discard a bomb upgrade card.

20 minutes ago, Bascaria said:

I'm just going to quote myself here:

My mistake, I meant to quote polarities right above you and clicked the wrong one.